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celtosaxon

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How many times must I say dun talk rubbish, I dun have dependents, Basic is still the best choice for me, u dunno what u dunno! Just mind your own business, your own decisions for yourself!

C’mon Maple... I said such a person MAY not care about the bequest. I did not say you SHOULD not care about the bequest.

Some people MAY want the bequest donated to their favorite charity. Some people MAY want the bequest placed in their coffin and buried with them. We both agree on this: nobody has the right to say it is right or wrong, it’s your money!

The point of this forum is to help us all make a more informed decision.
 

maple96

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C’mon Maple... I said such a person MAY not care about the bequest. I did not say you SHOULD not care about the bequest.

Some people MAY want the bequest donated to their favorite charity. Some people MAY want the bequest placed in their coffin and buried with them. We both agree on this: nobody has the right to say it is right or wrong, it’s your money!

The point of this forum is to help us all make a more informed decision.

dun make sweeping statements and behave like another someone (your "sifu" ) start cursing others!

"sometimes we should know when to stop arguing and let others be wrong"

Goodbye
 
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Okenba

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dun make sweeping statements and behave like another someone (your "sifu" ) start cursing others!

"sometimes we should know when to stop arguing and let others be wrong"

Goodbye

I just wanted to pop in and say, I love your signature.
"Dogs bark if they don't know the person."

How true.

Informative discussion on CPF life.
 

dork32

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It’s always good to validate our instincts. I have completed two simulations, investing the difference between Basic and Standard at a compounded 2% and 4% rate. Both add a small fraction of a percent, but not enough to move the needle. I don’t think anyone was expecting that it would.

i have already mentioned this. no simulation needed. 100K earning 4% vs 100 earning 4%. it is clear 100k is the winner.
 

henrylbh

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He always tell forumers here dun play games or become poor/destitute, now what games are he teaching, to defeat his Escalating Plan?

Cannot disagree. Practically everyone wins in choosing Escalating Plan.
 

BBCWatcher

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Valid point. IRR and it’s date exact cousin XIRR are internal rates of return, that means it calculates the returns in a vacuum, without considering anything external such as the opportunity costs of taking the lower payment.
That’s right. An extreme example of this phenomenon (IRR myopia) is to compare $1 million paid today versus $2 million paid a year from now. The latter is better, right? What if you need a $800K medical procedure and have 6 months to live if you don’t get it? Ooops.

Money is quite strange stuff in many respects, and IRRs only get you so far. In some cases they can point you in the wrong direction.

I had dismissed this because the difference didn’t seem material, but I should do the math. I believe the highest risk free rate of return available should be used in this case.
A 4.0% rate seems fair since you could plow the difference back into your Retirement Account. No, it won’t make a huge difference, but it will make some. It’ll tend to shift the “crossover” age down a bit, in particular. Another side benefit is that it’ll increase liquidity (which simple IRR measures don’t capture), particularly in the out years. That initial delta grows over time as the AMPs or CPF LIFE payout bumps grow in size, and so you have the option to spend that delta instead of plowing it back in. On the Basic Plan you’re permanently at the lower payout level. There’s also the fact the delta, consistently plowed back in, results in a bequest even if you live to age 115. And at some point — it’d be interesting to calculate the age — the bequest actually starts rising after hitting a minimum. The Basic Plan doesn’t do any of that.

All of these nuances are entirely fair and reasonable to calculate when your benchmark is the Basic Plan’s payout stream, because that’s the one you’re ostensibly prepared to live with for the rest of your life. (And your CPF nominees beyond that.) Or, if you aren’t prepared to live with the permanently lower Basic Plan payout stream, then it’s off the table. Either way, fair is fair.

It’s always good to validate our instincts. I have completed two simulations, investing the difference between Basic and Standard at a compounded 2% and 4% rate. Both add a small fraction of a percent, but not enough to move the needle. I don’t think anyone was expecting that it would.
I’m mostly interested in the reduction in “crossover” ages for bequest and IRRs. Those shift a little. Indeed, there is no crossover age in the bequest amount since both fall to zero eventually in a naive partial calculation, but not with Standard Plan plowbacks. The plowbacks result in a permanent bequest, falling first to some minimum then rising thereafter.

More generally this is a byproduct of something I harp on about life annuities: they’re lousy internally for delivering a bequest. But they’re wonderful for defending a bequest, or better yet lifetime gifts. Generally speaking. (Oddly enough, U.S. Social Security virtually guarantees a bequest: about US$200 last I checked, adjusted annually for inflation. None of the CPF LIFE payout plans do that, internally.)

I think we can all agree that the combination of payments and bequest from the Basic plan generates the highest rate of return on the original principle invested in the annuity for the 2 out of 3 members who don’t make it to age 90.
I’m not sure the age is 90, but over ages 70.1 to 8X, yes, that’s correct. (If you’re strictly interested in rate of return maximization, age 70 is your answer.) At age 69.9 you can decide.

That doesn’t mean everyone should choose Basic. And it doesn’t mean highest rate of return is the only thing that matters in the decision of which plan to choose.
That’s right.

There are many nuances, but take a simple case of an unmarried or widowed person... they may not care about the bequest at all, and would prefer higher payments during their lifetime. In fact, it might be better for them to have a “no bequest plan” with even higher payments.
CPF actually offered such a plan (a pure single life annuity) when CPF LIFE was introduced, but unfortunately it wasn’t popular enough to keep. (It might have been more popular if it optionally guaranteed a modest death benefit, something none of the other plans offer.) I’d like to see a “Partner Plan,” though.
 
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dork32

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That’s right. An extreme example of this phenomenon (IRR myopia) is to compare $1 million paid today versus $2 million paid a year from now. The latter is better, right? What if you need a $800K medical procedure and have 6 months to live if you don’t get it? Ooops.

this just shows you are totally ignorant. if you understand what irr is, it does take care of that. cpf standard is a unique case which interest is absolutely 0. this is probably the only time when irr does not make any difference with time. 0 interest is rare. i can think of a few only eg biscuit tin corp and mypillow bank.
 

dork32

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A 4.0% rate seems fair since you could plow the difference back into your Retirement Account. No, it won’t make a huge difference, but it will make some. It’ll tend to shift the “crossover” age down a bit, in particular. Another side benefit is that it’ll increase liquidity (which simple IRR measures don’t capture), particularly in the out years. That initial delta grows over time as the AMPs or CPF LIFE payout bumps grow in size, and so you have the option to spend that delta instead of plowing it back in. On the Basic Plan you’re permanently at the lower payout level. There’s also the fact the delta, consistently plowed back in, results in a bequest even if you live to age 115. And at some point — it’d be interesting to calculate the age — the bequest actually starts rising after hitting a minimum. The Basic Plan doesn’t do any of that.

not only are you ignorant, you are stubborn. i have mentioned that there is mirr. it is another variation of irr. it has the same basic concept but modified to include reinvestment.
 

dork32

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I’m mostly interested in the reduction in “crossover” ages for bequest and IRRs. Those shift a little. Indeed, there is no crossover age in the bequest amount since both fall to zero eventually in a naive partial calculation, but not with Standard Plan plowbacks. The plowbacks result in a permanent bequest, falling first to some minimum then rising thereafter.

another indication that you cannot make it. i already mentioned 4% of the 100 makes very little difference. a few months maybe. cetrosaxon already proved it in his simulation. you just want to argue about. why dont you do your own simulation and show it us if you are so curious?

wait, you are fantastic with your words. there is no breakeven but there is a cross over. dont they mean the same thing?
 

dork32

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I’m not sure the age is 90, but over ages 70.1 to 8X, yes, that’s correct. (If you’re strictly interested in rate of return maximization, age 70 is your answer.) At age 69.9 you can decide.

if you start at 65 it is 88. but you are starting at 70. saxon is correct. it is past 90.
 

dork32

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CPF actually offered such a plan (a pure single life annuity) when CPF LIFE was introduced, but unfortunately it wasn’t popular enough to keep. (It might have been more popular if it optionally guaranteed a modest death benefit, something none of the other plans offer.) I’d like to see a “Partner Plan,” though.

this confirms that of the majority of the fellow singaporeans has the same thought as me. we dont want large sum to be donated to the pool if we die young, even though payout is bigger.

foreign guys like you would probably prefer a large payout even if bequest is 0 because it is going to prevent elderly destitution. yes bequest is also 0 if you lived long enough. you can use your rhetoric on your foreign people.
many sg people do not think this way.
 

iceblendedchoc

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this confirms that of the majority of the fellow singaporeans has the same thought as me. we dont want large sum to be donated to the pool if we die young, even though payout is bigger.

foreign guys like you would probably prefer a large payout even if bequest is 0 because it is going to prevent elderly destitution. yes bequest is also 0 if you lived long enough. you can use your rhetoric on your foreign people.
many sg people do not think this way.

Not sure about majority but I am for the idea to give as little to the pool as possible. I would be laughing if I can live until 70.....
 

dork32

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That’s right. An extreme example of this phenomenon (IRR myopia) is to compare $1 million paid today versus $2 million paid a year from now. The latter is better, right? What if you need a $800K medical procedure and have 6 months to live if you don’t get it? Ooops.

and to prove that irr does take care of time value of money and bbc cannot do maths, look at the following eg:

if you put in 100 and it pays you 110 1 year later, irr is 10%

if you put in 100 and it pays you 110 2 years later, the irr is 4.88%
 

dork32

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Not sure about majority but I am for the idea to give as little to the pool as possible. I would be laughing if I can live until 70.....

before this i am not sure. i only know that there are more in hardwarezone that supports than oppose.

the fact that few like the idea of the single annuity cpf life scheme means that most of us are on the same page.

and welcome to the cpf life basic club
 
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celtosaxon

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With Basic, a larger bequest might allow loved ones to recover money they contributed toward your large medical bills (often the case near EOL).

This is the tail end of the retirement “smile” - which describes the tendency for higher spend in early retirement (go-go years), lower spend in the middle (slow-go), and higher spend at the end (no-go).

When I read the blogposts outside, their argument against Basic is that kids should take care of themselves... but they never mention the surviving spouse. This is the main consideration in our case, especially pre-90’s since our equity portfolio wouldn't have had as many years to grow.
 

henrylbh

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The fault, dear forumers, is not our calculations, but under our stars.
 
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henrylbh

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Go calculate what you want. But how to find out what is your actual payout and given bequest at each month that you are born.

The lower payout in the range mean does not mean the higher bequest in the relevant range of bequests, if you uplorry.

CPFL-payout-for-3-plans.jpg
 

cscs3

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Not sure about majority but I am for the idea to give as little to the pool as possible. I would be laughing if I can live until 70.....

This is just like insurance plan. One person cannot live till 70 does not make a impact to the whole company (CPF).

Also, remember if you cannot live till 70. It does not means your money is gone. You family can have it. If you don't have family to enjoy it, let's return this money to the society and those who need it!
 
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