EndowUs Roboadvisor: investing using CPF

[YouHeypiCanLiao]

Is it cheaper than buying S27? Genuine question here, I haven't looked at the fee structure between the 2.

Dont think you can use CPF OA to buy S27 leh. I couldnt find the CPF option in DBS Vickers.

Also, dont think you can use CPF OA to buy Lionglobal US Infinity, at least not on Poems....

Govt thinks that it is safer to invest your CPF OA into SG stocks and Sg based ETFs......LOL

So with CPF-OA , endow-US overall fees cheapest?

 

[RedsYWNA]

So with CPF-OA , endow-US overall fees cheapest?

I think its not a question of cheapest. There's realistically no other choice, unless MOM implements a long overdue recommendation that they accepted a few years ago to provide Singaporeans with passive, diversified low cost indices.

But such a move will reduce GIC access to cheap CPF funding for their investments.

 

[Mr. Wood]

Is it cheaper than buying S27? Genuine question here, I haven't looked at the fee structure between the 2.

i was trying to do a similar comparison oso earlier. but one bro say cannot compare like dis becoz endowus got tralier fee rebate etc etc.

but personal pov, juz frm fees alone, if one time lump sum hoot and forget, S27 juz pay one time commission. but if one time and u hold 10 yrs, u will be paying 10yrs worth of fees to endowus. hav to do yr own math see which is cheaper.

structure wise, S27 is the ETF itself expense ratio ~0.1%. whereas endowus use the unit trust expense ratio ~0.7%. (expense ratio check frm FSM website).

yah, but if wanna use CPF, looks like only endowus can. oso a mystery to me dat FT allow to touch CPF money.

 

[YouHeypiCanLiao]

I think its not a question of cheapest. There's realistically no other choice, unless MOM implements a long overdue recommendation that they accepted a few years ago to provide Singaporeans with passive, diversified low cost indices.

But such a move will reduce GIC access to cheap CPF funding for their investments.

i was trying to do a similar comparison oso earlier. but one bro say cannot compare like dis becoz endowus got tralier fee rebate etc etc.

but personal pov, juz frm fees alone, if one time lump sum hoot and forget, S27 juz pay one time commission. but if one time and u hold 10 yrs, u will be paying 10yrs worth of fees to endowus. hav to do yr own math see which is cheaper.

structure wise, S27 is the ETF itself expense ratio ~0.1%. whereas endowus use the unit trust expense ratio ~0.7%. (expense ratio check frm FSM website).

yah, but if wanna use CPF, looks like only endowus can. oso a mystery to me dat FT allow to touch CPF money.

We already know that buying the ETF direct is the cheapest.. but the constraint here is using CPF-OA.. so I guess based on this discussion.. we can confirm that endow-us has the cheapest platform to UTs? ( especially SnP500 via Lion Infinity )

 

[YouHeypiCanLiao]

Layman's question.

I invest 20k using this.

Can withdraw anytime?

I don't see why we can't it's not like you're putting to CPF-SA

 

[RedsYWNA]

We already know that buying the ETF direct is the cheapest.. but the constraint here is using CPF-OA.. so I guess based on this discussion.. we can confirm that endow-us has the cheapest platform to UTs? ( especially SnP500 via Lion Infinity )

For SRS, buying lionglobal via POEMS or even S27 itself may be cheaper.

For CPF OA, no other choices available. Even if its 1% exp ratio, if you want to invest into S&P 500 via CPF OA, you lanlan have to accept the high exp ratio.

 

[Kojo0403]

We already know that buying the ETF direct is the cheapest.. but the constraint here is using CPF-OA.. so I guess based on this discussion.. we can confirm that endow-us has the cheapest platform to UTs? ( especially SnP500 via Lion Infinity )

For me, I uses SRS to buy into S27 and TID (Xtrackers MSCI China), recently added HST(Lion-OCBC Sec Hang Seng TECH ETF). And cash to buy into Nasdaq/NYSE ETFs.

CPF-OA if I do invest, I will use it for local REITs or ES3 (STI ETF) when its valuation gets attractive e.g. last year when STI falls hit 2,700.

End of the day, CPF-OA is for housing + annuity sake.. Its good to put it in lower risk product and if possible SGD denominated. US market is having a good run with ATH after ATH.. But might wish to think twice when using CPF-OA monies..

So assuming my retirement portfolio looks like this.. in brackets will be the funding source i uses.

25% China -- TID/ HST (SRS)
25% Singapore -- ES3/ REITs + Banks (SRS/ Cash/ occasionally CPF-OA) generally prefer cash for single REITs counters since there may be occasion rights subscription.
25% US --- S27 (SRS), XLK US /ICLN US (Cash) generally using cash since SRS has some restriction/ higher fees to convert SGD to USD.
10% Bonds -- MBH (SG Corp Bonds), CYC (China Gov Bonds) (SRS/Cash) -- better than US bonds since USD has been on a long term depreciation trend and interest rates is lower than SIngapore/China Bonds.
5% Gold -- O87 / GLD US -- both are the same underlying SPDR Gold Trust. its a choice between CDP custody vs lower trading cost.

 

[limster]

We already know that buying the ETF direct is the cheapest.. but the constraint here is using CPF-OA.. so I guess based on this discussion.. we can confirm that endow-us has the cheapest platform to UTs? ( especially SnP500 via Lion Infinity )

https://endowus.com/support/3600006...-lion-global-infinity-us-500-stock-index-fund

Endowus have arranged for Lion Global Investors to rebate the trailer fees which Endowus will refund 100% back to the client to achieve a lower net management fee of 20bps (0.20% p.a.).

The published management fee is 0.475% so the rebate is only 0.275%, but you pay Endowus 0.4%. So 'nett' you are paying 0.125% more fees which I guess is not a huge issue.

Endowus is most worth it if the rebate is >0.4%. For example, First State Bridge management fee is 1.25% and the rebate is 0.6%. This means you save 0.2% in expenses by going with Endowus for this UT.

 

[Kojo0403]

https://endowus.com/support/3600006...-lion-global-infinity-us-500-stock-index-fund

Endowus have arranged for Lion Global Investors to rebate the trailer fees which Endowus will refund 100% back to the client to achieve a lower net management fee of 20bps (0.20% p.a.).

The published management fee is 0.475% so the rebate is only 0.275%, but you pay Endowus 0.4%. So 'nett' you are paying more fees.

Endowus is most worth it if the rebate is >0.4%?

After rebate, the fund TER is at 0.40%. If you add to Endowus advisory fee of 0.40% (lowest for SRS/CPF), it adds up to 0.80% per annum.

Thats nearly 9 times of what you may if you buy S27 or SPY US directly.

To put it in perspective.. even the recently launched Hang Seng TECH ETF by Lion global only has a fee of 0.68% per annum.. and we are comparing a 90M fund vs the world largest S&P500 fund.

Unless you have a strong urge to invest into S&P using your CPF monies or CPF-OA is the only account that store your retirement monies and there is no cash/ srs funds to deploy.. this is unlikely to be the best option.

 

[s0crates]

Honestly... You are looking too far ahead. There is always a possibility that endowus can further lower its fee, or the fund TER reduces as fund size grows, or even onboard some of the low cost fund that are available.

You just got to get the product that is about probably the best/close to the best as it is, and bet on the right horse.

Endowus HAS brought in the cheapest diversified funds into cpf, and is likely to onboard the dimensional funds in the near future (1Q 2020 iirc).

I think their track record is promising... If we are going to obsess over what we can do on Ibkr with ucits fund then obviously the entire industry/market won't even start to move towards something that's a win win for everyone, especially for cpf and SRS.

I have over 100k USD in ibkr and I am happy to use Endowus for cpf/SRS because it's convenient, low cost enough and offer something different.

Current cost is not everything...

After rebate, the fund TER is at 0.40%. If you add to Endowus advisory fee of 0.40% (lowest for SRS/CPF), it adds up to 0.80% per annum.

Thats nearly 9 times of what you may if you buy S27 or SPY US directly.

To put it in perspective.. even the recently launched Hang Seng TECH ETF by Lion global only has a fee of 0.68% per annum.. and we are comparing a 90M fund vs the world largest S&P500 fund.

Unless you have a strong urge to invest into S&P using your CPF monies or CPF-OA is the only account that store your retirement monies and there is no cash/ srs funds to deploy.. this is unlikely to be the best option.

 

[Kojo0403]

Yes, we do have to give credit to Endowus in providing a service to local investors similarly to Syfe, StashAway and others.

10-20 years back, options for local investors were mainly UTs and really expensive ILPs promoted aggressively by the insurance agent.

0.8% or even 1.2% is generally cheaper that traditional UTs with up to 2%-3% sales charge and 1-2% annual management fees.

There is also nothing wrong if somebody wish to pay additional 0.40% to 0.60% fees to Endowus, StashAway and Syfe if they value their time more than the additional fees or their portfolio is too small hence higher fees to do any portfolio rebalancing and diversification.It is also an excellent starting point for new investors to have a peek at how these fund managers allocate assets and what are the ETFs / UTs they typically uses.

I guess the point some of us is trying to drive is that there is always something better and more suitable to each individual.

If I am a cost-sensitive investor, over the long run, buying direct without an intermediary would still provide the best yield.(IMHO)

End of the day.. these robos operate as a business instead of social enterprise and we should not expect them not to earn anything from providing this service.

 

[RedsYWNA]

After rebate, the fund TER is at 0.40%. If you add to Endowus advisory fee of 0.40% (lowest for SRS/CPF), it adds up to 0.80% per annum.

Thats nearly 9 times of what you may if you buy S27 or SPY US directly.

To put it in perspective.. even the recently launched Hang Seng TECH ETF by Lion global only has a fee of 0.68% per annum.. and we are comparing a 90M fund vs the world largest S&P500 fund.

Unless you have a strong urge to invest into S&P using your CPF monies or CPF-OA is the only account that store your retirement monies and there is no cash/ srs funds to deploy.. this is unlikely to be the best option.

I have some surplus CPF OA (around 60k) after accounting for mthly deduction for housing loan. Rather than earn 2.5% for the next 20 years, I would rather put it in a passive index like lionglobal infinity US 500, and let compounding do its magic.

Its really independent of whether I have other cash/srs elsewhere. For me, its how to make the most sensible compounding decision - 2.5% over the next 20 years, or into S&P 500 and review 20 years later.

 

[yiron]

Honestly... You are looking too far ahead. There is always a possibility that endowus can further lower its fee, or the fund TER reduces as fund size grows, or even onboard some of the low cost fund that are available.

You just got to get the product that is about probably the best/close to the best as it is, and bet on the right horse.

Endowus HAS brought in the cheapest diversified funds into cpf, and is likely to onboard the dimensional funds in the near future (1Q 2020 iirc).

I think their track record is promising... If we are going to obsess over what we can do on Ibkr with ucits fund then obviously the entire industry/market won't even start to move towards something that's a win win for everyone, especially for cpf and SRS.

I have over 100k USD in ibkr and I am happy to use Endowus for cpf/SRS because it's convenient, low cost enough and offer something different.

Current cost is not everything...

Yea, I think if cost efficiency is the only consideration, then robo advisers like Endowus is definitely not the best option. No matter how u cut it, DIY is probably always gonna be cheaper. Robo is still a fairly decently option for people who wants passive investing with minimal effort and relatively low cost (though not necessarily lowest).

Edit: my opinion above pertains to cash investment, where there is no investment restriction unlike SRS and CPF.

 

[Kojo0403]

Yea, I think if cost efficiency is the only consideration, then robo advisers like Endowus is definitely not the best option. No matter how u cut it, DIY is probably always gonna be cheaper. Robo is still a fairly decently option for people who wants passive investing with minimal effort and relatively low cost (though not necessarily lowest).

Yes, agreed

 

[Kojo0403]

I have some surplus CPF OA (around 60k) after accounting for mthly deduction for housing loan. Rather than earn 2.5% for the next 20 years, I would rather put it in a passive index like lionglobal infinity US 500, and let compounding do its magic.

Its really independent of whether I have other cash/srs elsewhere. For me, its how to make the most sensible compounding decision - 2.5% over the next 20 years, or into S&P 500 and review 20 years later.

The point that I was trying to drive was - i would prefer to invest using SRS/Cash into S&P 500 since that will offer me direct entry into the product at a lowest cost.(0.09bps p.a.) and use CPF-OA for sgd investments to complete my asset allocation..my personal preference is to have a good mix of local reits/ sgd income generating asset along with US/China growth stocks --personal preference.

Certainly it is not the worst option to go with your route..

 

[s0crates]

Agree for cash, somewhat agree for SRS. Disagree for cpf. What's the next best option for cpf? From DIY especially

Unit trusts options? More expensive for sure.

STI etf? You got to accumulate to around $5K to make brokerage cost cost efficient. That's roughly 4-5 months of accumulation for someone with 5-6k salary.

And in the meantime, you lose the gains in those months, which more than cover the higher cost in the process.

Over the long term STI as a viable investment option is highly suspect. Sad truth. Look at where SEA limited, a Singapore company choose to list, and how big it has grown. More will follow its footsteps.

I have done STI with cpf and I got rid of all of it. Thank God. Sti still haven't gone back to old highs while global indicies has been going past old highs in the past few months.

You cannot efficiently invest in single stock because of the single stock restriction.

Yea, I think if cost efficiency is the only consideration, then robo advisers like Endowus is definitely not the best option. No matter how u cut it, DIY is probably always gonna be cheaper. Robo is still a fairly decently option for people who wants passive investing with minimal effort and relatively low cost (though not necessarily lowest).

 

[yiron]

Agree for cash, somewhat agree for SRS. Disagree for cpf. What's the next best option for cpf? From DIY especially

Unit trusts options? More expensive for sure.

STI etf? You got to accumulate to around $5K to make brokerage cost cost efficient. That's roughly 4-5 months of accumulation for someone with 5-6k salary.

And in the meantime, you lose the gains in those months, which more than cover the higher cost in the process.

Over the long term STI as a viable investment option is highly suspect. Sad truth. Look at where SEA limited, a Singapore company choose to list, and how big it has grown. More will follow its footsteps.

I have done STI with cpf and I got rid of all of it. Thank God. Sti still haven't gone back to old highs while global indicies has been going past old highs in the past few months.

You cannot efficiently invest in single stock because of the single stock restriction.

Yea I should clarify that my opinion pertains to cash investment where there is no investment restriction like SRS and CPF

 

[Shutterfly]

Opening an account, anyone wants to share their referral link?

PM you already. if you still need it.

 

[FinalDestiny...]

You do realise the post you quoted is a month's performance right

Investments returns are never guaranteed, but I believe most who have invested in 2019/2020 has gained >2.5%.

 

[RedsYWNA]

You do realise the post you quoted is a month's performance right

Investments returns are never guaranteed, but I believe most who have invested in 2019/2020 has gained >2.5%.

I read some materials that state that in the long term, stock volatility is lesser than bonds, with higher expected returns too.

Sounds like cpf oa is a candidate for this.