advice needed.

[Elspeth]

thinkin of puttin in some time to take up learning of a programming lang. hav some basics knowledge in place already. which lang shld i start with? i knw a very tiny little bit of c++ alr. i'm not a comp sci. studied IT and mech engrg. dun hav a formal poly dipl. yet. currently workin as tech support alrd for a few years.. but quite interested in making a switch to becoming a programmer/developer. is it hard becoming one like at entry level? will there be a pay cut? i'm in my early 30s. well its just a thought nothing concrete. i tot of learning .net . any opinions?

 

[davidktw]

thinkin of puttin in some time to take up learning of a programming lang. hav some basics knowledge in place already. which lang shld i start with? i knw a very tiny little bit of c++ alr. i'm not a comp sci. studied IT and mech engrg. dun hav a formal poly dipl. yet. currently workin as tech support alrd for a few years.. but quite interested in making a switch to becoming a programmer/developer. is it hard becoming one like at entry level? will there be a pay cut? i'm in my early 30s. well its just a thought nothing concrete. i tot of learning .net . any opinions?

I think no matte what you are doing, learning programming will helps in your work. In IT line, there is really hardly works that doesn't involve programming which can helps you be more productive and efficient.

Even while you are tech support, will you agree some scripting skill set like vbscript or perl will helps in you automating tasks ? In windows, it can be powershell, on unix it's the shell scripts like bash, tcsh, zsh, ksh, csh, etc

Definitely you are looking at very different paradigm of IT line between tech support and development. I guess if your previous job doesn't offer you leverage into your new job, you can surely expect less compensation, not unless you are lucky to find a boss who thinks otherwise.

There are some good languages like C#, Java, Perl, Shell scripts, Javascripts that you can get yourself familiarise with.

 

[ykgoh]

is it hard becoming one like at entry level?

It is not hard, but it depends on your education and experience. In fact most fresh poly and uni graduates start off doing some programming in software development. Some more (computer science and IT/IS), some less (computer engineering) who get tasked to focus more on network and server infrastructure.

But in SMEs, it is common that one person covers everything (software programming and hardware implementation).

will there be a pay cut?

Generally developers/programmers are paid better than tech support iirc. But at least get an IT diploma, which is the current sweet spot. Degree is over-rated at the present moment.

i'm in my early 30s. well its just a thought nothing concrete. i tot of learning .net . any opinions?

 

[davidktw]

Seriously I don't think a degree is overrated. If one looks at it like an entry ticket then maybe it is. If one consider it as a door opener and an opportunity to be exposed to a lot of leading technological edges, then I will say the money is well spend only if one really took the opportunity to enrich oneself in the process.

It will only be skin deep if you compare how your future employer looks at the piece of paper. It is your knowledge that matters and your knowledge that will eventually decide how far you can stretch.

 

[turingcomplete]

thinkin of puttin in some time to take up learning of a programming lang. hav some basics knowledge in place already. which lang shld i start with? i knw a very tiny little bit of c++ alr. i'm not a comp sci. studied IT and mech engrg. dun hav a formal poly dipl. yet. currently workin as tech support alrd for a few years.. but quite interested in making a switch to becoming a programmer/developer. is it hard becoming one like at entry level? will there be a pay cut? i'm in my early 30s. well its just a thought nothing concrete. i tot of learning .net . any opinions?

First, are you sure you have a passion of programming? If you have hardly written any code in your free time, I kinda doubt that you have the passion to excel in this field which requires constant learning. However, if you do have the passion, it is never too late to switch. Programming is in fact a one of the rare fields where passion is a better performance indicator than experience.

 

[Bonadaly]

I think no matte what you are doing, learning programming will helps in your work. In IT line, there is really hardly works that doesn't involve programming which can helps you be more productive and efficient.

Even while you are tech support, will you agree some scripting skill set like vbscript or perl will helps in you automating tasks ? In windows, it can be powershell, on unix it's the shell scripts like bash, tcsh, zsh, ksh, csh, etc

Definitely you are looking at very different paradigm of IT line between tech support and development. I guess if your previous job doesn't offer you leverage into your new job, you can surely expect less compensation, not unless you are lucky to find a boss who thinks otherwise.

There are some good languages like C#, Java, Perl, Shell scripts, Javascripts that you can get yourself familiarise with.

Technological thinking == Making things more efficient.

 

[davidktw]

Technological thinking == Making things more efficient.

Yes it does, but it does more than just a matter of efficient. It widen the reach of mankind and as a whole, improve the quality of life, think further, be productive and efficient, raising the platform for more advance enablement.

One can't reach the stars with wheel carts, but wheels carts is the first step to enabling movement. As we go higher level, the same methodology applies just with wider reach and greater effect.

 

[Elspeth]

I think no matte what you are doing, learning programming will helps in your work. In IT line, there is really hardly works that doesn't involve programming which can helps you be more productive and efficient.

Even while you are tech support, will you agree some scripting skill set like vbscript or perl will helps in you automating tasks ? In windows, it can be powershell, on unix it's the shell scripts like bash, tcsh, zsh, ksh, csh, etc

Definitely you are looking at very different paradigm of IT line between tech support and development. I guess if your previous job doesn't offer you leverage into your new job, you can surely expect less compensation, not unless you are lucky to find a boss who thinks otherwise.

There are some good languages like C#, Java, Perl, Shell scripts, Javascripts that you can get yourself familiarise with.

actually not really. hardly touch any programming in my line of simple tech support which i consider is entry level. only occasionally would req scripting here n thre. i'm a few yrs now in support role. been thru smes, si, mnc,...

why i tot of taking up prgramming or coding is cos i feel and i realise i'm at the bottom of the food chain and ladder. and i really need to progress before its really too late in life.

wats a gd lang to start wif out of all those u listed?

yea but i hope wif a dip and if i manage to keep this interest or hobby of self learning coding alive for the next few yrs to be able to secure at least a decent entry level programming job wif no pay cut. since i dun hav a dip now.

i'm actually planning to study nyp's pt time dip but its more into sys admin and has only 1 module of programming and i very well knw its gona be c++ again. since i took this course before.

 

[Elspeth]

this forum like quite quiet hor. i guess not many aspire to become programmers/software developers.

thru out my time doin IT at basic level, i notice and observed alot of developers are FTs, sad to say. guess maybe i'm not exposed wide enuf. lots of indians,myanmmar,tiongs, and even our frenly neigbours m'sians. guess some of em can settle for lower pay so coys take them rite.

feel this is discouraging for local programmers.

also programming isn't easy. its either u have it or u don't. sometimes u can get stuck for a very long time and if u don't have help you're dead meat.

 

[Elspeth]

is c#, .net gd languages to start with to kick off some int? is c# similar to c+?

i wan somethin that's popularly used nowadays.

 

[Elspeth]

First, are you sure you have a passion of programming? If you have hardly written any code in your free time, I kinda doubt that you have the passion to excel in this field which requires constant learning. However, if you do have the passion, it is never too late to switch. Programming is in fact a one of the rare fields where passion is a better performance indicator than experience.

yea tot so too. well its rather late for me. just tot of pickin it up and see how it goes. if i still sustain the int all e way past my dip then maybe might take up a comp sci priv deg. dip is not comp sci though. but who cares. i think if i can keep the dream alive i'd learn much more in my own free time than listening to poly comp sci programming modules. even though i would get formal structured training in govt poly. do programmers make much these days?

 

[davidktw]

actually not really. hardly touch any programming in my line of simple tech support which i consider is entry level. only occasionally would req scripting here n thre. i'm a few yrs now in support role. been thru smes, si, mnc,...

why i tot of taking up prgramming or coding is cos i feel and i realise i'm at the bottom of the food chain and ladder. and i really need to progress before its really too late in life.

wats a gd lang to start wif out of all those u listed?

yea but i hope wif a dip and if i manage to keep this interest or hobby of self learning coding alive for the next few yrs to be able to secure at least a decent entry level programming job wif no pay cut. since i dun hav a dip now.

i'm actually planning to study nyp's pt time dip but its more into sys admin and has only 1 module of programming and i very well knw its gona be c++ again. since i took this course before.

I'm glad you know where you stand and you have plans to strive. If you feel you have the time to pursue a different track in IT, then go for the computer science course may it be of Information System track, or the hardcore Computer Science course.

I think since you have had a diploma course before, you should be able to handle a degree course since after all, it's JC students that enter universities. It should be something within your reach.

You must understand very clearly, it's not the programming languages that will bring you far. It is the skill set of computer science. Computer science is not about programming languages. It's about able to grasp the various technological disciplines such as database design, algorithm and data structures, networking, operating systems, parallel and concurrent design, project methodologies and documentation and testings. Of course learning programming languages to allow you exercise those topics are necessary too. There are a lot of other breadth you can cover like Artificial Intelligence, Advance Networking concepts, Knowledge Based system, Programming language design and a lot more.

It is these topics that makes a software developer good. It's not just about which programming languages to choose. You can write a poem just with Malay, Mandarin and English. It's the technique that really matters when it comes to how good your poem is. But of course, you will need the necessary command of the language to know which vocabularies, constructs, semantics, grammar, idioms that makes your poem good.

 

[davidktw]

is c#, .net gd languages to start with to kick off some int? is c# similar to c+?

i wan somethin that's popularly used nowadays.

Java, .NET and its classes of languages, PHP, Python, Ruby, Javascript, Coffescript, Go, Closure, Scala, are examples are popular languages.

You can't really select in this manner. Normally your computing course will use certain programming language, and you move on from there to other necessary programming languages in your line of work.

 

[natnai]

Java, .NET and its classes of languages, PHP, Python, Ruby, Javascript, Coffescript, Go, Closure, Scala, are examples are popular languages.

You can't really select in this manner. Normally your computing course will use certain programming language, and you move on from there to other necessary programming languages in your line of work.

I've been toying with the idea of doing an undergrad degree at NTU, but only because I want to learn the mathematical foundations of programming like algorithms, data-related statistics, and probability. I think I can easily learn languages on my own, but fundamentals...hm.

3 years of taking a whole bunch of other rubbish modules though...I'm still leaning toward learning the mathematics on my own. Can't be that hard...

 

[KnightNiwrem]

this forum like quite quiet hor. i guess not many aspire to become programmers/software developers.

thru out my time doin IT at basic level, i notice and observed alot of developers are FTs, sad to say. guess maybe i'm not exposed wide enuf. lots of indians,myanmmar,tiongs, and even our frenly neigbours m'sians. guess some of em can settle for lower pay so coys take them rite.

feel this is discouraging for local programmers.

also programming isn't easy. its either u have it or u don't. sometimes u can get stuck for a very long time and if u don't have help you're dead meat.

It is not that many locals don't aspire to be software developers. Instead, as a computer science student, we are just quite busy with extra work, even though it is summer holidays period for NUS now.

 

[KnightNiwrem]

I've been toying with the idea of doing an undergrad degree at NTU, but only because I want to learn the mathematical foundations of programming like algorithms, data-related statistics, and probability. I think I can easily learn languages on my own, but fundamentals...hm.

3 years of taking a whole bunch of other rubbish modules though...I'm still leaning toward learning the mathematics on my own. Can't be that hard...

If you want to go NTU, I think you are better off doing their accelerated programme. If you can't get in NTU's accelerated programme, come to NUS and bid for accelerated mods.

I think you'd be pretty bored if you went for the regular track.

Alternatively, you can try for a double degree in mathematics and computer science if you want more mathematics.

 

[davidktw]

I've been toying with the idea of doing an undergrad degree at NTU, but only because I want to learn the mathematical foundations of programming like algorithms, data-related statistics, and probability. I think I can easily learn languages on my own, but fundamentals...hm.

3 years of taking a whole bunch of other rubbish modules though...I'm still leaning toward learning the mathematics on my own. Can't be that hard...

Good that you wanted to get a proper degree on CS. There are no rubbish modules, there are only modules one can't find proper application of it.

Lets put things easily into your perspective, if you started off as a software engineer, would you consider law to be truly out of scope ? Clearly I can't see where engineering and law comes together on daily basis of work right ?

However consider the different GPL1/2/3, MIT, Apache, BSD and all other types of OSS licenses or even those commercial ones. Understanding the clauses and terms and conditions in them would allow an engineer to know how to architect an piece of software still not infringing the license and yet able to sell the complete solution without the need to disclose the software source.

Likewise how would one make use of the physics, biology, geography or other sciences knowledge to your advantage. If you have study any medical courses, perhaps it would give you direction into a new business of health care where you know when it crosses into the need for certification and where would be the grey zone where your new startup business can goes on without certification.

It's truly the domain knowledge at play. It is these domain knowledge that a software developer need to have and understand in order to create software that will tackle the real business needs.

Perhaps because I have spent nearly a decade of my career in a software house in the side of a vendor where we attempt to tackle all sorts of different business requirements that I find a software developer will be extremely limited in his or her creativity if the developer only knows about technology and little of what is outside in the universe.

Considering the current where big data is like the frontage of technology. Question 1, where are the domain experts and knows big data ? We have a lot of domain experts in all industries, but few of them knows technology sufficiently to convert that knowledge into engines that can make technology works. Likewise we have a lot of technological experts, but not all of them are practicing domains outside of their daily work.

So big data while not a farce is indeed in a flux. It is an on-gong process to nurture these data scientists whom are engineers, researchers, mathematicians and also possess domain knowledges of the industries they want to tackle.

These data scientists don't just appear out of petri dishes, neither will you find them wandering in the streets. You will certainly find it hard to just give them a course and then make them one. It's not easy to get engineers love research love maths and love something else. The passion which will drive the creativeness to solve a problem has to come from within them, and hence they need to agree on the works they wanted to do in their careers.

Hence coming back to why no modules are rubbish is because all modules that you will be exposed to, are avenues for you to get a taste of what is outside your scope. It gives you an opportunity to see things beyond what you have considered and who knows, you might be interested to pursue that course and here we have an engineer whom can understand besides machinery codes.

 

[Elspeth]

is it hard for someone wif a non comp sci dip to secure an entry level programmer/developer's job? eg. like frm a dip of network/sys admin. EVEN if one demonstrates competent capability for the demands of the job position at hand? meaning the candidate shows that he knows his stuff, his codes, the lang req, all during the interview. would employers first look at yr dip and then shun u if ure applying for a dev role when u didn't graduate studyin dev in the first pl.

 

[davidktw]

is it hard for someone wif a non comp sci dip to secure an entry level programmer/developer's job? eg. like frm a dip of network/sys admin. EVEN if one demonstrates competent capability for the demands of the job position at hand? meaning the candidate shows that he knows his stuff, his codes, the lang req, all during the interview. would employers first look at yr dip and then shun u if ure applying for a dev role when u didn't graduate studyin dev in the first pl.

SME normally will be more lenient. That's where you can have an easier entry and for you to show your calibre in the process. Normally they might test you on your problem solving mental approach and that's where you may have a chance to show you have what it takes to take up a development job.

Interview is all about presenting yourself, it's an opportunity. It's not a time for you to display your cert which is just a matter of which side you are in. Is it harder ? The answer is likely YES, is it IMPOSSIBLE? We believe it is NOT.

In fact, I say there is no point asking. Why not just go try out ? It can be easily tested with no side effects except perhaps your ego at stake. No pain no gain, isn't it ?

 

[KnightNiwrem]

Good that you wanted to get a proper degree on CS. There are no rubbish modules, there are only modules one can't find proper application of it.

Lets put things easily into your perspective, if you started off as a software engineer, would you consider law to be truly out of scope ? Clearly I can't see where engineering and law comes together on daily basis of work right ?

However consider the different GPL1/2/3, MIT, Apache, BSD and all other types of OSS licenses or even those commercial ones. Understanding the clauses and terms and conditions in them would allow an engineer to know how to architect an piece of software still not infringing the license and yet able to sell the complete solution without the need to disclose the software source.

Likewise how would one make use of the physics, biology, geography or other sciences knowledge to your advantage. If you have study any medical courses, perhaps it would give you direction into a new business of health care where you know when it crosses into the need for certification and where would be the grey zone where your new startup business can goes on without certification.

It's truly the domain knowledge at play. It is these domain knowledge that a software developer need to have and understand in order to create software that will tackle the real business needs.

Perhaps because I have spent nearly a decade of my career in a software house in the side of a vendor where we attempt to tackle all sorts of different business requirements that I find a software developer will be extremely limited in his or her creativity if the developer only knows about technology and little of what is outside in the universe.

Considering the current where big data is like the frontage of technology. Question 1, where are the domain experts and knows big data ? We have a lot of domain experts in all industries, but few of them knows technology sufficiently to convert that knowledge into engines that can make technology works. Likewise we have a lot of technological experts, but not all of them are practicing domains outside of their daily work.

So big data while not a farce is indeed in a flux. It is an on-gong process to nurture these data scientists whom are engineers, researchers, mathematicians and also possess domain knowledges of the industries they want to tackle.

These data scientists don't just appear out of petri dishes, neither will you find them wandering in the streets. You will certainly find it hard to just give them a course and then make them one. It's not easy to get engineers love research love maths and love something else. The passion which will drive the creativeness to solve a problem has to come from within them, and hence they need to agree on the works they wanted to do in their careers.

Hence coming back to why no modules are rubbish is because all modules that you will be exposed to, are avenues for you to get a taste of what is outside your scope. It gives you an opportunity to see things beyond what you have considered and who knows, you might be interested to pursue that course and here we have an engineer whom can understand besides machinery codes.

To add on to davidktw, even modules outside CS are not necessarily "rubbish" to a CS student. I might not have to ever directly use the actual content taught, but I do find myself applying clever ideas and techniques found in other fields of study, when designing any particular piece of software.