Noticed that there's not much discussion on the Fourth Avenue Residences even though location is in Bukit Timah, near the good schools and near mrt Station. And I have just checked online and it's only abt 35% sold so far. Possible to share your thoughts on this development, whether it's worth buying?
Fourth Avenue Residences
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daheigou999
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Launch price was too high for an area with low demand for small units. These rich people don’t fancy the mickey mouse new launches these days
However, Allgreen just hired Gafoor to market the BT Collection so sales will likely pick up strongly
However, Allgreen just hired Gafoor to market the BT Collection so sales will likely pick up strongly
Gafoor so gao lat one ah? I find his voice a bit annoying though.
daheigou999
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He’s a legit market mover. Can talk up any development and turn ____ into gold.
Fourth ave is probably facing stiff competition in the upper bukit timah area and also CCR with so many launches at the moment, many can be below $2000 psf. Fourth ave has some good attributes but for above $2000 psf, I believe the richer folks have more options (even FH ones or newer resale condos).
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Agreed, this could be one of the reasons, those with a smaller budget had turned to Beauty World area, and those with a bigger budget had a lot more options to explore. Sometime back, there was a discount for FAR, think lowest psf as low as $21xxpsf.
I think this project is surrounded amidst of a sea of FH properties which in psf wise are lower though with a bigger quantum. In addition, i think this project is also not within 1km of any schools. Hence making it looks slightly less attractive.
Otherwise seems like a good product, e.g. good address + beside MRT station + good food options
normoh
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Only block 6 is within 1km of Raffles Girls Primary. Would be a deal breaker to sell it after 5-7 year stay? I'm seriously looking at this for the quantum and convenience tick my boxes.
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I also think its a development with many upsides. But I'm also concerned about capital appreciation. I just posted a separate reply on this in another fourth avenue thread before seeing this thread. Unfortunately, I'm a newbie and can't repost the link to that thread here. So I'm regurgitating what I posted before here, hopefully it doesn't contravene any guidelines.
The psf has dropped since launch day (now around 22XX - 23XX) and its quite close to breakeven cost (about $2100 ++) from what I hear from agents. So it seems that buying in now is safe because the prices unlikely to go any lower - if anything it would go higher nearing TOP.
Looking at CCR prices condo launch prices right now, PSF can be as high as 26XX - 30XX such as the launches in Holland V and River Valley area. Yet, CCR prices are considered fairly suppressed right now based on UA price index - so prices will only get higher once economy recovers.
As for rental, there isn't any condos with one bedders at Sixth Avenue. For that matter, there is only fifth and sixth avenue residences there which are small developments with less and older facilities so there really isn't much options if anyone is looking to stay here (whether it is 1, 2 or 3 beds). There are condos along KAP, Tan KAh Kee, Botanical Gardens and Stevens Road and a check on property guru shows that 1 bed units are not many available for rental. Rental transactions for these condos are also quite healthy which indicates demand.
If purchasing 2-3 bedrooms for own stay, then there is also RoyalGreen but it's definitely more pricey (around 26XX-27XX psf). While there is argument that those who are rich will choose freehold over leasehold, but there is always another group of aspiring owners who wish to stay in this prestigious area but are unable to afford the FH pricing (and may prefer to commute by MRT because of it being at doorstep and leads straight to CBD or One north within 15-20 min). Across the road, there is a couple of plots that has been designated as residential (the whole turf city area which is hugeee, and a small plot directly opp Fourth Avenue) and are in D11. These are unlikely to be opened for bids in the next few years so supply will be limited once RoyalGreen and Fourth Avenue is sold out. And even then, these plots won't be as near to the amenities (which I think is really good - many local eateries with decent pricing, restaurants, banks, medical and dental clinics), and not as close to the MRT.
While the above seems to be big advantages of fourth avenue, my biggest gripe is whether there is future capital appreciation. It is not very near to the Bt Timah Transformation - even the sky park that will be built is 10 mins by foot from Fourth Avenue. I don't forsee any ripple effects from the changes at Beauty World either. Even if Beauty World Centre or Bt Timah shopping centre/plaza is revamped into good size shopping centres, it is still two MRTs away. And the Grandstand is not really a good shopping mall though they offer daily shuttle service from sixth avenue bus stop. It may very well be demolished anyway since it is in the Turf City area slated for residential. But capital appreciation is likely to happen if the lands opposite are released for condo launches - it is quite certain that land prices will only be higher, which translates to high launch prices. But this would be in the long term and even then there is some uncertainty. Also, rental yield likely to be lower despite the potential demand due to higher quantum but then rental yield in CCR is typically below 3.
If you are buying for own stay, I suppose capital appreciation would be secondary. But I think this should also be part of your consideration if this won't be your forever home.
Above is my two cents worth on buying for own stay and investment. Frankly, I am quite divided as well although I do see some upsides for this property.
Hope to hear from the rest!
The psf has dropped since launch day (now around 22XX - 23XX) and its quite close to breakeven cost (about $2100 ++) from what I hear from agents. So it seems that buying in now is safe because the prices unlikely to go any lower - if anything it would go higher nearing TOP.
Looking at CCR prices condo launch prices right now, PSF can be as high as 26XX - 30XX such as the launches in Holland V and River Valley area. Yet, CCR prices are considered fairly suppressed right now based on UA price index - so prices will only get higher once economy recovers.
As for rental, there isn't any condos with one bedders at Sixth Avenue. For that matter, there is only fifth and sixth avenue residences there which are small developments with less and older facilities so there really isn't much options if anyone is looking to stay here (whether it is 1, 2 or 3 beds). There are condos along KAP, Tan KAh Kee, Botanical Gardens and Stevens Road and a check on property guru shows that 1 bed units are not many available for rental. Rental transactions for these condos are also quite healthy which indicates demand.
If purchasing 2-3 bedrooms for own stay, then there is also RoyalGreen but it's definitely more pricey (around 26XX-27XX psf). While there is argument that those who are rich will choose freehold over leasehold, but there is always another group of aspiring owners who wish to stay in this prestigious area but are unable to afford the FH pricing (and may prefer to commute by MRT because of it being at doorstep and leads straight to CBD or One north within 15-20 min). Across the road, there is a couple of plots that has been designated as residential (the whole turf city area which is hugeee, and a small plot directly opp Fourth Avenue) and are in D11. These are unlikely to be opened for bids in the next few years so supply will be limited once RoyalGreen and Fourth Avenue is sold out. And even then, these plots won't be as near to the amenities (which I think is really good - many local eateries with decent pricing, restaurants, banks, medical and dental clinics), and not as close to the MRT.
While the above seems to be big advantages of fourth avenue, my biggest gripe is whether there is future capital appreciation. It is not very near to the Bt Timah Transformation - even the sky park that will be built is 10 mins by foot from Fourth Avenue. I don't forsee any ripple effects from the changes at Beauty World either. Even if Beauty World Centre or Bt Timah shopping centre/plaza is revamped into good size shopping centres, it is still two MRTs away. And the Grandstand is not really a good shopping mall though they offer daily shuttle service from sixth avenue bus stop. It may very well be demolished anyway since it is in the Turf City area slated for residential. But capital appreciation is likely to happen if the lands opposite are released for condo launches - it is quite certain that land prices will only be higher, which translates to high launch prices. But this would be in the long term and even then there is some uncertainty. Also, rental yield likely to be lower despite the potential demand due to higher quantum but then rental yield in CCR is typically below 3.
If you are buying for own stay, I suppose capital appreciation would be secondary. But I think this should also be part of your consideration if this won't be your forever home.
Above is my two cents worth on buying for own stay and investment. Frankly, I am quite divided as well although I do see some upsides for this property.
Hope to hear from the rest!
Both this fourth avenue residences and royalgreen (both by Allgreen) are not good choices for own stay and investment. That's why both did not sell 30% even after more than 1 year of launching. Many other good projects sold more than 30-40% in 1 day during launch.
Both projects are by Allgreen and they bidded the land during the peak of en-bloc hype in 2017/2018. So both projects are selling at on average 23xx for Fourth Avenue and 26xx for Royalgreen.
But do note that just nearby FH that are not more than 10-15 years are selling only 16xx to 17xx. So you're paying more than $1000 psf over existing FH.
That's more than 55% premium. And when tenants are paying premium for new condos over the older ones, the max they want to pay is 20%. So you're in the situation that you're paying 55% premium for it and your tenants are willing to pay just up to 20% more.
If you check the rental transactions over that area, you will see that it's pretty weak. I think for 2 main reasons - one would want to rent near the Tah Kah Kee MRT, rather than Six Avenue, as that's where it's <1Km to Nanyang and other good schools. All these schools are more than 1.5km away from Fourth Avenue and Royalgreen.
Also people who prefer that area are usually the richer ones and they will find even the 3 bedders for both projects are too small for them - 920-980 sqft.
In terms of price appreciation, you probably will see limited upside as it's once in a blue moon for en-bloc there, so due to limited transactions, the psf would remain static. That's the reason why those FH are still trading at 16xx to 17xx psf even they are now 10-15 yo already.
Both projects are by Allgreen and they bidded the land during the peak of en-bloc hype in 2017/2018. So both projects are selling at on average 23xx for Fourth Avenue and 26xx for Royalgreen.
But do note that just nearby FH that are not more than 10-15 years are selling only 16xx to 17xx. So you're paying more than $1000 psf over existing FH.
That's more than 55% premium. And when tenants are paying premium for new condos over the older ones, the max they want to pay is 20%. So you're in the situation that you're paying 55% premium for it and your tenants are willing to pay just up to 20% more.
If you check the rental transactions over that area, you will see that it's pretty weak. I think for 2 main reasons - one would want to rent near the Tah Kah Kee MRT, rather than Six Avenue, as that's where it's <1Km to Nanyang and other good schools. All these schools are more than 1.5km away from Fourth Avenue and Royalgreen.
Also people who prefer that area are usually the richer ones and they will find even the 3 bedders for both projects are too small for them - 920-980 sqft.
In terms of price appreciation, you probably will see limited upside as it's once in a blue moon for en-bloc there, so due to limited transactions, the psf would remain static. That's the reason why those FH are still trading at 16xx to 17xx psf even they are now 10-15 yo already.
Thanks for the reply spcs2020!
I think the units in Fourth Avenue and RoyalGreen only started to move these few months after they were priced lower than the original pricing at launch. Now average is around 2200-2300 which is more palatable, and probably closer to market value but I do agree it is still quite a premium over existing developments nearby considering its leasehold. About 21% over latest transactions in Fifth and Sixth Avenue Residences (closer to 1900 psf).
The lower psf for existing developments in the nearby vicinity within D10 was something that bothered me as well. I was thinking if it was because these developments were small boutique types to begin with, and therefore, the transactions are few and far between, and not enough to support healthier transactions (not sure if this is a correct interpretation though!). But then again I was just looking at developments with one bed units so I might have missed something.
As for rental transactions, able to share how you would have checked for rental demand? What I did was to look at existing one bed units available within each development near the Steven, Tan Kah Kee, Botanical Garden and even KAP, and check URA's rental transaction for these developments for last couple of years. At first glance, it appears that a substantial no. of these one bed units were rented out, with few units available on the market for rental. But I must stress it's just a very rough gauge on my part.
Hope to hear more sharing from the rest as well!
Thanks!
The number of units did not move more significantly to be frank. Previously they have this 10.10 promotion with 6 figure discount and many did not buy as well. Sales are quite bad with 4-6 units sold per month for Sep and Oct. Heard that Nov sales not that great as well.
CCR may lose some of the shine going forward as there are lesser transformation as compared to OCR and RCR. That's understandable as in the past most of the amenities and connectivities are already developed for CCR.
Govt is pushing for de-centralisation, and hence areas such as OCR and RCR become more attractive. That's also the key reason of why in the past few years, they are increasing in prices much faster than CCR.
And youngsters are more prone to buy or rent near town than Bukit Tiimah. Hence D7 like Bugis is getting very hot.
Anything more than 2300 psf will result in a high quantum. That would make it difficult to sell as the median salary of Singaporeans is $5600. Together with spouse, $5600 x 2, the quantum they could afford would be around $1.6M-$1.8M
Of course these days, developers try to play the quantum game and build smaller but with very high psf. That would not work out for buyers in the long term.
As 80% of the population stays in HDB, many of the condo resale buyers come from HDB upgraders.
But Fourth Avenue residences and Royal Green with high psf of $23xx to $27xx psf, the unit floor area would be like 4xx to 7xx sqft.
But these HDB upgraders are used to HDB of 1000 sqft. Would they want to move to 34-60% much smaller condo and consider that as an "upgrade"?
Lastly, people who want to stay there actually want the landed than condos. To many, the prestige of Bukit Timah is landed, so condos rental and resales there are quite weak.
CCR may lose some of the shine going forward as there are lesser transformation as compared to OCR and RCR. That's understandable as in the past most of the amenities and connectivities are already developed for CCR.
Govt is pushing for de-centralisation, and hence areas such as OCR and RCR become more attractive. That's also the key reason of why in the past few years, they are increasing in prices much faster than CCR.
And youngsters are more prone to buy or rent near town than Bukit Tiimah. Hence D7 like Bugis is getting very hot.
Anything more than 2300 psf will result in a high quantum. That would make it difficult to sell as the median salary of Singaporeans is $5600. Together with spouse, $5600 x 2, the quantum they could afford would be around $1.6M-$1.8M
Of course these days, developers try to play the quantum game and build smaller but with very high psf. That would not work out for buyers in the long term.
As 80% of the population stays in HDB, many of the condo resale buyers come from HDB upgraders.
But Fourth Avenue residences and Royal Green with high psf of $23xx to $27xx psf, the unit floor area would be like 4xx to 7xx sqft.
But these HDB upgraders are used to HDB of 1000 sqft. Would they want to move to 34-60% much smaller condo and consider that as an "upgrade"?
Lastly, people who want to stay there actually want the landed than condos. To many, the prestige of Bukit Timah is landed, so condos rental and resales there are quite weak.
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normoh
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I think it will be selling better nearer to the TOP date. As an investment think it will increase or decrease in line with the general economy but as a self stay it's one of the better location in the area for the price. 2br is 2br, not 1+1/2 mostly found around there. And for the quantum it's easier to swallow then the others.
Frankly speaking, I feel this 4 Ave Residences and RoyalGreen are way over priced, due to land cost highly bidded by Allgreen. There is one older condo nearby pushing for en-bloc and they are asking for 18xx psf, about 150-200 psf cheaper than RoyalGreen's land price.
Nearby condos are only 17xx psf, despite just 10-15 years old and as they are FH as well, they do not have decay of lease.
Somehow, I feel this 4 Ave would end up like KAP, also freehold and very near to MRT as well. But price dropping.
For district 10, probably the better ones are those close to District 9. This part being close to District 21 seems have price stagnant.
Come close to TOP, some may shun away from RoyalGreen, as you can see that each block are very close to each other, so kind of losing privacy.
normoh
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Think KAP was oversold by developer. And the highway beside a worry. Agree with you its proximity to D21 may also may have an effect.
Which condo nearby looking to en-block? If they do make it would make it a Landmark Vs OPB situation?
And the developer is playing the quantum game. Others can have much lower PSF but much higher unpalatable quantum for new entry.
scanner007
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Just happened to read this thread.
The take up rate is not high Click here for take up rate. TOP expected to be Dec 2022.
The developer will be hard pressed to push sale (QC coming).
1. Give more discounts
2. Higher demands in resale units due to delay in BTO and condo construction
Helps to push sale?
Stackedhomes write up looks good, but why sale never take off?
Surrounding amenities at 4/5/5. Is it over rated? 1 MRT station, few coffee shops and some malls nearby.
The take up rate is not high Click here for take up rate. TOP expected to be Dec 2022.
The developer will be hard pressed to push sale (QC coming).
1. Give more discounts
2. Higher demands in resale units due to delay in BTO and condo construction
Helps to push sale?
Stackedhomes write up looks good, but why sale never take off?
Surrounding amenities at 4/5/5. Is it over rated? 1 MRT station, few coffee shops and some malls nearby.
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snowpatrol
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I feel that the market generally thinks $2300-$2700 psf is too high for a LH condo in Bukit Timah area where existing FH condos are priced much lower. However, personally i feel the development has upside potential in the near future given the below reasons:
1) Excellent location right smack beside Sixth Avenue MRT station
2) Nested in GCB enclave
3) Proximity to reputable educational institutions
4) Medium-sized development with ample facilities
5) Upcoming Bukit Timah-Rochor Green Corridor
Unfortunately, the pandemic has worsened its take-up rate due to pessimistic economic conditions. But i still believe the potential of the condo will unveil in the near future.
1) Excellent location right smack beside Sixth Avenue MRT station
2) Nested in GCB enclave
3) Proximity to reputable educational institutions
4) Medium-sized development with ample facilities
5) Upcoming Bukit Timah-Rochor Green Corridor
Unfortunately, the pandemic has worsened its take-up rate due to pessimistic economic conditions. But i still believe the potential of the condo will unveil in the near future.
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