Banking Sector - Career Path

[ctzehock]

U gotta be kidding man. Accounting is just a framework with rules, where got maths/stats involved at all? Its just basic plus minus subtract divide.

Please don't ever think that accounting will guarantee you a prestigious job in a bank.

I'm sorry if i asked a dumb question.. But i never though of having a prestigious job in a bank

 

[Yaco99]

I finish that few years back, and i dun think that my knowledge in stock selection got anything to do with getting a job.. Cos i believe you can babble all you know, but unless you got some sort of proof, a degree, or smth, they are not going to hire you

And 2ndly, i'm trying to select a degree for the right job. I believe that Finance and accountancy is drawn by a very thin line.. And i'm not so sure what kind of career in difference would i have with the different degree

ctzehock, one problem i am seeing with trying to help you with your questions is that all the jobs you are interested in are not ones that you start at but rather those that you need to move in into after several years of experience first. it might be a better idea to research on one where you can start at. of course, do keep in mind your end goal and choose a more compatible area to start in. like moving into fund management from doing sales would be harder then say, from being an sector analyst into fund management.

 

[ctzehock]

ctzehock, one problem i am seeing with trying to help you with your questions is that all the jobs you are interested in are not ones that you start at but rather those that you need to move in into after several years of experience first. it might be a better idea to research on one where you can start at. of course, do keep in mind your end goal and choose a more compatible area to start in. like moving into fund management from doing sales would be harder then say, from being an sector analyst into fund management.

Thanks for pointing out to me, in fact if you haven't say it, i would notice it.. Thanks again

 

[direbmem]

so let me get this right...you want to go from doing what is in all probability a relatively mundane job to supervising a bunch of people doing mundane jobs? okay, glad we got that cleared up

while bank operations are without doubt crucial to the running of any front office set-up, there is also a reason why voluntary staff attrition is very high ie people who are not fired but choose to leave. i am sure it is not just the money here.

this is not the same as certain technology roles in the bank fyi. while a good portion of IT troubleshooting has been outsourced, there is still a need for software development. much of the programs that are used in IBs/brokerages are proprietary and i'm sure that this field could actually be quite lucrative.

anyway, with regards to the money...a peak income of 120k per annum will only be enough when you get to 80 or 90k per annum. i'm not sure what you are doing now but you are probably in school or in your first job and as such, that money seems like a lot. at a certain stage i am sure you will want more than 120k because no one really ever gets satisfied with his pay.

120k per annum is indeed an attrctive salary for many working adults lke me. But I agree the lure or rather the turn off of back office ops is the 120k mundane work. I would rather get 80k to 90k (which is still quite a tidy sum to me) doing interesting work I like. however, if it's between a choice of 50k in a job i like (or dont like) and 120k bank ops, i would choose bank ops as the money in this case can more than compensate me for doing the mundane work in a swanky office.

 

[hesperus]

any idea how to get the rough salaries of those people working in the Banking Industry?

 

[sailSIN87]

120k per annum is indeed an attrctive salary for many working adults lke me. But I agree the lure or rather the turn off of back office ops is the 120k mundane work. I would rather get 80k to 90k (which is still quite a tidy sum to me) doing interesting work I like. however, if it's between a choice of 50k in a job i like (or dont like) and 120k bank ops, i would choose bank ops as the money in this case can more than compensate me for doing the mundane work in a swanky office.

the question is whether you want a job or a career. bank ops, for 90% of the people out there, is a job. career, as the name implies, is something that takes years to build up.

maybe one might get more money in a back office position initially, but there are other types of roles out there which may offer you better prospects in the future. it doesn't even have to be in finance. it is all about where you want to be in the future. and as i mentioned in the past, there is a reason why attrition is so high. as others have said, the pay is definitely in the 'not bad' range. so why leave? how likely is it that you in particular will find the nature of this job much more bearable than everyone else?

case in point - i had a friend who was doing IT support at one of the foreign banks. his pay was pretty good for a fresh grad i think, close to 50k per annum. but he didn't like it there, and he soon started to look around. eventually he found a junior position within a hedge fund which would allow him to do some proper investment analysis. it also required him to take a pay cut of about 35%. he was hesitant, but i convinced him that he should go.

this was 2 years ago. he has probably not caught up to where he would be had he not left his first position but i'm sure he is pretty close. and what he will get in the future will far surpass what he would have earned had he just stayed.

btw i am in finance but neither have i finished the intelligent investor nor have i read building a profession...haven't even heard of the latter!

 

[sailSIN87]

any idea how to get the rough salaries of those people working in the Banking Industry?

you can google this - usually it will lead you to the website of a headhunter like Michael Page or so on.

 

[ctzehock]

the question is whether you want a job or a career. bank ops, for 90% of the people out there, is a job. career, as the name implies, is something that takes years to build up.

maybe one might get more money in a back office position initially, but there are other types of roles out there which may offer you better prospects in the future. it doesn't even have to be in finance. it is all about where you want to be in the future. and as i mentioned in the past, there is a reason why attrition is so high. as others have said, the pay is definitely in the 'not bad' range. so why leave? how likely is it that you in particular will find the nature of this job much more bearable than everyone else?

case in point - i had a friend who was doing IT support at one of the foreign banks. his pay was pretty good for a fresh grad i think, close to 50k per annum. but he didn't like it there, and he soon started to look around. eventually he found a junior position within a hedge fund which would allow him to do some proper investment analysis. it also required him to take a pay cut of about 35%. he was hesitant, but i convinced him that he should go.

this was 2 years ago. he has probably not caught up to where he would be had he not left his first position but i'm sure he is pretty close. and what he will get in the future will far surpass what he would have earned had he just stayed.

btw i am in finance but neither have i finished the intelligent investor nor have i read building a profession...haven't even heard of the latter!

Thanks for the reply.. A career or a job??
It kind of remind me again, why i chose accountancy.. After some thinking, it seems that i just wanted was a stable job.. I dun expect much progression but the stable job attracts me
And on the other hand, i like to read annual report and determine whether a stock ish worth buying or not.. If possible, i think i want a career in smth like that

I think i should ponder your question seriously

Lastly, i agreed that reading a particular book doesn't makes you more suitable for a job

 

[Motexh]

For back office jobs, that other minus point is that you get little to no respect from the other people in the bank. In a culture of "greed is good", departments who bring in no revenue are the lowest in the hierachy.

For most banking jobs, a quantitative background is not needed unless you are trying for a job in Renaissance Tech. Most front office positions in investment banking make use of your selling skills. In IBD, most of the time you are basically trying to sell a company, either to the public through an IPO or to another company through a M&A deal. The numbers used in the pitch are what the MD in charge wants to see and is sometimes very divorced from reality. I have seen a pitchbook which project a company having 100+% growth per annum over the next ten years. With numbers like these, it is up to your selling skills to make a deal happen.

Trading requires a bit more quantitative skills. And even then, it is more of dealing with pressure and making simple calculations on the fly when you are on the edge of your seat. Nothing involving algebra or anything like that.

 

[Agravaine]

Thanks for the reply.. A career or a job??
It kind of remind me again, why i chose accountancy.. After some thinking, it seems that i just wanted was a stable job.. I dun expect much progression but the stable job attracts me
And on the other hand, i like to read annual report and determine whether a stock ish worth buying or not.. If possible, i think i want a career in smth like that

I think i should ponder your question seriously

Lastly, i agreed that reading a particular book doesn't makes you more suitable for a job

Stable job? Sounds like government for you.

 

[aprilkwan]

hello

same as ctzehock, im also in accountancy w/o any prior knowledge to the B&F field. so pardon me i ask silly questions?

heard from many that B&F sector is all about networking. what does it truely means? if let's say u're an employee, to earn 80k - 120k range starting with nothing at all. how are u all going to build that network and portfolio? so it's like doing sales? the company have a portfolio of clients so whether a not u made them invest or trade would determine if u have the gift of gab?

seemed like many of u all are highly experienced in this.. what are ur qaualifications? will a CFA brings me to able to work in this field other than getting a degree?

are there any other jobs prospects if i'm not that into networking?
sry for being shallow here

 

[amerell]

If your not into networking, then you have to build experience based on your current job and keep applying for all those B&F jobs.

Just to let you know, a CFA will not bring you a job in finance, it only upgrades your pay level if your doing asset management or equities research based jobs. If your doing things like ops, IB, trading then isn't CFA pointless?

If you just want a job in the banking sector, go and do an MBA once you accumulate years of experience.

 

[Motexh]

hello

same as ctzehock, im also in accountancy w/o any prior knowledge to the B&F field. so pardon me i ask silly questions?

heard from many that B&F sector is all about networking. what does it truely means? if let's say u're an employee, to earn 80k - 120k range starting with nothing at all. how are u all going to build that network and portfolio? so it's like doing sales? the company have a portfolio of clients so whether a not u made them invest or trade would determine if u have the gift of gab?

seemed like many of u all are highly experienced in this.. what are ur qaualifications? will a CFA brings me to able to work in this field other than getting a degree?

are there any other jobs prospects if i'm not that into networking?
sry for being shallow here

For IB, your sales skills will only come in when you hit VP when you have to bring in clients. At the junior levels, you are just an Excel monkey.

CFA is mainly only good for asset management / equity research. CFA is useless for IB and trading. I have said this before in other threads, I would just take the level one to show the banks you are interested in finance and stop there. Spending thousands of hours studying for a certification is a huge waste when you can use the hours to network.

Networking can start from a simple cold email to bankers. Use databases like Linkedin to get email addresses and start from there. After that, if you get a good response, try to get a phone conversation in and progress from there. You have to be thick-skinned and be prepared for many non-responses. But all it takes is just one positive response and you could be in.

 

[Kyoji83]

Wei, can don't ask stupid question again since I already answer you liao?


If you are at least a Poly Dip graduate, I know that you can use your brain to think, right?


So, tell me the answer for your question & why is it so?

If i have a Banking Degree & a Electronics Engg poly diploma, is my diploma useless since i have a banking degree & intend to work in the bank?

 

[Agravaine]

For IB, your sales skills will only come in when you hit VP when you have to bring in clients. At the junior levels, you are just an Excel monkey.

CFA is mainly only good for asset management / equity research. CFA is useless for IB and trading. I have said this before in other threads, I would just take the level one to show the banks you are interested in finance and stop there. Spending thousands of hours studying for a certification is a huge waste when you can use the hours to network.

Networking can start from a simple cold email to bankers. Use databases like Linkedin to get email addresses and start from there. After that, if you get a good response, try to get a phone conversation in and progress from there. You have to be thick-skinned and be prepared for many non-responses. But all it takes is just one positive response and you could be in.

Is CFA useful for product structuring?

 

[aprilkwan]

thanks amerell & motexh for the additional info..

For IB, your sales skills will only come in when you hit VP when you have to bring in clients. At the junior levels, you are just an Excel monkey.

CFA is mainly only good for asset management / equity research. CFA is useless for IB and trading. I have said this before in other threads, I would just take the level one to show the banks you are interested in finance and stop there. Spending thousands of hours studying for a certification is a huge waste when you can use the hours to network.

Networking can start from a simple cold email to bankers. Use databases like Linkedin to get email addresses and start from there. After that, if you get a good response, try to get a phone conversation in and progress from there. You have to be thick-skinned and be prepared for many non-responses. But all it takes is just one positive response and you could be in.

VP means Vice-president? :/

read pages before and saw IB are all about sales.. which also means they're working in the front line..
i explored the Linkedin and saw most are of high positions. let's say im an associate from Fortis Investments.. if i were to set up my databases at least im qualified to make other companies to invest.
but from a small fry do i start building up my own databases? u mean the investment companies dont have standard clients for you to provide your services?


then what about equity/ proprietary trader are considered ops or also known as middle office? i believe this needs networking as well... and with the knowledge of buying securities and rules of being a trader which we need to acquire to comply with the MAS.. so CMFAS modules are more applicable to this route right? correct me if im wrong.
anyone knows if the modules are branched out to different categories in the banking field? or more for IB, traders?
would also like to know what is the minimum qualification to enter this segment if not CFA? thought of taking business mgt but major in finance. not sure where will it leads me to..

so CFA is more of being an analyst? and be in the back office?

 

[Yaco99]

thanks amerell & motexh for the additional info..



VP means Vice-president? :/

read pages before and saw IB are all about sales.. which also means they're working in the front line..
i explored the Linkedin and saw most are of high positions. let's say im an associate from Fortis Investments.. if i were to set up my databases at least im qualified to make other companies to invest.
but from a small fry do i start building up my own databases? u mean the investment companies dont have standard clients for you to provide your services?


then what about equity/ proprietary trader are considered ops or also known as middle office? i believe this needs networking as well... and with the knowledge of buying securities and rules of being a trader which we need to acquire to comply with the MAS.. so CMFAS modules are more applicable to this route right? correct me if im wrong.
anyone knows if the modules are branched out to different categories in the banking field? or more for IB, traders?
would also like to know what is the minimum qualification to enter this segment if not CFA? thought of taking business mgt but major in finance. not sure where will it leads me to..

so CFA is more of being an analyst? and be in the back office?

Yep VP means vice-president. But that doesn't mean anything though, Ranks and titles are inflated at the sales side so that clients can think they are dealing with someone important. VP is like the 3 rank you reach in most IB places. Analyst, Associate, Vice President->Director. Sometimes there's a SVP in between. Just like they call the person who picks up your call a manager.

Although I am not too sure what you mean when you say making the other companies invest? IB, despite its name, doesn't actually do any investments. They do M&A and help companies to raise funds instead. Some companies may decide to have one bank help them do all their deals but most of the time, they will meet the IB teams from different banks and decide then which to use. Also, for the bigger deals, it is usually handled by more then one bank but there will be one leading bank that manages most of it.

You will probably need to enter your bank's training programme if you are first starting out as a trader which will teach you all the rules you need to comply with so no worries there.

Not too sure regarding the CFA thing though, someone else help with that?

 

[Kyoji83]

1) If I am going to empoly a girl (Degree is replace with the word girl) & a boy (Dip is replace with the word boy) apply for the post, you think I will empoly him?


2) Why do you think have a Dip in Banking is better? (Talk to you really vomit blood)

if i had a diploma in Banking, it would be better...isnt it?

 

[Bedokian]

If i have a Banking Degree & a Electronics Engg poly diploma, is my diploma useless since i have a banking degree & intend to work in the bank?

I have an engineering diploma and an economics and management degree. Now I am doing an IT-related job.

So what do you think?

 

[Agravaine]

then what about equity/ proprietary trader are considered ops or also known as middle office? i believe this needs networking as well... and with the knowledge of buying securities and rules of being a trader which we need to acquire to comply with the MAS.. so CMFAS modules are more applicable to this route right? correct me if im wrong.
anyone knows if the modules are branched out to different categories in the banking field? or more for IB, traders?
would also like to know what is the minimum qualification to enter this segment if not CFA? thought of taking business mgt but major in finance. not sure where will it leads me to..

so CFA is more of being an analyst? and be in the back office?

Trading is front office, where you generate revenue. Back office is settling of trades, processing of documents, administrative type of stuff. Middle office is risk management, compliance, control.

If by analyst you mean equity research, then it's...somewhere between front and middle. Some banks put it in the front office, some in the middle.