Does BTO really need mesh setup?

[firesong]

You certainly have a wonderful deal here. I guess usually people will not get such a good deal.

Quick search from Shopee shows that the cheapest new single Ruckus AP (R510, AC1200, shipping from China) is already at S$475.58. Then for local version, the cheapest one is at S$1019 from MediaPro (R550, AX1800).

A lot of ebay and catching tech refresh/company closure cycles really. Corporate hardware can last many, many years.

 

[Vodkilla]

Hey guys, looking for some advice.

For BTO the DB box is pretty small and putting the most powerful router there isn't the most optimal position also.
However the DB box will have a connection box to connect to 5 other LAN points in the house so I figure the most powerful router (specs wise - regardless of wifi reach) will make the most sense there since it does most of the processing.

Is there any good value high spec router (without wifi) I can use to put in DB box?

Option 1: ONT -> Powerful Router with wifi in bad location (DB Box) + wired connections
Option 2: ONT -> high spec router 1 without wifi -> powerful router 2 with wifi in good location (as access point) + wired connections

Since I will have many smart bulbs, if I choose Option 2 ... does router 2 (wireless) do the heavy lifting or router 1? I assume since router 2 is the access point, it will be router 1 doing the processing.

Hope experts can enlighten me as I am not so familar with networking

 

[Mach3.2]

Hey guys, looking for some advice.

For BTO the DB box is pretty small and putting the most powerful router there isn't the most optimal position also.
However the DB box will have a connection box to connect to 5 other LAN points in the house so I figure the most powerful router (specs wise - regardless of wifi reach) will make the most sense there since it does most of the processing.

Is there any good value high spec router (without wifi) I can use to put in DB box?

Option 1: ONT -> Powerful Router with wifi in bad location (DB Box) + wired connections
Option 2: ONT -> high spec router 1 without wifi -> powerful router 2 with wifi in good location (as access point) + wired connections

Since I will have many smart bulbs, if I choose Option 2 ... does router 2 (wireless) do the heavy lifting or router 1? I assume since router 2 is the access point, it will be router 1 doing the processing.

Hope experts can enlighten me as I am not so familar with networking

The "router 2" doesn't have to "process" (in the context of routing) anything, it's merely acting as an access point proving wifi access to wireless clients.
NAT and routing happens on "router 1".

 

[Vodkilla]

The "router 2" doesn't have to "process" (in the context of routing) anything, it's merely acting as an access point proving wifi access to wireless clients.
NAT and routing happens on "router 1".

I see... I guess then Option 1 makes the most sense if I want to keep the standard cabling. My priority is still the wired connections not the wireless connections.

 

[BradenHeat]

think end of the day,

whatever experts here say,

can they teach those newcommers, with minimum effort ?

or if its their friends, not paying a dime for the services,

whats the obvious choice? i would definitely go with AP setup if ive the leeway and time,

but,
the variables,

- time
- effort
- troubleshooting security and apps
- setup

not alot of folks here see the reality that [ yes mesh is dumb and expensive] you just cant beat convenience and easy [ reboot if all else fails ]

the [ im a tech, therefore it fits for all ]

or [ budget, therefore AP 2nd etc ] really are two extremes ive come across,

oh yea, wifi 6 does improve alot, if the equipment is good, i can never fathom people going for ac5 2nd hand

 

[firesong]

oh yea, wifi 6 does improve alot, if the equipment is good, i can never fathom people going for ac5 2nd hand

Provided all your devices are on 802.11ac. Including your phones, laptops, etc. Else the MCU numbers reported by Windows are not accurate representations.

You only benefit from the improvements when you have 100% devices. But as long as you have anything that isn't (the biggest culprit for most is their company laptop or some smart devices.), then the improvements are almost always negated to the level of placebo.

If you're buying BN and anticipate the upgrades, fine. If you can't control it, then it's your call.

Besides, many people in Singapore don't really use the 5Ghz band since, as illustrated by TS's question, they are using "coverage" as a benchmark, rather than acceptable modern surfing speeds. Coverage can be 802.11b style 54Mbps that happens a lot more than people think, whereas the minimum acceptable in 2022 should be 300-400Mbps to every client all over the house, which is well within the capabilities of 802.11ac. Going with Wifi6 may not necessarily yield the benefits you think it does.

The question becomes - do you really know what you are doing? And then weigh your pros and cons, your cost-benefit analysis will help you here.

 

[newcell]

Based on topic question.

I have seen BTO (4rm) without mesh, main router (not latest) away from the dB box. Placed centrally in one of the room linked to ONT in dB via room rj45 outlet. Signal good all areas within their home.

I always think mesh in HDB is truly an overkill. Having a good signal router placed in optimum position should be sufficient. Correct me if I missed some other HDB layout design.

 

[firesong]

Based on topic question.

I have seen BTO (4rm) without mesh, main router (not latest) away from the dB box. Placed centrally in one of the room linked to ONT in dB via room rj45 outlet. Signal good all areas within their home.

I always think mesh in HDB is truly an overkill. Having a good signal router placed in optimum position should be sufficient. Correct me if I missed some other HDB layout design.

Yes, but what frequency band? 2.4Ghz or 5Ghz? Close all the doors and test.

The point of my post was, people can get coverage. But coverage != good usable speeds. Perhaps some are okay as long as they see wifi signals. Those who do a lot of file transfers or have to do more sustained throughput work might have different requirements.

 

[newcell]

No harm trying out before jumping into mesh. That's my point. No offense.

 

[xiaofan]

No harm trying out before jumping into mesh. That's my point. No offense.

Indeed that is the good way to go. Try one main wireless router in the central location first before jumping into multiple AP or mesh solution.

On the other hand, quite some 4-room or 5-room BTO layout may not be able to serve by one single router if 5GHz band coverage is desired, based on posts in this thread.

300Mbps+ mentioned by firesong across the full flat is a very reasonable goal. But it is actually not easy at all with single wireless router for many BTOs. But I guess that may not be necessary as well since certain areas like toilets or kitchen area may only need stable 50Mbps.

I am living in an old HDB flat with no LAN ports myself. Luckily a single Asus RT-AX82U is able to cover the full flat with greater than 200Mbps speed for the laptop/desktop/tablet/mobile clients. So I have no plan to lay cables to the rooms. I actually disable 2.4GHz band of the RT-AX82U.

Still I have a few legacy 2.4GHz clients so I use another wireless AP (SingTel Mesh Router as of now) to serve them. For some lower end Arm development boards with poor wifi or without wifi, I actually use AV2000 power line adapters to serve them (100 Mbps to 200Mbps).

 

[firesong]

No harm trying out before jumping into mesh. That's my point. No offense.

None taken. Testing to see if it works out, and whether you can work around it, isn't a bad solution. There are increasingly more households with just 2 persons - husband and wife, with no children - so it's very easy to find a compromise. For those families with 4 or more users who need to be spread out behind closed doors, things will of course differ.

I have been trying quite a few solutions and placements of APs for my own home to know it's not doable with just one or two. No matter how we try. Too much built-in furniture, and floor-to-ceiling bookcases full of books.

This also must be stated. Same BTO layout, but each can have very different furniture that changes the landscape. There are still some readers, or some who want to do built-in cabinetry and all - these obstacles all affect the signals.

 

[xiaofan]

I have been trying quite a few solutions and placements of APs or mesh nodes for my own home to know it's not doable with just one or two. No matter how we try. Too many built-in furniture, and floor-to-ceiling bookcases full of books.

Your household may be an exceptional case. Most of the 4/5 room HDB flats should be able to be served by two good APs or mesh nodes if there are LAN ports available in the rooms (not counting the main router in the DB box if the DB box blocks wifi badly).

If LAN ports are not available (older HDB 4-room or 5-room flats) then probably two good triband mesh will do using wireless backhaul. Three nodes of good dual band mesh should work as well but the speed may suffer in some spots. Of course placement is important.

 

[firesong]

Your household may be an exceptional case. Most of the 4/5 room HDB flats should be able to be served by two good APs or mesh nodes if there are LAN ports available in the rooms (not counting the main router in the DB box if the DB box blocks wifi badly).

If LAN ports are not available (older HDB 4-room or 5-room flats) then probably two good triband mesh will do using wireless backhaul. Three nodes of good dual band mesh should work as well but the speed may suffer in some spots. Of course placement is important.

I have a few friends who have many bookcases full of books. The usual case does not apply for us.

I know many people in Singapore don't even want to keep books, much less have 4-5 Billy bookcases full.

 

[xiaofan]

Most of the 4/5 room HDB flats should be able to be served by two good APs or mesh nodes if there are LAN ports available in the rooms (not counting the main router in the DB box if the DB box blocks wifi badly).

Reference on how to choose a mesh solution. In this case, for average users, I will highly recommend Asus AImesh based solution. In case your DB box blocks wifi badly, to avoid the need of a router in the DB box, make sure you have two LAN ports next to each other in the living room during the renovation.

Main node: GT-AX6000/RT-AX86U/82U/58U/56U depending on budget
Mesh node: RT-AX82U/58U/55 depending on budegt

Low budget: RT-AX56U + RT-AX55 is rougly around S$179 + S$110 = S$289

https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/threads/how-to-choose-a-mesh-router.6452151/

 

[xiaofan]

On the other hand, quite some 4-room or 5-room BTO layout may not be able to serve by one single router if 5GHz band coverage is desired, based on posts in this thread.

300Mbps+ mentioned by firesong across the full flat is a very reasonable goal. But it is actually not easy at all with single wireless router for many BTOs. But I guess that may not be necessary as well since certain areas like toilets or kitchen area may only need stable 50Mbps.

The following is kind typical BTO floor plan, as per the local Youtuber Alex Teo. I tend to think he can probably optimize a bit to use only two nodes. But it may indeed diffciult to have 5GHz full covererage with single router in this case.

Reference : nice Youtube Video from Alex Teo (ignore some small mistakes)


Another older but more professional video from local Youtuber.

 

[lalalalalala]

Hey guys, looking for some advice.

For BTO the DB box is pretty small and putting the most powerful router there isn't the most optimal position also.
However the DB box will have a connection box to connect to 5 other LAN points in the house so I figure the most powerful router (specs wise - regardless of wifi reach) will make the most sense there since it does most of the processing.

Is there any good value high spec router (without wifi) I can use to put in DB box?

Option 1: ONT -> Powerful Router with wifi in bad location (DB Box) + wired connections
Option 2: ONT -> high spec router 1 without wifi -> powerful router 2 with wifi in good location (as access point) + wired connections

Since I will have many smart bulbs, if I choose Option 2 ... does router 2 (wireless) do the heavy lifting or router 1? I assume since router 2 is the access point, it will be router 1 doing the processing.

Hope experts can enlighten me as I am not so familar with networking

Option 2 is better for connectivity

Router 2 doesn't need to be high spec. Can just get any branded (e.g asus) router from carousell (usually the telco free ones are cheap) and put in ap mode.

The ap will just relay the data back to your main router at db box which wil do the heavy lifting.

 

[LoneTraveller]

There's also the issue of coverage and the definition of it. Most people don't realise that single-router coverage will fall back on the 2.4Ghz band for most areas of the house, with much lower throughputs compared to the 5Ghz band. Simple physics - the 5Ghz frequency has lower penetrative power and hence is more disrupted by your walls, furniture, etc. Do you just want coverage, or do you want acceptable surfing speeds even at the ends of the home with all doors up? Again, the definition of acceptable differs.

You will cover most flats using 802.11n on 2.4Ghz - it will be slow, and it will be old tech. You don't really need to be spending on a modern router if you're just bothered with 802.11n type coverage to meet your coverage needs. 802.11n was fully ratified in 2009, so any router from the last 13 years will do if that's all it takes to satisfy your coverage requirements. Note that on 2x2, 40Mhz, 802.11n has a maximum theoretical throughput of 300Mbps. Real world use will be typically 70% of that, and as you go further away from the router with more obstacles in between, it drops due to interference. Your ends of the home could be getting 54Mbps type speeds (again theoretical max, so 70% to get real world) or lower.

It falls back to what you want and expect from your network. If you want full 5Ghz coverage (to get your approx. 400-800Mbps real-world speeds even in the furthest parts of your home, then you will need to invest in more APs and site them accordingly.

Then the kicker: we're dealing with BITS here. The files we download are measured in BYTES, so divide further by eight (1 byte = 8 bits) and you can see file download speeds plummet still further. So suddenly my minimum 400Mbps coverage is in reality only 80 Megabytes per second - which is perfectly acceptable browsing and downloading speeds even when I'm in my room with the doors closed for zoom and all (or for some, with their aircon on).

For those of us who work in our rooms with our doors closed (because the doors also become another obstacle to penetrate), then you will see why.

Again, as an illustration, @Mach3.2's excellent heatmap of his typical BTO 5-room layout on the 5Ghz band best illustrates the effect of how the walls and doors can kill signals. One AP will not suffice even if centrally located because the walls and doors alone will kill signals. The structural wall itself will kill signals. This does not apply if you don't care for usable throughput and just want to fall back on "coverage" as sufficient barometer, but I won't be surprised if they struggle to penetrate structural walls too.
View attachment 35397

I know this is a old post but if anyone is looking for a economical way to blanket your 5room bto with 5ghz signal and you have the same/similar layout as above, you just need 1 Access point if you locate your ap in the corridor outside bathroom 2 and bedroom 2 .Anything extra is really extra if your needs are basic for a family of 5.

I have tried it and have gotten usable wireless speeds of between 100mpbs(worst corner of the master bedroom with doors closed ) to 500mpbs (directly under the ap) out of a unifi nanohd.

 

[xiaofan]

I know this is a old post but if anyone is looking for a economical way to blanket your 5room bto with 5ghz signal and you have the same/similar layout as above, you just need 1 Access point if you locate your ap in the corridor outside bathroom 2 and bedroom .Anything extra is really extra if your needs are basic for a family of 5.

I have tried it and have gotten usable wireless speeds of between 100mpbs(worst corner of the master bedroom with doors closed ) to 500mpbs (directly under the ap) out of a unifi nanohd.

https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/attachments/5ghz-5-room-png.35397/

Nice one. Looks like a good solution for those who use ceiling mount PoE APs like those from Ubiquiti and TP-Link Omada.

For those who use conventional consumer wireless router, that location is difficult -- usually no Ethernet port and no power port.

 

[LoneTraveller]

https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/attachments/5ghz-5-room-png.35397/

Nice one. Looks like a good solution for those who use ceiling mount PoE APs like those from Ubiquiti and TP-Link Omada.

For those who use conventional consumer wireless router, that location is difficult -- usually no Ethernet port and no power port.

Yeah. That location needs to be ceiling mounted and poe is a must and that's why I referenced that post showing 2 ceiling mounted ap.

For those that do not have a poe switch, they can buy a poe injector which they can use in the db box/wherever their router is located to power their ceiling mounted ap if their ap does not come with it.

 

[OnePunch!!]

Actually why need mesh when new BTOs all have LAN ports in all rooms?
Wouldn't a good router + access point in strategic rooms be much more cost effective?
That being said, if I run many smart devices (30+ smart bulbs + other IOT devices) what would be an ideal configuration to distribute load and have optimized network?
I was thinking of 1 good router + AP other end of house under 1 network. Any recommendations of a good combo? (prefer consumer options) WIFI 6 and looking for value for money (high cost is ok if can justify)

reallyeh