advice needed.

[Elspeth]

SME normally will be more lenient. That's where you can have an easier entry and for you to show your calibre in the process. Normally they might test you on your problem solving mental approach and that's where you may have a chance to show you have what it takes to take up a development job.

Interview is all about presenting yourself, it's an opportunity. It's not a time for you to display your cert which is just a matter of which side you are in. Is it harder ? The answer is likely YES, is it IMPOSSIBLE? We believe it is NOT.

In fact, I say there is no point asking. Why not just go try out ? It can be easily tested with no side effects except perhaps your ego at stake. No pain no gain, isn't it ?

i 0 exp 0 knowledge now la towkay

 

[davidktw]

i 0 exp 0 knowledge now la towkay

Well then student, go learn something. Go take up a course not because you need the degree or diploma, go take up the course because you want to know what you can learn from it.

Walk up to the institute General Office and ask them who you can talk to to understand more about what courses are offered and which offers the courses that is of interest to you.

You don't just keep standing at ground zero and expect to see beyond the horizon.

 

[davidktw]

To add on to davidktw, even modules outside CS are not necessarily "rubbish" to a CS student. I might not have to ever directly use the actual content taught, but I do find myself applying clever ideas and techniques found in other fields of study, when designing any particular piece of software.

Very well, you know that spirit of pursue of science and dream is exactly well illustrated from Neil deGrasse Tyson.

 

[natnai]

Good that you wanted to get a proper degree on CS. There are no rubbish modules, there are only modules one can't find proper application of it.

Lets put things easily into your perspective, if you started off as a software engineer, would you consider law to be truly out of scope ? Clearly I can't see where engineering and law comes together on daily basis of work right ?

However consider the different GPL1/2/3, MIT, Apache, BSD and all other types of OSS licenses or even those commercial ones. Understanding the clauses and terms and conditions in them would allow an engineer to know how to architect an piece of software still not infringing the license and yet able to sell the complete solution without the need to disclose the software source.

Likewise how would one make use of the physics, biology, geography or other sciences knowledge to your advantage. If you have study any medical courses, perhaps it would give you direction into a new business of health care where you know when it crosses into the need for certification and where would be the grey zone where your new startup business can goes on without certification.

It's truly the domain knowledge at play. It is these domain knowledge that a software developer need to have and understand in order to create software that will tackle the real business needs.

Perhaps because I have spent nearly a decade of my career in a software house in the side of a vendor where we attempt to tackle all sorts of different business requirements that I find a software developer will be extremely limited in his or her creativity if the developer only knows about technology and little of what is outside in the universe.

Considering the current where big data is like the frontage of technology. Question 1, where are the domain experts and knows big data ? We have a lot of domain experts in all industries, but few of them knows technology sufficiently to convert that knowledge into engines that can make technology works. Likewise we have a lot of technological experts, but not all of them are practicing domains outside of their daily work.

So big data while not a farce is indeed in a flux. It is an on-gong process to nurture these data scientists whom are engineers, researchers, mathematicians and also possess domain knowledges of the industries they want to tackle.

These data scientists don't just appear out of petri dishes, neither will you find them wandering in the streets. You will certainly find it hard to just give them a course and then make them one. It's not easy to get engineers love research love maths and love something else. The passion which will drive the creativeness to solve a problem has to come from within them, and hence they need to agree on the works they wanted to do in their careers.

Hence coming back to why no modules are rubbish is because all modules that you will be exposed to, are avenues for you to get a taste of what is outside your scope. It gives you an opportunity to see things beyond what you have considered and who knows, you might be interested to pursue that course and here we have an engineer whom can understand besides machinery codes.

I see where you're coming from with this, David. I think cross-discipline expertise IS very important indeed. Where you and I may not agree though, is the HOW one should acquire such cross-discipline expertise. I think we need to always ask ourselves, is university really the best place to learn about another disciplines?

Take me for example. I came into web development almost purely by accident, when I was knocking about jobless after quitting law and decided to join a start up. I think learning it in a commercial vs. academic setting made a lot of difference to the speed of progress (of course, there are other factors to consider like passion, intelligence, etc).

Of course, even as someone with a legal background, there were many techniques I used in law that transferred. Mostly, problem solving and semantic reasoning. Did I pick up these skills while a law student or in practice? Probably in practice. Did I need to spend 3 years in university brushing the surface of numerous disciplines? Don't think so. As is often said, a little knowledge is dangerous.

That's why for me, university should be about learning fundamentals - broad building blocks that one can use across the whole spectrum (ideally). This is why I mentioned things like algorithms and mathematics - because I realise these are the foundations of computer science be it computer engineering, programming, or whatever. Learning deeply, and learning about other disciplines (like how I came to be interested in web development), I think is really up to the individual's intellectual curiosity. If a person is not intellectually curious, you can force him into any number of modules at university, but the fool will still come out a fool.

Now some people will probably say, if you already know how to take a web app from scratch to production, you're fine and you don't need a degree since I think most things are better learned on the job. But I have to qualify that by saying I think some things - particularly more theoretical ones - are best learned academically, to force you into having a strong foundation. Otherwise, one tends to simply adopt a method that 'works' - but not necessarily the best method.

I suppose you could say my desire to attend an undergrad CS course is not so much about getting a certificate. It's really similar to the concept of min/maxing in MMOs. It may make only a 10 or 15% difference to my overall skill as a developer, but I don't care - because you NEED that 10% to 15% if you want to be at the top of the pile. If you want to be run of the mill, you don't need much - but who cares about run of the mill right?

So coming back to the point at hand, and in summary, I think we can say...I agree there are no 'useless' modules in an undergrad course per se, but I do definitely think the time spent there can be more efficiently and effectively allocated to learning methods more effective for a given individual - particularly people who learn better while doing rather than theorising. I suppose it's a matter of different strokes, different folks. Some learn better observing and reading, some learn better by doing.

 

[natnai]

If you want to go NTU, I think you are better off doing their accelerated programme. If you can't get in NTU's accelerated programme, come to NUS and bid for accelerated mods.

I think you'd be pretty bored if you went for the regular track.

Alternatively, you can try for a double degree in mathematics and computer science if you want more mathematics.

I was thinking of a part-time undergrad degree because I still have to run my business :/

Definitely no double degree; but I didn't know about these accelerated modules. I don't think NUS has a part-time BEngin(Computer Science), so NUS is unfortunately out of the question for me. I wonder if part-timers can take accelerated modules too. That would be good.

Do you know if there's any difference? I hear the only difference is part-timers may take longer to complete all the modules required.

 

[KnightNiwrem]

I was thinking of a part-time undergrad degree because I still have to run my business :/

Definitely no double degree; but I didn't know about these accelerated modules. I don't think NUS has a part-time BEngin(Computer Science), so NUS is unfortunately out of the question for me. I wonder if part-timers can take accelerated modules too. That would be good.

Do you know if there's any difference? I hear the only difference is part-timers may take longer to complete all the modules required.

You're right. It does seem like NUS doesn't offer Computer Science as a part-time programme. That's too bad, I guess...

 

[davidktw]

I see where you're coming from with this, David. I think cross-discipline expertise IS very important indeed. Where you and I may not agree though, is the HOW one should acquire such cross-discipline expertise. I think we need to always ask ourselves, is university really the best place to learn about another disciplines?

Take me for example. I came into web development almost purely by accident, when I was knocking about jobless after quitting law and decided to join a start up. I think learning it in a commercial vs. academic setting made a lot of difference to the speed of progress (of course, there are other factors to consider like passion, intelligence, etc).

Of course, even as someone with a legal background, there were many techniques I used in law that transferred. Mostly, problem solving and semantic reasoning. Did I pick up these skills while a law student or in practice? Probably in practice. Did I need to spend 3 years in university brushing the surface of numerous disciplines? Don't think so. As is often said, a little knowledge is dangerous.

That's why for me, university should be about learning fundamentals - broad building blocks that one can use across the whole spectrum (ideally). This is why I mentioned things like algorithms and mathematics - because I realise these are the foundations of computer science be it computer engineering, programming, or whatever. Learning deeply, and learning about other disciplines (like how I came to be interested in web development), I think is really up to the individual's intellectual curiosity. If a person is not intellectually curious, you can force him into any number of modules at university, but the fool will still come out a fool.

Now some people will probably say, if you already know how to take a web app from scratch to production, you're fine and you don't need a degree since I think most things are better learned on the job. But I have to qualify that by saying I think some things - particularly more theoretical ones - are best learned academically, to force you into having a strong foundation. Otherwise, one tends to simply adopt a method that 'works' - but not necessarily the best method.

I suppose you could say my desire to attend an undergrad CS course is not so much about getting a certificate. It's really similar to the concept of min/maxing in MMOs. It may make only a 10 or 15% difference to my overall skill as a developer, but I don't care - because you NEED that 10% to 15% if you want to be at the top of the pile. If you want to be run of the mill, you don't need much - but who cares about run of the mill right?

So coming back to the point at hand, and in summary, I think we can say...I agree there are no 'useless' modules in an undergrad course per se, but I do definitely think the time spent there can be more efficiently and effectively allocated to learning methods more effective for a given individual - particularly people who learn better while doing rather than theorising. I suppose it's a matter of different strokes, different folks. Some learn better observing and reading, some learn better by doing.

So it seems we do agree on that the university offers a vast space for someone who is keen to go figure out what path is best for him and of priority to him.

Somehow I didn't at any point stress the division of knowledge acquisition between in a learning institute and the industrial settings. I think I have much agree and have not deviated that one can learn from multitude approaches and scenarios. For years in the industrial environment, I clearly see the limitation of the kind of knowledge one can get while working and the lack in industrial practices that a student inside an incubation environment will be exposed to.

Beyond just lectures and tutorials, there are a lot more to a university environment that a student can go into. Such as just plainly walk up to a lecturer whom is major in certain research and ask for his advise, I'm sure if you do it the right way, you shouldn't be rejected. Another is participate in research that you know is offered to students. These are not theories, these are practicals that require students get down to their hands on the ground.

For the slight notion that you have kinda brought up with regards to a university has higher priority on theories, I say it's up to an individual. It's an intelligent being we are nurturing here, it's not a block of wood, so why should what is told to do becomes absolute commands or direction ? I see students straying away from their studies for all sorts of reasons, so why can't the creativity in pursuing your own mode of study be not one of the approach of a student can get outside the box ?

I'm agreeable to everyone can have different mode in how they want to pursue life, and I say by all means go do it if you have your mind set on something. However if you are unsure of what to do next, and if you ask me, there will be my opinion on the table for you to figure out if it suits your needs.

If you feel diploma make sense in your learning, I say jolly well take your pick and accept all the risks involved, there are also another set of risks that university students need to take, not like every institutes come out with any success guarantee.

 

[natnai]

So it seems we do agree on that the university offers a vast space for someone who is keen to go figure out what path is best for him and of priority to him.

Somehow I didn't at any point stress the division of knowledge acquisition between in a learning institute and the industrial settings. I think I have much agree and have not deviated that one can learn from multitude approaches and scenarios. For years in the industrial environment, I clearly see the limitation of the kind of knowledge one can get while working and the lack in industrial practices that a student inside an incubation environment will be exposed to.

Beyond just lectures and tutorials, there are a lot more to a university environment that a student can go into. Such as just plainly walk up to a lecturer whom is major in certain research and ask for his advise, I'm sure if you do it the right way, you shouldn't be rejected. Another is participate in research that you know is offered to students. These are not theories, these are practicals that require students get down to their hands on the ground.

For the slight notion that you have kinda brought up with regards to a university has higher priority on theories, I say it's up to an individual. It's an intelligent being we are nurturing here, it's not a block of wood, so why should what is told to do becomes absolute commands or direction ? I see students straying away from their studies for all sorts of reasons, so why can't the creativity in pursuing your own mode of study be not one of the approach of a student can get outside the box ?

I'm agreeable to everyone can have different mode in how they want to pursue life, and I say by all means go do it if you have your mind set on something. However if you are unsure of what to do next, and if you ask me, there will be my opinion on the table for you to figure out if it suits your needs.

If you feel diploma make sense in your learning, I say jolly well take your pick and accept all the risks involved, there are also another set of risks that university students need to take, not like every institutes come out with any success guarantee.

Fair enough David. I definitely see the value in university; I just don't know if the opportunity cost will be justified at this point. Ultimately the goal like everyone else (I hope) is to become as good as I can, and maybe I can't get to that point without some form of formal training, like I said.

Anyway deviating a bit off-topic, I've been working on a fork of PJAX, converting that library into a promise-aware one, using generators and yield to control behaviour instead of pub/sub/callbacks. I'll post it up when I'm done; I actually forked it just to learn promises/generators properly.

 

[Elspeth]

wats e avg startin pay like for a fresh govt uni grad in comp sci

 

[KnightNiwrem]

wats e avg startin pay like for a fresh govt uni grad in comp sci

See the argument here: http://nuswhispers.com/search/4k

 

[ykgoh]

Is It Really Possible to Switch Jobs to a New Industry Without Suffering a Pay Cut in Singapore?

Tech and web industries have particularly strong track records in hiring from outside the industry. Just because you’re not a programmer doesn’t necessarily mean you don’t stand a chance, as many larger tech companies need marketers, HR professionals, accountants and legal counsel. In addition, many types of online work such as social media management are new enough such that even those without specific experience may be considered.

 

[Elspeth]

See the argument here: http://nuswhispers.com/search/4k

my god. just skimmin thru it. we've really stiff comp against the fts. my pay is only a few 100 below some of the mentioned grad pay. and i'm only ite. guess i shld be contented. some dip pay above 2.5. how can this be. when grad is hovering 2.5-3.

 

[Elspeth]

david u shld work in US

how the heck did u embed youtube videos ah david?

edit: nvm. got it lol.

 

[Elspeth]

its not workin

 

[davidktw]

my god. just skimmin thru it. we've really stiff comp against the fts. my pay is only a few 100 below some of the mentioned grad pay. and i'm only ite. guess i shld be contented. some dip pay above 2.5. how can this be. when grad is hovering 2.5-3.

Why should you be contented ? I'm sure if you want more you can get more. The only thing I keep reminding people you look at the money, you get nothing. You look at things that get you money, you get the money.

In this forum, it is so often I keep seeing "Hey, I'm underpaid because I have this certificate, I work this long" Then they start bashing the competitors and they start bashing the government opening up the door.

As a Singaporean, I can't help to feel sorry for the state of mind of the local workers. So much losers mentalities and so lack of the spirit to fight. All they want is keep doing the same thing again and again, keep out all the competitors and earn their worth.

i think these people are plain silly living in inside a well. In today's context where Internet have greatly globalise the world, your clients are not that stupid to assume they can only get good and affordable labours in Singapore. They can always outsource their work to someone outside of Singapore if they feel it make sense to them.

So how does keeping out the FT helps ? No it doesn't at all. It only deplete away the creativeness within Singapore and slowly we will be obsolete without the help of others.

Hence with so many FT just next to you or next to your country, what is your strategy ? That should be the question you should be asking yourself and you ought to do something about it if you want to continue your high flying lifestyle in Singapore.

Once you get beyond certain number of working experience, what comes is not so much of where you graduate from. It's what you know about the current affairs and how you keep rolling the boat to where the horizon is further.

 

[Elspeth]

eh david wat are some gd sites for programing newbies

 

[onepiece]

Get a grasp of Java or IOS programming and start creating apps. Who knows you might start another craze (like flappy bird).

 

[davidktw]

eh david wat are some gd sites for programing newbies

Books is where u learn programming. Mobile apps like Zite, Flipboard is where u can get assorted news of current affairs.

I jump from sites to sites as I see keywords in articles that mention other subjects.

 

[Bonadaly]

Books is where u learn programming. Mobile apps like Zite, Flipboard is where u can get assorted news of current affairs.

I jump from sites to sites as I see keywords in articles that mention other subjects.

Do books on Android programming in 2013 gets outdated now?

 

[KnightNiwrem]

Do books on Android programming in 2013 gets outdated now?

No. When using android studio, they will ask for your lowest version supported. The default lowest is currently v15 (4.0.3), but you can change it to a lower one if you don't know all the features of a newer version.

The reason for this is because not everyone updates their android version, and so they provide a range of lowest version supported (with user statistics) so that you know how much userbase of android your app can target.

It is still better to keep up to date, however.