(GPGT)Espresso machine hoot

[Lazy_Tiger]

interesting videos.

La Spaziale made a transparent portafilter and shows us what happens when water hits the puck.


Wrong extraction

correct extraction

Cool but I think the correct extraction video also looks quite slanted and has uneven extraction!

 

[chikyblink]

Hi bro... i have coffee beans given by a friend, where can i get it grind?

or is there a low cost machine that does that?

Hand grinder ftw!

Low end
Hario slim
Papa Palheta | Merchandise | Hario Mini Mill Slim Coffee Grinder

Polex
http://www.amazon.com/Porlex-JP-30-Stainless-Coffee-Grinder/dp/B0002JZCF2



High end

OE Lido 2 Manual Coffee Grinder

OE Pharos Manual Coffee Grinder

HG one

 

[chikyblink]

Bro can I ask where did u buy Eric's thermometer? I've been interested to try it out.

Here you go bro
Digital Thermometer & Adapter for exposed E-61 Groupheads

 

[flashover]

Wah nice cuppa maker

 

[chikyblink]

Bro can I ask where did u buy Eric's thermometer? I've been interested to try it out.

bro you're using a vst basket too right? what is the size of your tamper base? I ask cuz my tamper is a regular 58mm with a convex base, and vst's baskets are a little larger at ard 58.4mm.

If I simply tamp straight down, I get channelling most of the time. If I do nutating, I seldom get channelling. I can't do much distribution since I don't overfill my basket. Most of the time I just tap down lightly to settle the grounds then tamp.

VST recommends the Pullman tampers with appropriate base size for their baskets.
Is that a good excuse for me to hoot another toy?

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

bro you're using a vst basket too right? what is the size of your tamper base? I ask cuz my tamper is a regular 58mm with a convex base, and vst's baskets are a little larger at ard 58.4mm.

If I simply tamp straight down, I get channelling most of the time. If I do nutating, I seldom get channelling. I can't do much distribution since I don't overfill my basket. Most of the time I just tap down lightly to settle the grounds then tamp.

VST recommends the Pullman tampers with appropriate base size for their baskets.
Is that a good excuse for me to hoot another toy?

Yep using 18 and 22grms. I use a 58 mm espro and I tamp centre and finish with a NSEW. I tried the WDT( with a needle in a cork) and shots seems more consistent but honestly hard to tell cuz my usuall technique ok simply tapping the basket to settle the grounds seem ok too. I guess best judge of the espresso is in the taste. Have had some shots that look horrendous on the bottomless portafiler but is actually quite good.


Been trying some lunar ny blend from nylon. Too acidic for me. Orioles recent batch of raven is fantastic.

 

[calbay]

I think there's an excess obsession on many overstated things probably read from the open internet from people with various interest.
Just like how people think Kopi Luwak is better, how a very big grinder is better for home, etc.

Myth #1

There's no need to distribute the coffee at all unless you are going too excessive in your dosing, which is not necessary.
Go straight tamp and don't have to tamp real hard but make sure it's tamped level.
Italian standard: 6.5/7 grammes, 13/14 grammes(dbl). 85 to 90 degrees

Anything higher, is American inspired just like their coffee joints.

Don't waste your time, get your dirty fingers into your coffee.
It's an act to make the barista seems indispensable.

Making espresso should be easy and quick.





Myth #2

Grinder is the most important.

Grinder / Machine / Freshness of beans are as important for making espressos.

For home, you don't need a big grinder with large burrs.
Those large burrs are good for heat dissipation and is more necessary if you are doing a lot and rapidly.

Clumping, coffee retentions are also dependent on the origin of beans, roasting, roasting techniques, and the humidity level. You can't blame the grinder for every problem, it doesn't do magic.

When you know how to tamp levelly, it solves the problem.
If you can't tamp and it's not even, even if there's totally no clumping, it won't help.

Infact it's debatable whether clumping is good or bad. Clumping lessens the amount of air locked between coffee powder particles, shielding the internal, just like how crema shelds the espresso.

On the contrary, large hopper brings more air sitting with your coffee with adverse effect.
And it's better that the hopper is smaller, and more narrow so weight can be centred to pass out a consistent dosing.

You don't really need a stepless either. That tiny difference won't make a significant difference.

Spend the extra money on a more easy to use and more consistent ODG ( On demand grinder)

Don't forget, if your machine is good, consistent and reliable.
And you find your coffee wasn't done well, before you blame the grinder.
You can actually fine tune the machine with a lower/higher pressure or slightly increase/decrease dosage of coffee.




Before buying any machines, the usability, is also very important. That brings about efficiency.

Efficiency is a criteria for baristas.
Target yourself to get your coffee done within a shortest period of time.

 

[chikyblink]

Calbay, I know you're a barista. As a barista working in a cafe, i understand you'll need to do everything as fast and efficient as possible.
But home baristas are totally different. Why do you think we need to spend thousands on machines, painstakingly perform our ritual for coffee every morning when we could've do it with a press of a button?
Its because we have a passion for it, its like a hobby to us, a form of art if you will. For the professionals, its a job. See the difference?
If you've ever surf at homebarista.com or coffeegeek.com, you'll know what I'm talking about, thousands crazier than me.

Fyi, blind tests have been done many times between a small Burr and a large Burr grinder. There is a difference in the cup.

 

[calbay]

Hi,

We are trained to give perfect shots fast, consistently, not just the speed and we can do it because we know how things work. We know where to go and what to miss.

It's because we at gourmet cafes(Particularly in Aussie and Italian chains) had done extensive testing and had tried difference between different combination to tell you what's the things home baristas are doing wrong.

We use same blend fresh coffee, cupping and do blind tests on fair testing. Our head barista was a head coffee specialist from Ily, and it's certainly better, fairer than reading reviews from home users who we can't confirm if they test on fair testing as they won't have a lot of equipment to play with or played with, nor may not have fresh beans to start.

I did not mention that it's not right to spend thousands on equipment because a decent machine and a sufficient grinder will certainly set one back above 2K.
But spend wisely, have a good reason to spend than find a reason to justify what was spent.

Some are just going entirely beyond the science of coffee and base on just perceptions and suspected placebo effects. Or thinking the more expensive, the more branded is better.

If you read coffeegeeks, and home-barista alot, you should notice that alot of those people making comments with weight are people who retail equipment, or affiliates, with each their own perception and/or agenda. Baristas from famous joints visit there too and are mostly quiet about it.

Infact i went to Chris coffee and rang up bellabarista before, as well visited other famous joints, like intelligentasia, etc.
You won't want to hear what's the insider comments they leaked to me when they know i am trained in coffee.

The bigger burr grinder is only good for commercial scenarios and has very little advantages can be seen for a home user.

I like to repeat, unless you are drinking a lot of coffee for your family, you should be buying just less than 5 days of coffee which should normally be below 1/4 KG.
So before one recommend which grinder to buy, the first thing you should ask first, is their needs and consumption level, etc. Not blindly recommending.

If you are using a huge hopper, unless you purchase a mini hopper which is available to some manufacturers, you just created another problem for yourself with oxidation problem having 1/4KG of beans in a 1KG capacity hopper. I believe the end result of the taste is more important than how it grinds, no?

And having problem getting the 1/4KG beans to centre into the grinding input because there's not enough weight to push the beans to feed.
Unless you just want to look at the good things the good specs can bring and ignore the other fundamental problems it come with for home usage, yes anything is better.

A lack of knowledge of how freshness plays a big part is a reason i see why people don't apprehend and overlook more important things in the picture.

About the serious obsession of NSEW,Stockfleth's or Weiser's distribution technique, listen to this guy who exactly says the point.

It doesn't give any additional difference in taste tests and that's the thing, alot of the "extras" mentioned over the internet including here, don't bring about overall better taste.
It's all base on reading from another who read from another and finally one guy who happens to be an advertiser/retailer/supplier/etc.

So are many things mentioned here, what you do or bought extra, don't really make your coffee one notch better.

If one really want to learn about coffee, first thing one should upgrade is one's knowledge on coffee. Else we will be another "Americano"

 

[IntelFlash]

Hi,

We are trained to give perfect shots fast, consistently, not just the speed and we can do it because we know how things work. We know where to go and what to miss.

It's because we at gourmet cafes(Particularly in Aussie and Italian chains) had done extensive testing and had tried difference between different combination to tell you what's the things home baristas are doing wrong.

We use same blend fresh coffee, cupping and do blind tests on fair testing. Our head barista was a head coffee specialist from Ily, and it's certainly better, fairer than reading reviews from home users who we can't confirm if they test on fair testing as they won't have a lot of equipment to play with or played with, nor may not have fresh beans to start.

I did not mention that it's not right to spend thousands on equipment because a decent machine and a sufficient grinder will certainly set one back above 2K.
But spend wisely, have a good reason to spend than find a reason to justify what was spent.

Some are just going entirely beyond the science of coffee and base on just perceptions and suspected placebo effects. Or thinking the more expensive, the more branded is better.

If you read coffeegeeks, and home-barista alot, you should notice that alot of those people making comments with weight are people who retail equipment, or affiliates, with each their own perception and/or agenda. Baristas from famous joints visit there too and are mostly quiet about it.

Infact i went to Chris coffee and rang up bellabarista before, as well visited other famous joints, like intelligentasia, etc.
You won't want to hear what's the insider comments they leaked to me when they know i am trained in coffee.

The bigger burr grinder is only good for commercial scenarios and has very little advantages can be seen for a home user.

I like to repeat, unless you are drinking a lot of coffee for your family, you should be buying just less than 5 days of coffee which should normally be below 1/4 KG.
So before one recommend which grinder to buy, the first thing you should ask first, is their needs and consumption level, etc. Not blindly recommending.

If you are using a huge hopper, unless you purchase a mini hopper which is available to some manufacturers, you just created another problem for yourself with oxidation problem having 1/4KG of beans in a 1KG capacity hopper. I believe the end result of the taste is more important than how it grinds, no?

And having problem getting the 1/4KG beans to centre into the grinding input because there's not enough weight to push the beans to feed.
Unless you just want to look at the good things the good specs can bring and ignore the other fundamental problems it come with for home usage, yes anything is better.

A lack of knowledge of how freshness plays a big part is a reason i see why people don't apprehend and overlook more important things in the picture.

About the serious obsession of NSEW,Stockfleth's or Weiser's distribution technique, listen to this guy who exactly says the point.

It doesn't give any additional difference in taste tests and that's the thing, alot of the "extras" mentioned over the internet including here, don't bring about overall better taste.
It's all base on reading from another who read from another and finally one guy who happens to be an advertiser/retailer/supplier/etc.

So are many things mentioned here, what you do or bought extra, don't really make your coffee one notch better.

If one really want to learn about coffee, first thing one should upgrade is one's knowledge on coffee. Else we will be another "Americano"

Check PM, can advise me the model can buy?

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

Hi,

We are trained to give perfect shots fast, consistently, not just the speed and we can do it because we know how things work. We know where to go and what to miss.

It's because we at gourmet cafes(Particularly in Aussie and Italian chains) had done extensive testing and had tried difference between different combination to tell you what's the things home baristas are doing wrong.

We use same blend fresh coffee, cupping and do blind tests on fair testing. Our head barista was a head coffee specialist from Ily, and it's certainly better, fairer than reading reviews from home users who we can't confirm if they test on fair testing as they won't have a lot of equipment to play with or played with, nor may not have fresh beans to start.

I did not mention that it's not right to spend thousands on equipment because a decent machine and a sufficient grinder will certainly set one back above 2K.
But spend wisely, have a good reason to spend than find a reason to justify what was spent.

Some are just going entirely beyond the science of coffee and base on just perceptions and suspected placebo effects. Or thinking the more expensive, the more branded is better.

If you read coffeegeeks, and home-barista alot, you should notice that alot of those people making comments with weight are people who retail equipment, or affiliates, with each their own perception and/or agenda. Baristas from famous joints visit there too and are mostly quiet about it.

Infact i went to Chris coffee and rang up bellabarista before, as well visited other famous joints, like intelligentasia, etc.
You won't want to hear what's the insider comments they leaked to me when they know i am trained in coffee.

The bigger burr grinder is only good for commercial scenarios and has very little advantages can be seen for a home user.

I like to repeat, unless you are drinking a lot of coffee for your family, you should be buying just less than 5 days of coffee which should normally be below 1/4 KG.
So before one recommend which grinder to buy, the first thing you should ask first, is their needs and consumption level, etc. Not blindly recommending.

If you are using a huge hopper, unless you purchase a mini hopper which is available to some manufacturers, you just created another problem for yourself with oxidation problem having 1/4KG of beans in a 1KG capacity hopper. I believe the end result of the taste is more important than how it grinds, no?

And having problem getting the 1/4KG beans to centre into the grinding input because there's not enough weight to push the beans to feed.
Unless you just want to look at the good things the good specs can bring and ignore the other fundamental problems it come with for home usage, yes anything is better.

A lack of knowledge of how freshness plays a big part is a reason i see why people don't apprehend and overlook more important things in the picture.

About the serious obsession of NSEW,Stockfleth's or Weiser's distribution technique, listen to this guy who exactly says the point.


It doesn't give any additional difference in taste tests and that's the thing, alot of the "extras" mentioned over the internet including here, don't bring about overall better taste.
It's all base on reading from another who read from another and finally one guy who happens to be an advertiser/retailer/supplier/etc.

So are many things mentioned here, what you do or bought extra, don't really make your coffee one notch better.

If one really want to learn about coffee, first thing one should upgrade is one's knowledge on coffee. Else we will be another "Americano"

agreed that not all purchases make the coffee better. However i do think that some instruments do help newbies to obtain consistency, bottomless portafilter, espro calibrated tamper, thermometers etc esp for unforgiving machines.

Contrary to your video, I find a light tamp is does not always work. Works ok with my rancilio but not with my e61. Why? My guess is headspace. Light tamps on my e61 always leads to gushers.

Agree with you on WDT. I have just made a video comparing the 2. not much difference in extraction and taste. 1st one is oilier cos its a bit more dosed. But hard to conclude unless I do an experiment with a large sample size. Will post video when I have enough PC.

NSEW seems more important. I did many taste tests. Higher chance of uneven extraction. Maybe Ill try to make a video.

I am aware that aussie barista culture that is quite dismissive of certain techniques. Maybe its fluff but fun to try and experiment nonetheless for the hobbyist. Australians and Italians aren't the only ones who do a lot of testing too u know. Illy? Come on.. while they do have a pretty decent education prg most of their budget is probably dedicated towards marketing rather actual coffee research. Anyway most coffee science is not really good science. I have yet to come across a double blind coffee experiment with a suitable sample sizes nor does anyone bother to publish their findings to be peer reviewed in decent journals except for caffeine studies!

Coffee brewing is much of an art as it is a science. (and a great fun hobby!).

Don't mean to diss you but Commercial baristas don't taste every shot they make. Home baristas do, almost. Ultimately their personal satisfaction is what that counts.

 

[calbay]

Actually you are right in one thing.
That is we don't test our own coffee a lot after it's set because we don't have to and it's consistent. It should be that way. You won't want to eat pizza with varying amount of toppings or flavours.

We taste only after roasting, on the first few cups of a bag, and that's all. We are more concern of clarity which is more difficult to catch and we do it through techniques fiddling the machine to control the flow and temperature.

We do have taste tests and cuppings, and to be honest, it's not easy to tell the difference between a type of note from another.


Many baristas and users can't even tell the difference between a medium and a dark roast, so don't mention a 0.5% improvement.

For cafes or even homes, the consistency should be in place.
What you made, your mom makes, another barista makes, should taste about the same.

As for distribution, you won't have a problem if you are dosing just sufficiently.
The Americans even use triple baskets and fill heaps of powder for a single extraction. They will need to distribute because they are placing crazy amount of powder the portafilter can't even handle which is so wasteful and unnecessary. They have to use a higher temperature to compensate which we don't really agree on.

I was first trained in USA when i was skooling, then shifted to Aussie where i studied.
I was lucky to be a in a fine Italian gourmet cafe and had seen clearly the difference in the 3 culture of making.

There is good studies of coffee science by Nestle(Swiss), Illy(IT) and Lavazza(IT). The research faculty in Switzerland by Nestle alone, is worth billions. You can visit them on request and you will be amazed what they can do there and are they using. They are not just "nescafe". A lot of those barista's handbook's theories, came from the research of these big 3s.
There's so much misconception in the market, just that average people don't read that and stick to online reviews which are so illogical at times.

There's no shame in using a thermometer, but to buy a tank grinder to run on the road, is a little hilarious.

 

[calbay]

&BTW the amount of firm tamping of over 25KG is nothing to the amount of over 250KG of pressure induced during the extraction.

It's a big misconception that hard tamp brings more benefits.

Infact when you tamp hard, there's a higher chance that the tamping is not level.

During extraction, the hot water must first fill up the empty spaces in the portafilter before water pressure can be perforated through the grounds

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

Actually you are right in one thing.
That is we don't test our own coffee a lot after it's set because we don't have to and it's consistent. It should be that way. You won't want to eat pizza with varying amount of toppings or flavours.

We taste only after roasting, on the first few cups of a bag, and that's all. We are more concern of clarity which is more difficult to catch and we do it through techniques fiddling the machine to control the flow and temperature.

We do have taste tests and cuppings, and to be honest, it's not easy to tell the difference between a type of note from another.


Many baristas and users can't even tell the difference between a medium and a dark roast, so don't mention a 0.5% improvement.

For cafes or even homes, the consistency should be in place.
What you made, your mom makes, another barista makes, should taste about the same.

As for distribution, you won't have a problem if you are dosing just sufficiently.
The Americans even use triple baskets and fill heaps of powder for a single extraction. They will need to distribute because they are placing crazy amount of powder the portafilter can't even handle which is so wasteful and unnecessary. They have to use a higher temperature to compensate which we don't really agree on.

I was first trained in USA when i was skooling, then shifted to Aussie where i studied.
I was lucky to be a in a fine Italian gourmet cafe and had seen clearly the difference in the 3 culture of making.

There is good studies of coffee science by Nestle(Swiss), Illy(IT) and Lavazza(IT). The research faculty in Switzerland by Nestle alone, is worth billions. You can visit them on request and you will be amazed what they can do there and are they using. They are not just "nescafe". A lot of those barista's handbook's theories, came from the research of these big 3s.
There's so much misconception in the market, just that average people don't read that and stick to online reviews which are so illogical at times.

There's no shame in using a thermometer, but to buy a tank grinder to run on the road, is a little hilarious.

Thanks for sharing. Agree with you on the craze for large grinders. The difference in cost compared to a good home grinder would probably cost a year's worth of coffee beans and no diff in quality. A good set of burrs, quality motor and tight tolerances in burr assembly would be more than enough. My old rocky still works fine.

Interesting theory bout the dosing amt vs distribution. I'll try it out.

TBH most of the time I can't really detect the tasting notes pasted on the packet of coffee that I buy Prefer to dial in variables to get a good balance of bitterness, sweetness, savoriness and mouthfeel rather than try to capture individual notes. Similar to what i learnt with whiskey... everyone interprets scents differently, no point trying to smell what they other fella picked up.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

&BTW the amount of firm tamping of over 25KG is nothing to the amount of over 250KG of pressure induced during the extraction.

It's a big misconception that hard tamp brings more benefits.

Infact when you tamp hard, there's a higher chance that the tamping is not level.

During extraction, the hot water must first fill up the empty spaces in the portafilter before water pressure can be perforated through the grounds

I remember the la marzocco swift tamping with only 8 lbs of force. may be Worth a try experiment again with a light tamp....

 

[chikyblink]

Calbay, your posts are always so informative and interesting to read. A complete opposite of what I've been reading on other websites.

On the motorized big grinders for home use, I don't know if its directed to me but I wanna clear some things up. I agree with you they're ridiculous for home use. They retain so much grounds you'll be going through bags of coffee fast. That's why I've now taken interest in manual grinders. If you only make 1 or 2 cups a day like me, then a hand grinder is perfect I think. The ability to single dose means you can switch coffee easily. And not to mention their greatest strength is zero retention of grounds, no coffee is wasted! And to minimise the number of turns needed to grind you'll need big burrs. That's what I meant. Big burrs for manual, not motorized.

As for distribution, I think it really depends on the grinder. Most cafes using top-of-the-line grinders, the grounds just fall nicely into your portafilter, of cuz there's no need to mess with it any further. Have you ever use a grinder which spits out grounds more towards 1 side?

For the dose and light tamp, thanks for the tips. I'll give 14gm and light tamping style a try and see how it goes.

 

[The_King]

one thing that is right for me is the coffee bean.

sure there a different in the type of coffee bean i been buying locally, but the only coffee bean i go for is the one that is freshly roasted coffee.

Also i do a very very light tamp. the only reason i temp to make the coffee even and flat. i have never temp hard before, but when i temp very very lightly i can feel if the coffee in the porta is even of not. not sure about hard temp as i never try it.

 

[The_King]

chikyblink just get a phraos, cheap, consistent grind result and it can last.

Also i have not been doing must experiment even since the espresso i am making is very consistent (as in it always taste the same to me which is non bitter and sour to me)

i guess i leave it that way.i get what i wanted from the lever, a espresso that i drink dun taste sour or bitter to me...

now i am a bit greedy. i love espresso and latte. so i make a espresso first spend 1 min to enjoy it then make 2nd shot for latte....

what about you?

 

[derazor]

So now coffee industry has the same treatment as headfi and hifi lol. All are hearsay hearsay haha.

So any websites that are more practical?

 

[standarture]

Can please tell those atas cafes to stop serving sour espressos?