Profitable Group - is it credible?

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probono

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Tax evasion.

The famous American gangster Al Capone was accused of all sorts of things which everyone knew he had done but could not be proven in a court of law. In the end the US government prosecuted him with tax evasion. I wonder if Profitable Group directors have paid their taxes on the huge profits they made from Boron, Concorde village and others ?
 

angatheart

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What do you think of HK landbanking?

Hi, I heard about landbanking scams such as land that cannot be developed, schemes that overpromise but never deliver. But when I went for a presentation on HK landbanking, it is damn convincing. They talk abt acquring land in New Terrorities which the big boys are quietly acquiring too, the uprising prices in the market, the insurance of the land title, payment via trustee lawyer. It seems very sound. Here's the website. Can anyone take a look and advice? Thanks.

http://www.firstasiaholdings.com/land_prop...quisitions.html
 

Forever84

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u come across how many scams that isn't convincing?

give more details
how they plan to dispose the land
after when
they developer?

here no fortune teller
cannot tell u company future based on name and website
 

R Hess

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did they tell you the remainder leaasehold yrs left on land in NT? For that matter all hk land.You will be suprised.
 

Commander Keen

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Any Profitable Group offices still open ?

Can anyone say if the Profitable Group Singapore Office is still operating ? Has anyone checked with the landlord if they are paying rent?

The Thai office is definitely shut, so is the Indonesia office. Brunei say the office is still there but nobody in it.

Someone posted here that the Malaysia office is still operating with a single person but not sure if she is stil there.

I have it on good authority that at least one Profitable Group director has had his passport seized by Singapore auhtorities while either Tax or CAD investigation takes place so wondering if he still goes to the office or now works from home :s13:
 

DKA-AAA

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brunei office

Can anyone say if the Profitable Group Singapore Office is still operating ? Has anyone checked with the landlord if they are paying rent?

The Thai office is definitely shut, so is the Indonesia office. Brunei say the office is still there but nobody in it.

Someone posted here that the Malaysia office is still operating with a single person but not sure if she is stil there.

I have it on good authority that at least one Profitable Group director has had his passport seized by Singapore auhtorities while either Tax or CAD investigation takes place so wondering if he still goes to the office or now works from home :s13:

i visited the office yesterday, so yeah it is still there with the company label. however nobody was there and it looks like it'll be shut down anytime soon.. but they label at the entrance door says " for any enquiries, please email to tgo..
i assume tgo refers to tim goldring office is it?
 

penelope88

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what could this mean??

Hi All

A PP investor friend of mine just informed about an article on business times today.
"Profitable Plots scores a victory of sorts in the High Court"
Michelle Quah
Wed, Nov 10, 2010
The Business Times

What can this mean?
Is PP is innocent in the eyes of the high court?

" ... Yesterday's proceedings arose after Profitable Plots had, through its lawyer Wendell Wong of Drew & Napier, filed a complaint with the court about the CAD's seizure of its bank accounts, saying it needed the money to pay its staff. The CAD had raided the company's offices in early August and seized the company's documents and frozen its three bank accounts with Citibank which held a total of $277,590. ..."

I really hope that we can get back our capital at least... sigh....
 

probono

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CAD interim report

http://www.singaporelawwatch.sg/rem...ml?utm_source=rss subscription&utm_medium=rss
A CAD investigation report dated Oct 12, submitted as part of the proceedings, showed for the first time that the white-collar crime police had received a total of 106 complaints against Profitable Plots from investors who invested about $9.5 million. The CAD believes Profitable Plots' liabilities and obligations to its clients far exceed its assets, giving the CAD 'grounds to suspect that the company's investment schemes were introduced to defraud its clients'.
The report said that a $25.8 million loss incurred by Profitable Plots and its related companies in FY 2009 and its inability to honour its obligations to the Boron investors gave the CAD grounds to suspect that the investment schemes were concocted to defraud its clients. It compared the complainants' claims amounting to some $9.5 million to the company's cash balance of $277,590. 'In addition, the directors had benefited from the scheme as their reported remuneration in FY08 and FY09 was $4,431,539 and $4,181,174, respectively,' the report said

Yep they all look really innocent to me. They paid all your investment money out in salaries.

To quote Profitable Group website today

"When those people and organisations can say the same as we can - not one client has ever lost money - we may listen. Until then we will continue to provide Strategic Global Products and be a responsible and ethical builder of wealth."

Apparently losing S$25.8 million in a year makes you successful !!

Why did the court authorise paying their salaries I wonder ? Why does Scum always float ?.
 
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anatolian

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Hi All

A PP investor friend of mine just informed about an article on business times today.
"Profitable Plots scores a victory of sorts in the High Court"
Michelle Quah
Wed, Nov 10, 2010
The Business Times

What can this mean?
Is PP is innocent in the eyes of the high court?

" ... Yesterday's proceedings arose after Profitable Plots had, through its lawyer Wendell Wong of Drew & Napier, filed a complaint with the court about the CAD's seizure of its bank accounts, saying it needed the money to pay its staff. The CAD had raided the company's offices in early August and seized the company's documents and frozen its three bank accounts with Citibank which held a total of $277,590. ..."

I really hope that we can get back our capital at least... sigh....

Ah yes, PP is super innocent. They drafted and signed contracts to purchase and deliver Boron using our money saying that they have sold product to their customer, within 6 months they will return back our money. After 6 months, they just ignored us and pretended that they had no obligation to honour the contract and to transfer back the money to us with the interest. CAD has been kind enough to assist us to confront PP. But I guess, high court thinks it is perfectly normal for a company to sign a contract and just breach it.
 

Commander Keen

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S$26 Million loss in a year ?

How did Profitable Group lose nearly S$26 Million in a year:s31:!? They had a revenue stream with hardly any expenses.

They didnt buy any Boron, they had already bought the UK land a long time ago and that was dirt cheap. They paid their sales people on commission only. I hope everyone involved is asking where did the money go?

I bet they bought some real expensive untouchable "asset" offshore.
I hope their books will be made public by the court system
 
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anatolian

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How did Profitable Group lose nearly S$26 Million in a year:s31:!? They had a revenue stream with hardly any expenses.

They didnt buy any Boron, they had already bought the UK land a long time ago and that was dirt cheap. They paid their sales people on commission only. I hope everyone involved is asking where did the money go?

I bet they bought some real expensive untouchable "asset" offshore.
I hope their books will be made public by the court system

It's a sale & purchasing agreement but we, Boron investors, didn't see:
- the Boron product if the shipment didn't take place, or
- our money back if they failed to buy Boron from Boron CLS company
The contract is a sales contract in Boron, how can it has anything to do with land? Excuse me, they cannot just using the money to buy land.

They just simply disappeared. Unfortunately, the court has failed us, I got not trust in Singapore court anymore.
 

Vindi Kate

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CAD has until 9 Dec to present its case, so let's wait till then. Today there is another Business Times article on page 2 on the ridiculous things Goldring said about why they terminated their auditors because the auditors did not understand their business and how he didn't agree with their accounting treatment etc amazing nonsense. Most likely Goldring wanted the financial statements to conceal his actual schemes and not raise too many alarms before he vanishes.

This guy probably has holiday homes, gold bars and cash stashed away some place. Hope they catch all previous directors and make them cough up all the monies they stole from whom they deem as gullible Asian investors.
 

probono

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BT report 2

According to Goldring the whole business is based on a trigger event that can never happen. Take concorde village.

It will never get planning permission
If you dump it today on the open market the site is worth 3M pounds or less and you can only do that if everyone votes in favour in which case they are happy.

Brilliant strategy. You cant prove its a scam until a trigger event that can never happen.


http://www.businesstimes.com.sg/sub/news/story/0,4574,412658,00.html

SINGAPORE) Damning allegations made by the Commercial Affairs Department (CAD) in its investigation report on Profitable Plots provoked a strong response from the company, which has called the report 'wrong and/or inaccurate'.

A CAD investigation report dated October 12, that was submitted as evidence in the proceedings, did not put the company in such a flattering light.

Among other things, the CAD report said that Profitable Plots was insolvent and that there were doubts as to whether Profitable Plots and its related companies could continue as a going concern as there was a net shareholders' deficit position of $21.9 million.

Referring to some of Profitable Plots' investment schemes, the CAD noted that these schemes were described as financing arrangements under the company's revenue recognition policy and that the proceeds from the sale of such plots were not recognised as revenue and were treated as liabilities.

It noted that, for the audited financial statements for FY2008, the liabilities arising from such financing arrangements amounted to $40.2 million, which exceeded Profitable Plots' revenue from the sale of standard plots amounting to $32.8 million.

The CAD said this inability to meet its obligations - and a collective loss of $25.8 million in FY2009 for Profitable Plots and its related companies - gave it reason to believe that the company intended to defraud its clients through its investment schemes. In addition, it pointed out, the company's directors had benefited from the scheme as their reported remuneration in FY2008 and FY2009 was $4.4 million and $4.2 million, respectively.

Profitable Plots director Tim Goldring, in his affidavit, said that CAD's suggestion that the company was unable to meet its liabilities is misleading. He said the company is only liable to pay its clients when a trigger event (which is different in each scheme and can range from planning permission being obtained for a site to a site being sold) occurs in respect of that client's product.

He said, even if these events were to occur, the proceeds from the sale of the sites would be more than enough to cover the liability. 'Therefore, the assertion that the company is insolvent is inaccurate.'

Mr Goldring also said that the services of the company's auditors, YC Foo & Co, were terminated for a similar reason - because they could not understand the company's products, did not understand that the company's liabilities arose only when a trigger event occurred and had applied the wrong accounting principles.

He said the CAD should not have relied on the draft audit report of the company's FY2009 financials, as the company had not approved the report. Instead, he said, the CAD ought to have verified the statements with the company before freezing its bank accounts.

Responding to the CAD's allegation that the company's schemes were introduced to defraud its clients, Mr Goldring said that every client is required to go through a quality assurance form with its staff, before buying a product, to ensure that he understands the nature of the product. 'Obviously this is not cheating,' he said.

The CAD said, in its report, that it had received a total of 106 complaints against Profitable Plots from individuals who invested about $9.5 million. Some investors have written to BT to complain about not having been paid on their investments, which has left them stranded.

The CAD first began its investigations in August. So far, no charges have been levied against Profitable Plots or its directors. The High Court on Tuesday ordered the CAD to update the court on Dec 9 on the status of its probe and to provide further particulars of the nature of any alleged wrongdoing.
 
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wentai80

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What about Boron victims?
The contract stated an expiry date for captial return which is not fulfilled.

This is called breach of contract!

Can't CAD do anything more?

In any case, it's byebye for my $. But the directors ought to be punished!!
 

anatolian

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PP should have focused more into making one of its projects (Phillipines land, CVG, Boron) a success and generate cashflow instead of making a fuzz over $227k. The only reason they keep focusing on unfreezing their bank accounts is because they know that all of those projects were deemed to fail since the start (even on paper). Investors only invested in those projects because PP gave wrong information in land valuation, hiding the fact that it was a green belt, lying that each Boron contract has been presold to major corporations, and a lot more lies we found out later on. Apart from that isn't the definition of ponzi scheme is using new customer money to pay former customer interest amt instead of using the money as per contract; i.e. for purchase of Boron product?
UK court forced PP to be kicked out off UK and to return back UK investors' money but here PP was welcomed warmly even received Singapore Quality Class certificate and Singapore court sided on PP over and over. PP made a fool out of Asian investors and still does.
 
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probono

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Land valuation legal action ?

I was advised by a UK lawyer that grossly misstating the value of land may be the basis for legal action. If you were told that Concorde Village was worth 48m UKP in writing then you might have a case. The land is probably worth less than 3m UKP.

Profitable Group did nothing to enhance the value of the land they purchased for 3m UKP. By splitting it into small plots they have devalued it. They claimed to have a UK planning expert on their board so cannot plausibly deny that the knew the true value of the land or that the land has no realistic opportunity for development.
 

Commander Keen

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Profitable Group - Lawyers paid, staff paid but investors ?

http://www.todayonline.com/Singapor...nvestment-firm-to-be-paid-due-salaries--Court

TODAY ONLINE Dec 01, 2010
Troubled land investment firm Profitable Plots, which is currently under CAD probe, is left with only $60,000. The High Court released more money yesterday from its frozen bank accounts to pay off staff salaries.

The sum remaining may be all that the 106 people who went to the Commercial Affairs Department (CAD), claiming that their investment returns were either delayed or unpaid, can recover should allegations of fraud stand against the firm.

The 106 investors have collectively invested some $9.5 million. Profitable Plots has some 1,000 clients here.

No criminal charges have been pressed against the company. Three of its directors are believed to be assisting investigations by white-collar police following a raid on its Stanley Street premises in August.

According to court documents, a CAD report dated Oct 12 said Profitable Plots' liabilities and obligations to clients far exceed assets, which gives "grounds to suspect that (the company's investment) schemes are introduced to defraud its clients".

Urging the court to release more money, Mr Wong said these employees were let go in the first week of September and have not received their pay since August.

Deputy Public Prosecutor David Khoo argued, however, that no more money should be released until next Thursday, when the Attorney-General's Chambers has to update the court on the CAD's investigations.

Justice Lee Sieu Kin acceded to Mr Wong's application, noting that investigations have not shown the employees to be complicit in any alleged fraud. These employees were left without a job through no fault of theirs and the court has to consider the financial obligations they may be faced with, the judge said.

Justice Lee also asked how much difference it would make to the purported victims even if he were to reject Mr Wong's application, since the company had only $277,000 when the CAD stepped in.
 

probono

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Any update from todays court hearing CAD

Is there any update from todays court hearing ?
I think CAD was supposed to provide a report today.

The CAD first began its investigations in August. So far, no charges have been levied against Profitable Plots or its directors. The High Court on Tuesday ordered the CAD to update the court on Dec 9 on the status of its probe and to provide further particulars of the nature of any alleged wrongdoing.
 

Darth Saulus

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Found this on Todayonline:
Complaints about land banking firm 'total $18m'
by Ng Jing Yng 05:55 AM Dec 10, 2010SINGAPORE -

The potential investment sinkhole that investors with land banking firm Profitable Plots may end up in now appears much larger than before.

It has emerged that the complaints to the Commercial Affairs Department (CAD) involve a sum of about $18 million, almost double the $9.5 million reported previously.

And these 174 complaints are only part of the CAD's preliminary findings. On behalf of the agency, which was supposed to submit its investigation report yesterday, the prosecution asked the court for more time to conclude investigations.

The court also allowed the CAD to continue to hold for the next three months the remaining $55,548 left in Profitable Plots' three bank accounts, pending the investigations.

It was the first time, after two successful applications by the firm's lawyer to unfreeze the firm's accounts, that no monies were released.

Mr Wendell Wong, who had previously clawed back unpaid salaries from the accounts, argued yesterday that the CAD has yet to prove that the balance of funds were tainted or did not belong to his client.

No criminal charges have been pressed against the company, although three of its directors are believed to be assisting investigations following a CAD raid on its Stanley Street premises in August.

Mr Wong also disclosed in court that his client's potential $212-million deal with Filipino parties has been jeopardised due to the alleged fraud investigations.

Among other preliminary findings, the CAD said that the sale of Boron bonds - for which Profitable Plots is acting as a marketing agent for Profitable Group - had exceeded US$2.5 million ($3.3 million) here.
 
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