FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early) Movement

[highsulphur]

There are a few upper tail end HDB resale flats at S$1.4 million now. At that price you can buy essentially any HDB resale flat you wish as long as you don’t run into quota barriers.

On edit: In January, 2024, a HDB flat in The Peak (Toa Payoh) sold for S$1,568,888. That’s the current record high at last report.

Don't think such high prices are something we should be celebrating about for public housing but it is what it is now

 

[highsulphur]

20% of S$7 million (S$1.4 million) is now at the upper end of HDB resale flats. Which would be pretty smart, actually. But a lot of people in the 1% cohort don’t do that. If for example 40% of their household net worth (S$2.8 million) is tied up in their home then the lifestyle-financial math shifts quite dramatically. And that’s at 40%, but many of these few households go higher than that. Don’t cry for that household of course, but I sometimes wonder about certain lifestyle decisions.

I think 40% is more common than 20% for Singaporeans for home residence value vs total networth. Mine is around 35% assuming I guess my wife's nw correctly

 

[starlight318]

I think 40% is more common than 20% for Singaporeans for home residence value vs total networth. Mine is around 35% assuming I guess my wife's nw correctly

Same. Mine also 35%

 

[polyglob]

There are a few upper tail end HDB resale flats at S$1.4 million now. At that price you can buy essentially any HDB resale flat you wish as long as you don’t run into quota barriers.

On edit: In January, 2024, a HDB flat in The Peak (Toa Payoh) sold for S$1,568,888. That’s the current record high at last report.

These are outliers. I don't have data but I reckon median should be much lower.

I bought my 5rm for 150k in the mid-90s. Similar 5-roomers in the neighborhood were selling for 300-400k 2nd hand after 5-10 years. Nowadays these would be the outliers on the other side of the spectrum

 

[revhappy]

You have pension working for a EU bank here in Singapore?

Most foreign banks offer something in lieu of CPF for foreign workers. In Credit Suisse my previous job also I had, with JP Morgan funds in Hong Kong. Barclays has with PWC or something, my friend used to tell me. SCB is the best, they give you cash in hand for foreigners in lieu of CPF. My bank offer foreigners, also Hong Kong based funds. Deutsche also has something similar.

I am surprised this is not common knowledge, already?

Edit: I just read UBS does SRS in lieu of CPF for foreigners
https://www.glassdoor.sg/Benefits/UBS-CPF-Singapore-BNFT525_E3419_N217_IP2.htm

 

[BBCWatcher]

Don't think such high prices are something we should be celebrating about for public housing but it is what it is now

I don't think many people are celebrating those prices except perhaps the flat owners who sold them.

I think 40% is more common than 20% for Singaporeans for home residence value vs total networth. Mine is around 35% assuming I guess my wife's nw correctly

Same. Mine also 35%

Since housing is comparatively expensive in Singapore, and since it's frequently owned (on a long leasehold basis anyway), yes, many households have a large fraction of wealth tied up in their homes. Understandably they don't feel that wealthy even though on paper they might be.

These are outliers. I don't have data but I reckon median should be much lower.

Of course, but the top 1% of households (measured by net worth) are outliers, too. That said, you probably need S$1.4 million to buy one of the nicer 5 room resale flats in the few HDB developments in central areas with long remaining leaseholds. Most HDB resale flat buyers aren't making offers on that sort of flat, but a decent number are.

 

[highsulphur]

Most foreign banks offer something in lieu of CPF for foreign workers. In Credit Suisse my previous job also I had, with JP Morgan funds in Hong Kong. Barclays has with PWC or something, my friend used to tell me. SCB is the best, they give you cash in hand for foreigners in lieu of CPF. My bank offer foreigners, also Hong Kong based funds. Deutsche also has something similar.

I am surprised this is not common knowledge, already?

are these retirement funds or pensions?

as in after a certain number of service, they will pay a certain sum for life beyond a certain age even though you left the firm years ago?

I am not aware. It is uncommon for Singaporeans to have pensions nowadays.

 

[revhappy]

are these retirement funds or pensions?

as in after a certain number of service, they will pay a certain sum for life beyond a certain age even though you left the firm years ago?

I am not aware. It is uncommon for Singaporeans to have pensions nowadays.

Sorry, they are not pensions. They are just unit trust funds with lockin until you leave the employer.

 

[highsulphur]

Sorry, they are not pensions. They are just unit trust funds with lockin until you leave the employer.

that makes more sense. Unlikely any company will put aside that much future liability for employees nowadays

 

[limster]

just curious, since got quite a few HNW >$1m investors in this forum - have you are asked to be part of any of these wealth surveys? Knight Frank, Capegimi, Credit Suisse, HSBC etc. They always claim they 'survey' HNW individuals in Singapore but I've never been asked and I don't know anyone who has. Probably there are so too many HNW in SG.

 

[DevilPlate]

I think 40% is more common than 20% for Singaporeans for home residence value vs total networth. Mine is around 35% assuming I guess my wife's nw correctly

Depends on what stage of life.....at initial stage mine was like 90% when i bought my first home.....

 

[highsulphur]

just curious, since got quite a few HNW >$1m investors in this forum - have you are asked to be part of any of these wealth surveys? Knight Frank, Capegimi, Credit Suisse, HSBC etc. They always claim they 'survey' HNW individuals in Singapore but I've never been asked and I don't know anyone who has. Probably there are so too many HNW in SG.

actually you can be a HNW individual that still falls under the radar if you never open any HNW accounts with any financial institutions or you could be "under-declared" basis what you have with them. most of my wealth are in equities which none of these FI will see.

So I believe the number of HNW in SG are unestimated

 

[DevilPlate]

just curious, since got quite a few HNW >$1m investors in this forum - have you are asked to be part of any of these wealth surveys? Knight Frank, Capegimi, Credit Suisse, HSBC etc. They always claim they 'survey' HNW individuals in Singapore but I've never been asked and I don't know anyone who has. Probably there are so too many HNW in SG.

1M simi HNW

no 10M no talk liao lah

 

[limster]

1M simi HNW

no 10M no talk liao lah

10M will be for their VHNW survey and 30m will be for their UHNW survey.

If they only interview VHNW for their supposed HNW survey, then obviously all the data will be skewed, or more importantly, no different from their VHNW survey

 

[DevilPlate]

These are outliers. I don't have data but I reckon median should be much lower.

I bought my 5rm for 150k in the mid-90s. Similar 5-roomers in the neighborhood were selling for 300-400k 2nd hand after 5-10 years. Nowadays these would be the outliers on the other side of the spectrum

median 4rm flats around 500k+ now....
5rm shd be 600k+

 

[celtosaxon]

Sorry, they are not pensions. They are just unit trust funds with lockin until you leave the employer.

Until recently my employer (not a bank) had a similar arrangement - but it was a tax protected lump sum based on a simple formula: years of service x factor x last drawn salary. Now it has been scrapped and they deposit to SRS instead.

 

[Trader11]

Getting back to FIRE discussion; I find it is a bit ironic that the opportunity cost of retiring early is so high, because your late 40s to your late 50s this 10 years period or a decade can be the most productive or fruitful years financially; if you somehow continue working in a relaxed job.

Whereas in our 20s we were paid so low; the money I made in my 20s is so insignificant now vs how much I made in my last 15 years.

Now given how bad the job market is for fresh passouts in tech or other fields while it is relatively easy for us experienced people to carry on our jobs; it just feels criminal to give up a well paying job where you are cruising.

I dont think our kids will have it as easy as we had, we enjoyed the best meaty part of the tech boom. I believe the tech jobs boom is getting over now; even the best software engineers working for big tech, fintechs etc are being laid off so market is getting flooded with over supply of tech talent; so who is going to hire fresh college passouts?

Ironic is that you will perform better in work after FIRE...you will not be obsessed with promotion and salary. Instead you can think objectively

 

[revhappy]

Ironic is that you will perform better in work after FIRE...you will not be obsessed with promotion and salary. Instead you can think objectively

Yes, although we will be reporting to a manager who is obsessed with promotion and salary and his performance is often directly linked to our performance, which is something I hate.

I also think, it is detrimental to openly say that we are not interested in promotion or salary hikes, because often, this is not a choice for us. It is basically a carrot or a stick. Initially they try the carrot, so it is better to just take the carrot and pretend to be interested in the promotion and do just the bare minimum.

 

[revhappy]

Another thing I realised, in a low inflation environment, it is okay to not get any hikes or promotion, because your expenses are pretty constant.

But in high inflation environment like we had over last 3 years, we need to get good salary hikes and promotion just to keep in step with the rising costs.

My rent went up by over 50% over the last 3 years, if I didn't get salary hike and promotion, I would feel really depressed.

I think even people who own their houses and are on mortgage they payments went up, so salary hikes are necessary.

Some countries have perpetual high inflation and high growth, but in these countries the employees always have to demand good hikes. Other countries have perpetual low inflation and low growth, I guess employees in these countries just need to keep their jobs and same salary is good enough.

 

[DevilPlate]

Ironic is that you will perform better in work after FIRE...you will not be obsessed with promotion and salary. Instead you can think objectively

No leh….once u got enough to call it a day, most paper tiger generals will keep threatening to quit whenever bo song at work