CPF Top up questions

BBCWatcher

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Can i transfer from OA to MA?

Yes only if u are above 55, and SA will be emptied first followed by OA.
Thus it doesn't often make sense to do this, at least for the portion drawn from SA, since you're trading unrestricted/on demand/4% interest earning cash (age 55+ SA dollars) for MA dollars. That's not a good trade. And even if you are drawing primarily or entirely from OA you wouldn't do this (a transfer) if you have a tax relief opportunity available. You'd take the cash withdrawal, then you'd redeposit into MA with tax relief.
 

maple96

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Thus it doesn't often make sense to do this, at least for the portion drawn from SA, since you're trading unrestricted/on demand/4% interest earning cash (age 55+ SA dollars) for MA dollars. That's not a good trade. And even if you are drawing primarily or entirely from OA you wouldn't do this (a transfer) if you have a tax relief opportunity available. You'd take the cash withdrawal, then you'd redeposit into MA with tax relief.

Dun still teach rubbish in the end, ie withdraw from SA and redeposit into MA?

Can i transfer from OA to MA?

I am already hinting to u that u need to withdraw from SA first followed by OA. It is not worth it, be it transfer or withdraw, unless u have no choice. To each his own.
 
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whizzard

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I have been asked by a friend and happy to hear your views. Her scenario as follows:

Age: 55 (in Dec 2019)
Status: Homemaker and healthy thus far
Home: Fully paid
Source of Income: Only from investment returns
Objective: To live on investment returns with no principal drawdowns as far as possible
Immediate Expenses: No lumpy expenses expected in the near term

Investments:
• Cash: $3.7M (from recent divestments pending reinvestment opportunities)
• Stocks/REITs: $1.5M
• Properties: $5M (excluding home)

She did her SA shielding recently by buying a Low cost, Low volatility unit trust ~$140K
• RA has ~ $35K (vs FRS of $176K)
• MA has $60K (topped up recently)
• OA has ~$2K - still owe CPF $400K (P+I) for amount withdrawn for property investments

Now, she wants to lower her shield by topping up funds into her RA to form the FRS of $176K and thereafter sell the unit trust that was purchased earlier using the SA funds (proceeds to be repaid to the SA).

Options:

(a) Repay $141K cash to CPF OA to reduce the outstanding amount used for property investments and then transfer such amount to her RA to form the FRS - rationale is to reduce the amount outstanding to CPF OA whilst topping up her RA; or
(b) Top up $141K cash directly into her RA to form the FRS - rationale is to maintain the amount owing to CPF OA to allow flexibility to maximise the top-up of OA in the future.
• Thereafter, sell the SA unit trust and restore the SA balance.

Which would be a better option for her? I am thinking of (b). Since she is so cashed up and her cash returns would not exceed the 2.5% paid by CPF OA, she should maximise the amount she can top up to OA in the future and use it as her bank account (after fully utilising her funds from SA).
 
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Okenba

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Options:

(a) Repay $141K cash to CPF OA to reduce the outstanding amount used for property investments and then transfer such amount to her RA to form the FRS - rationale is to reduce the amount outstanding to CPF OA whilst topping up her RA; or
(b) Top up $141K cash directly into her RA to form the FRS - rationale is to maintain the amount owing to CPF OA to allow flexibility to maximise the top-up of OA in the future.
• Thereafter, sell the SA unit trust and restore the SA balance.

Which would be a better option for her? I am thinking of (b). Since she is so cashed up and her cash returns would not exceed the 2.5% paid by CPF OA, she should maximise the amount she can top up to OA in the future and use it as her bank account (after fully utilising her funds from SA).

Any withdrawal from CPF after 55 will come from SA before OA. Even if she returns money to OA, she will withdraw from SA first before she can touch OA.

After 55, I *think* the accrued interest disappears. I think. DYODD.
 

Thoreldan

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Why is she bothering with all these small little things when her investment is more than 10m ?

Frs is not even 2% of her investment.
 
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henrylbh

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Any withdrawal from CPF after 55 will come from SA before OA. Even if she returns money to OA, she will withdraw from SA first before she can touch OA.

After 55, I *think* the accrued interest disappears. I think. DYODD.

Can *think* (to ownself) but don't put it here. Can become fake news :s13:
 

henrylbh

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I have been asked by a friend and happy to hear your views. Her scenario as follows:

Age: 55 (in Dec 2019)
Status: Homemaker and healthy thus far
Home: Fully paid
Source of Income: Only from investment returns
Objective: To live on investment returns with no principal drawdowns as far as possible
Immediate Expenses: No lumpy expenses expected in the near term

Investments:
• Cash: $3.7M (from recent divestments pending reinvestment opportunities)
• Stocks/REITs: $1.5M
• Properties: $5M (excluding home)

She did her SA shielding recently by buying a Low cost, Low volatility unit trust ~$140K
• RA has ~ $35K (vs FRS of $176K)
• MA has $60K (topped up recently)
• OA has ~$2K - still owe CPF $400K (P+I) for amount withdrawn for property investments

Now, she wants to lower her shield by topping up funds into her RA to form the FRS of $176K and thereafter sell the unit trust that was purchased earlier using the SA funds (proceeds to be repaid to the SA).

Options:

(a) Repay $141K cash to CPF OA to reduce the outstanding amount used for property investments and then transfer such amount to her RA to form the FRS - rationale is to reduce the amount outstanding to CPF OA whilst topping up her RA; or
(b) Top up $141K cash directly into her RA to form the FRS - rationale is to maintain the amount owing to CPF OA to allow flexibility to maximise the top-up of OA in the future.
• Thereafter, sell the SA unit trust and restore the SA balance.

Which would be a better option for her? I am thinking of (b). Since she is so cashed up and her cash returns would not exceed the 2.5% paid by CPF OA, she should maximise the amount she can top up to OA in the future and use it as her bank account (after fully utilising her funds from SA).

Wealthy people no need to teach or advise them :s13: Want must pay for it =:p
 

Okenba

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Can *think* (to ownself) but don't put it here. Can become fake news :s13:

No problem. Since I'm trying to help, I'm willing to let some unscrupulous ppl sue me if they want. Boh pian. Want to be nice is like dat. :s13::s13::s13:
 

BBCWatcher

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....Now, she wants to lower her shield by topping up funds into her RA to form the FRS of $176K and thereafter sell the unit trust that was purchased earlier using the SA funds (proceeds to be repaid to the SA).

Options:

(a) Repay $141K cash to CPF OA to reduce the outstanding amount used for property investments and then transfer such amount to her RA to form the FRS - rationale is to reduce the amount outstanding to CPF OA whilst topping up her RA; or
(b) Top up $141K cash directly into her RA to form the FRS - rationale is to maintain the amount owing to CPF OA to allow flexibility to maximise the top-up of OA in the future.
• Thereafter, sell the SA unit trust and restore the SA balance.

Which would be a better option for her? I am thinking of (b).
Fundamentally I agree, but she's sitting on S$3.7 million in cash so she doesn't have to stop at the Full Retirement Sum. Why doesn't she top up her Retirement Account to the Enhanced Retirement Sum in one go? That'll require less than 7% of her massive cash pile.

She also has the option of topping up her Retirement Account again every time the ERS is raised. Lately the CPF Board has been increasing the ERS annually every January 1, so presuming that continues she could top up her RA in late January every year to the new ERS for the rest of her life if she wishes.

Is that a good deal in investment terms for her? Hell yes, I'd say.

Since she is so cashed up and her cash returns would not exceed the 2.5% paid by CPF OA, she should maximise the amount she can top up to OA in the future and use it as her bank account (after fully utilising her funds from SA).
Yes, exactly. Why "burn" any of that OA repayability unnecessarily?

To recap, here's the priority order for her (a person flush with cash who evidently has no better outlets for it):

1. Max out her RA with cash first ("ERS now, ERS forever");

2A. Pump cash into MediSave, up to the new BHS. She's already done this for 2020, and she'll be able to do this at least until the BHS is fixed for her when she celebrates her 65th birthday.

2B. Since, as a homemaker, she presumably has no compulsory contributions into CPF, pump another $34,940 into "all three" of her CPF accounts through a Voluntary Contribution. (The $34,940 figure for 2020 comes from $37,740 less the $2,800 she just pumped into MediSave.) A portion of her $34,940 will land in her Special Account where that portion earns 4% interest, so this pathway is a bit better than 2.5% interest -- i.e. a bit better than OA repayment.

She can also repeat steps 2A and 2B every late January if she wishes: top up her MediSave Account to the new BHS (she may qualify for some tax relief since she might have enough taxable rental income), then make a VC ("all three" contribution) for the remaining amount up to the CPF Annual Limit.

For future reference, she was too early with her MediSave Account top up this year. She gains no advantage doing that so early within this month (January) since interest on that top up won't start until February 1, and she loses a bit of bank interest for too much of January. (Yes, OK, she can afford that lost interest. ;)) A MediSave contribution via PayNow QR on the second to last business day of January should be perfectly fine.

3. Then, if she still wants to pump even more cash into CPF, repay her OA plus accrued interest. That'll earn 2.5% interest....

....and she'll still have ~S$3 million in cash after steps 1, 2A, 2B, and 3 for 2020.
 

henrylbh

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No problem. Since I'm trying to help, I'm willing to let some unscrupulous ppl sue me if they want. Boh pian. Want to be nice is like dat. :s13::s13::s13:

You want to help? Then better help wealthy people to donate instead of help them to make money :s13: Help them make money, must charge.
 
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squidy

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hi guys, i just topped up my CFP special account. The tax rebate is auto filed or i need to manually add it in?
 

AvengersAssemble

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Hi Guys,

My mum is over 55 already, and i wish to give her monthly allowance in the form of CPF top up, so as to also enjoy tax reliefs for myself.

Thus, do i login to my own CPF account and top up to her RA/SA account? or i have to go to an AXS machine to do it ?

Secondly, is there any limit in her CPF balance that may lead to me not being to enjoy the tax reliefs?

Thanks.
 
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Hi Guys,

My mum is over 55 already, and i wish to give her monthly allowance in the form of CPF top up, so as to also enjoy tax reliefs for myself.

Thus, do i login to my own CPF account and top up to her RA/SA account? or i have to go to an AXS machine to do it ?

Secondly, is there any limit in her CPF balance that may lead to me not being to enjoy the tax reliefs?

Thanks.
Login to own acc.

Yes. Up to 7k a year or 80k tax relief cap.

Sent from Samsung SM-N960F using GAGT
 

tangent314

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Secondly, is there any limit in her CPF balance that may lead to me not being to enjoy the tax reliefs?


If her RA savings is above the FRS, then it won't qualify for tax reliefs.
RA savings is calculated as the current RA balance plus amount withdrawn from RA minus government grant and interest earned
 

polyglob

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Why is she bothering with all these small little things when her investment is more than 10m ?

Frs is not even 2% of her investment.

To use a cliche, she has already won this game. Even if she wants to continue to play, no need to bother with the 5 cents 10 cents tricks.
 

lifeafter41

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If her RA savings is above the FRS, then it won't qualify for tax reliefs.
RA savings is calculated as the current RA balance plus amount withdrawn from RA minus government grant and interest earned

I thought topping up the RA to prevailing FRS can claim tax relief.
Eg, RA for 2019 is 176k
RA for 2020 is 181k

Top up 5k into RA using Cash in 2020 will enable one to claim tax relief for that top up amount.

It’s independent of any interest earned.
 

tangent314

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The way CPF writes it out is a bit complicated to understand, but yes it allows for the top ups as you understand it. The RA Savings is your RA balance plus withdrawn amount (which should be 0 if you are between 55-65 and on the CPF Life scheme) minus the interest earned.

So you have $181k in your account, next year you earn $8140 interest and the account becomes $189.14k while the FRS becomes 186k. Your RA savings is calculated as $189.14k - $8140 = $181k, so you have $5k room to top up.

I'm sure you'd want to ask, why the complicated roundabout wording of the rule? Well, it's to cater for several other cases that are not so simple, like amount withdrawn after property pledged for BRS, how much you can top up after starting on CPF Life, how much you can top up while on the RSS...
 

maple96

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If her RA savings is above the FRS, then it won't qualify for tax reliefs.
RA savings is calculated as the current RA balance plus amount withdrawn from RA minus government grant and interest earned

The way CPF writes it out is a bit complicated to understand, but yes it allows for the top ups as you understand it. The RA Savings is your RA balance plus withdrawn amount (which should be 0 if you are between 55-65 and on the CPF Life scheme) minus the interest earned.

So you have $181k in your account, next year you earn $8140 interest and the account becomes $189.14k while the FRS becomes 186k. Your RA savings is calculated as $189.14k - $8140 = $181k, so you have $5k room to top up.

I'm sure you'd want to ask, why the complicated roundabout wording of the rule? Well, it's to cater for several other cases that are not so simple, like amount withdrawn after property pledged for BRS, how much you can top up after starting on CPF Life, how much you can top up while on the RSS...

If u cannot explain CPF rules in simple english using your own words, dun do it to mislead, misinform or create fake news.

Worst still, u try to modify CPF rules by copying part of the rules incorrectly which confuse people and complicate matters.

And still contnue to deny your mistakes.
 
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