Air conditioning - Any recommendations please??

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dachee

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https://imageshack.com/i/plPe20Zoj

Hi,

Sorry for the late reply.

Have a look at this: https://imageshack.com/i/pmG0SSVDp

I am assuming that there is a beam over the corridor from the kitchen to the living room. This FCU may have to be higher than the one in the living room. The normal height of the FCU is 8ft from the floor.

Do let me know if there is no beam there, so that I can look for alternative location.

You have a choice of one system 3 (bedrooms) and one system 2 (living and dining) or just one system 3 for the bedrooms. Living and dining no air conditioner.

If you are using 2 systems, then it is good to check that your house is allowed to install 2 power points for the 2 condensers.

Also let me have your comments.

The above are my opinion and hope that they are helpful.
 
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Quantom

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Is it advisable to use the daikin pro shop for purchasing and installation? Have to decide on aircon soon since my renovations are staring.

Any difference between the different pro shops? Are they manage by daikin directly or are they sub cons?

I'm currently going for an installation by a Pro Shop. Fortuna, to be accurate. It's interesting to see how few reviews there are for these shops here on the forums. However, they should be a little more dependable given that they are, after all, the authorised Daikin installers.

I'll post my findings after they install the piping this coming weekend.
 

Mannequin Yeo

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Hi,

Sorry for the late reply.

Have a look at this: https://imageshack.com/i/pmG0SSVDp

I am assuming that there is a beam over the corridor from the kitchen to the living room. This FCU may have to be higher than the one in the living room. The normal height of the FCU is 8ft from the floor.

Do let me know if there is no beam there, so that I can look for alternative location.

You have a choice of one system 3 (bedrooms) and one system 2 (living and dining) or just one system 3 for the bedrooms. Living and dining no air conditioner.

If you are using 2 systems, then it is good to check that your house is allowed to install 2 power points for the 2 condensers.

Also let me have your comments.

The above are my opinion and hope that they are helpful.

yes there is a beam along the the foyer in the living room.

My plan

Living Room aircon above the entrance door beam - pipe trunking from TOP to kitchen down straight to yard then to ledge

MBR aircon above toilet door - pipe trunking all inside MBR false ceiling out to ledge

Bedroom 2 above door - pipe trunking TOP to the walkway beam to common toilet false ceiling then to MBR false ceiling to yard then to ledge

Bedroom 3 above door - pipe trunking TOP to the walkway beam to kitchen TOP then down to bottom straight to yard then to ledge

Thank you
 

NeonX

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Cheers, do let me know your experience with them, can’t seem to find any shop recommendations. Might just go with them since u have experience

I'm currently going for an installation by a Pro Shop. Fortuna, to be accurate. It's interesting to see how few reviews there are for these shops here on the forums. However, they should be a little more dependable given that they are, after all, the authorised Daikin installers.

I'll post my findings after they install the piping this coming weekend.
 

ikingsleyu

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Hi,

If you are installing a new air conditioner, and had opted for new piping, than it is important that you observe the installers to ensure that they do not joint the pipes.

Discuss this requirement with the seller and have it written in your order that no jointing is acceptable except at the FCU and Condenser and to use flared joints. Some worker braze the pipe at the FCU to save them the work to properly route the pipes.

Brazing of the pipes is not acceptable and you should be consulted if worker which to do brazing. Never Never allow them to braze the pipes.

As you are paying for the new pipe, there is no reason why the new pipe need to be jointed. New pipe comes at a length of 15m and this is sufficient for most houses in Singapore.

Jointing of new pipes are done when workers salvage left over new pipes from other installation to save cost. Some pipes may have a few joints from shorter pipes. When pipes are inserted into the insulation, it becomes difficult for the customers to check for brazed joints. Workers will normally insert the pipes into the insulation when you are not around or during lunch time when no one is watching them.

Have it in your agreement that you wish to inspect the new pipe before they are inserted into the insulation.

In Singapore, all air conditioner joint that are brazed are inappropriately done, ie without the use of nitrogen gas and as a result may cause serious failure to the system with expensive repair or even complete change of the whole system.

Attached is a link showing what happened when copper pipe is brazed with and without nitrogen.

https://youtu.be/Bpqxbc9XQ5Y

Air conditioner system consist of parts that have very fine holes in the control devices and scaling from brazed pipe without using nitrogen can easily choke the system.

So NEVER NEVER allow your new pipes to be brazed joint by the worker at any cost. Stop them, or reject the pipe and show them your agreement that you have with the seller.

The above are my opinion and hope that they are helpful.


So NEVER NEVER allow your new pipes to be brazed joint by the worker at any cost. Stop them, or reject the pipe and show them your agreement that you have with the seller.

- so it means when my bedroom aircon piping is more than 15m..then my room cannot have aircon inside.

In Singapore, all air conditioner joint that are brazed are inappropriately done

- any prove to show??
 

dachee

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So NEVER NEVER allow your new pipes to be brazed joint by the worker at any cost. Stop them, or reject the pipe and show them your agreement that you have with the seller.

- so it means when my bedroom aircon piping is more than 15m..then my room cannot have aircon inside.

In Singapore, all air conditioner joint that are brazed are inappropriately done

- any prove to show??

Hi,

There are alternative methods of jointing pipes other than brazing and one common method is flared joint. If you need more than 15m of pipes, you still can joint them but not by brazing.

However, if you accept brazed joints, it is not of my concern if your system failure in future. It is your choice.

Most systems have pipe length limitation. Some 20m others 30m.

If you think that there are installer/s who braze the air conditioner copper pipes appropriately, do let us know who and how it was done that you think is appropriate.

Maybe STL Air Conditioning can show us how they do their brazing on a video.

The above are my opinion and hope that they are helpful.
 
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Quantom

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Just installed piping over the weekend..
Is this ok?

https://imageshack.us/i/poKnIIfKj

Thanks!

That's just the point right before the fan coil unit, so it's a little hard to tell if the whole system has been installed appropriately.

I think you can only determine if it's alright by observing the entire installation process, and noting if they're doing anything that raises alarm bells such as:

- Brazing copper pipes together
- Sharing insulation of copper pipes from the condenser
- Tearing the insulation

Out of curiosity, which A/C company did your installation?
 
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dachee

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Just installed piping over the weekend..
Is this ok?

https://imageshack.us/i/poKnIIfKj

Thanks!

Hi,

The link shows an insulated pipe photo at the FCU. The FCU consist of the evaporator coil with 2 ends, one incoming and another outgoing. The incoming pipe is smaller, carrying liquid refrigerant while the outgoing pipe is larger, carrying refrigerant gas back to the condenser.

Both these pipes are placed together in one insulation inside the FCU. It is normal for installer to group both the smaller and larger pipe from the condenser together in one insulation as it get nearer to the FCU to joint to the respective pipes in the FCU that are in one insulation.

It is good practice to observe the installer during installation to ensure that the pipes before this grouping into one insulation are actually individual insulated pipes. This grouping should be as short as possible. There is no standard to date as to the length of this grouping, it should be done just to allow the pipes to fit nicely within the FCU. Two individual pipes may likely be too large for the available space within the FCU.

The above are my opinion and hope that they are helpful.
 
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zzzzzz87

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Hi,

The link show an insulated pipe photo at the FCU. The FCU consist of the evaporation coil with 2 ends, one incoming and another outgoing. The incoming pipe is smaller, carrying liquid refrigerant while the outgoing pipe is larger, carrying refrigerant gas back to the condenser.

Both these pipe are place together in one insulation inside the FCU. It is normal for installer to group both the smaller and larger pipe from the condenser together in one insulation as it get nearer to the FCU to joint to the respective pipes in the FCU that are in one insulation.

It is good practice to observe the installer during installation to ensure that the pipes before this grouping into one insulation are actually individual insulated pipes. This grouping should be as short as possible. There is no standard to date as to the length of this grouping.

The above are my opinion and hope that they are helpful.
i didn't observe during installation :(

that means i need to ask them open for me to see if it's individually insulated pipes or what?

or can't do anything liao?

but apparently need the different insulation sizes even though my package is 1/2" de? they brought 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2" with them. saying for different sections. is it correct?
 
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dachee

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i didn't observe during installation :(

that means i need to ask them open for me to see if it's individually insulated pipes or what?

or can't do anything liao?

but apparently need the different insulation sizes even though my package is 1/2" de? they brought 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2" with them. saying for different sections. is it correct?

Hi,

You can see whether the pipes are individually insulated at the point the pipes are jointed to the condenser.

But how long is the "grouped" pipes with single insulation at the FCU is some thing that you cannot confirm without opening the cornices. The choice is your but there may be cost incurred.

However, you can also look around those places that the pipes are run and see if you can access to view it (for example insulated pipes above toilet false ceiling are normally exposed, meaning you can see it if you look above the toilet false ceiling) or pipes that are in conduit which you can open the conduit cover to check the pipes. These conduits cover are held in place by snapped on plastic grooves at the sides.

It is not normal to have different insulation thickness along different sections of the pipes. So if you pay for the 1/2" insulation, then it should be 1/2" throughout the full length of each pipes (small and pipe pipes) except when it get nearer to the FCU, when the pipes are grouped together within one insulation (still 1/2" type) to be jointed to the FCU piping.

The above are my opinion and hope that they are helpful.
 

zzzzzz87

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Hi,

You can see whether the pipes are individually insulated at the point the pipes are jointed to the condenser.

But how long is the "grouped" pipes with single insulation at the FCU is some thing that you cannot confirm without opening the cornices. The choice is your but there may be cost incurred.

However, you can also look around those places that the pipes are run and see if you can access to view it (for example insulated pipes above toilet false ceiling are normally exposed, meaning you can see it if you look above the toilet false ceiling) or pipes that are in conduit which you can open the conduit cover to check the pipes. These conduits cover are held in place by snapped on plastic grooves at the sides.

It is not normal to have different insulation thickness along different sections of the pipes. So if you pay for the 1/2" insulation, then it should be 1/2" throughout the full length of each pipes (small and pipe pipes) except when it get nearer to the FCU, when the pipes are grouped together within one insulation (still 1/2" type) to be jointed to the FCU piping.

The above are my opinion and hope that they are helpful.
do they use the smaller insulation for other purposes then? cuz when i saw 1/4" and 3/8" and 1/2", i asked the worker and that's what he said... hmmm.

mine is just a BTO, system 1 in MBR so the connection is pretty direct, from service yard to master bathroom to master bedroom.

i probably have to go open the toilet false ceiling to check in that case...
 

Quantom

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do they use the smaller insulation for other purposes then? cuz when i saw 1/4" and 3/8" and 1/2", i asked the worker and that's what he said... hmmm.

mine is just a BTO, system 1 in MBR so the connection is pretty direct, from service yard to master bathroom to master bedroom.

i probably have to go open the toilet false ceiling to check in that case...

They won't use 1/2" insulation for the drainage pipes, as far as I know. I believe those are 1/4" ones instead. Not sure where they'll use the 3/8" ones.
 

dachee

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They won't use 1/2" insulation for the drainage pipes, as far as I know. I believe those are 1/4" ones instead. Not sure where they'll use the 3/8" ones.

Yes,

Drainage pipes are not as cold as the copper pipes, so it is normal to have 1/4" insulation. But it can be cold enough to cause water condensation outside the pipe as our humidity is high (about 60+% to 95+% and sometime even 100%) and our dew point also high (about 22 to 27 degree) in Singapore.

So if your water in the drain pipe falls below 27 degree in some days, it is sufficient to cause water condensation outside the pipe, if it is not insulated sufficiently.

Some drainage pipes are run under the floor and if not insulated sufficiently, water condensation may cause water dripping from the ceiling of the unit below. Rectification can be costly if this happened. So there is no harm increasing the insulation at critical place like this one to save expensive repair in future.

3/8" insulation are provided as a standard package by contractors, if I am not wrong.

The above are my opinion and hope that they are helpful.
 
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Quantom

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Yes,

Drainage pipes are not as cool as the copper pipes, so it is normal to have 1/4" insulation. But it can be cold enough to cause water condensation outside the pipe as our humidity is high (about 60+% to 95+% and sometime even 100%) and our dew point also high (about 22 to 27 degree) in Singapore.

So if your water in the drain pipe falls below 27 degree in some days, it is sufficient to cause water condensation outside the pipe, if it is not insulated sufficiently.

Some drainage pipes are run under the floor and if not insulated sufficient, water condensation may cause water dripping from the ceiling of the unit below. Rectification can be costly if this happened. So there is no harm increasing the insulation at critical place like this one to save expensive repair in future.

3/8" insulation are provided as a standard package that contractors, if I am not wrong.

The above are my opinion and hope that they are helpful.

Fortuna quoted me with 1/4" insulation for my drainage pipes. Hmm. Worth a clarification with the boss when he/she comes by. :)
 

zzzzzz87

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oh.... i clarified with them already. paiseh to all.

Armaflex class 1 H (1/4 “) - 1/4" is the hole of insulation, not thickness of insulation

the H is 1/2" thickness of insulation
 

dachee

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Fortuna quoted me with 1/4" insulation for my drainage pipes. Hmm. Worth a clarification with the boss when he/she comes by. :)

Hi,

What I mend about the 3/8" insulation is that it is in the standard package of the copper pipes. Not the drainage pipe.

Hope that this clarify any misunderstanding.

BTW, 1/4" insulation for drainage pipes is normal practice. Unless you decide to improve it as a safety factor.
 
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