learning japanese

[dimitri_can]

Check the answer with my fellow Japanese friend.
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"its normal as meaning of "You are good only at japanese"
"hai.so he will not be happy"

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Looking forward to my new job,my new company called me today and told me to be mentally prepared. They said will send me to japan for 2 weeks training...
After that, support Japanese users...

 

[Niaoson]

think ur japanese friend is wrong. it has no meaning of being good only at japanese desu yo

 

[Ah_keong]

日本語けっこう上手じゃない。頑張ってね。きっとできるから

Arigato!

My aim is JLPT 1 and BJT...

 

[Ah_keong]

Go for JLPT 2

I see, i thought they introducing N5 to N1 to replace the JLPT 4 to JLPT 1 in year 2010...

Thanks!

 

[terraj]

think ur japanese friend is wrong. it has no meaning of being good only at japanese desu yo

Actually there was an interesting article insight within the book I was mentioning about in the Amazon link. See pg 42. For the benefit of everyone I've typed it out here:

"I and a few other American scholars were at a party and one of us tried to complement our Japanese host by saying, 今晩は、美味しいものが沢山ありますね. By this he intended to say, "What a lot of tasty dishes you're serving us tonight." The host laughed and remarked, "You mean I'm usually stingy on other nights?" By putting wa after "tonight", my colleage had in effect said, "Tonight, fora change, you're sering us a lot of tasty dishes. Although our host seemed to take this in good humour, he unobtrusively committed seppuku later as the rest of us were drinking cognac.

After reading this, I don't think Dimitri's friend is wrong.

There was another simple example in the book (pg 36):
お金がある。
お金はある。
The first is a statement that I have money.
The second is a statement, that implies, I have money, but...　お金はあるが…

In any case, the wa/ga problem isn't something that's new, it confuses even native speakers, not in usage perhaps, but when they try to explain it. It's like how the book describes a native English speaker being able to (mostly, though not always) tell the difference between "The" and "A" intuitively, but being unable to explain it.

Currently in Sydney where I am, there's lots of Chinese students there and they often ask me to explain certain things about English grammar which I know intuitively yet cannot explain why. I leave it to the linguists to do their job

Anyways, I'm definitely ordering this book from Amazon when I come back to Singapore. It's really well written with difficult concepts explained seemingly so effortlessly.

 

[terraj]

Please don't take it personally; no one is insulting anyone. As it is I have no way of validating whether I'm right or wrong, being a non-native speaker, and having neither Japanese teachers nor friends with me at the moment. I can only try to understand more about the language by reading on it.

The problem with these two particles is that they're typically not explained properly in Japanese classes, so even people with years of learning Japanese may not be able to use it perfectly. Furthermore, Japanese teachers might know that we use it wrongly but be too polite to correct them, just like how an English speaker might not correct a non-native speaker on his/her use of, for example, "I am going market", when he/she actually meant "I am going to the market".

BTW, I'm female (~kun isn't necessarily wrong, it's just a bit weird in this context and I might be be toshiue )

lol, terraj-kun does that mean i'm wrong all these years ?

maa~ from my usage in compositions and letter writing practices, i'm not marked wrong for this, even in my senior levels. this was what i'm taught and like i said, i'm not getting marked for this. so i feel its really okay. but if anyone who feels that this is so damn wrong, you are welcome to correct me. i'm will delete off that post.

and i didn't say dimitri-san is wrong. he is correct in using "ga" but the meaning changes. that's all i'm saying. i didn't type those long stuff and explanation for some crack-pot ccn stories to insult people.

anyway, thanks for the links. very beneficial to readers of thread. this sure clears up the problem now.

 

[ender51244]

so do you need me to address you as Terraj さま？

compositions and letter writing practices need to be marked. in this case, i don't think they will let you off if you did something grammartically wrong. if teachers are still too polite to correct us on this, JCS students may all sue JCS teachers for all the wrong Japanese education they imparted.


-kun isn't wrong, as this is commonly used in offices, regardless you are male or female. defintely usable and more office-like than -chan.. but if you require me to address you as さま, I can do that too. you can get all the respect in the naming conventions you want.

ps: even for the word さま, you get to choose between "樣", "様" and "檨". Which one do you want?

 

[dimitri_can]

えっと。。。enderさん、おちついてね。。

 

[terraj]

Geez, why are you getting so uptight for?

And I didn't say you were wrong, I just didn't think it was appropriate because as you said, it's used in offices, BUT you're not my colleague.

In any case, why can't you take any alternative opinions (even if it might be wrong) as something to learn from or question? The most important thing about learning is humility isn't it? Sure I might not have your experience in letter writting but that doesn't mean I cannot voice my opinion.

Anyway I seem to have hit a sore point on you so I'm just not going to fight over semantics anymore.

so do you need me to address you as Terraj さま？

compositions and letter writing practices need to be marked. in this case, i don't think they will let you off if you did something grammartically wrong. if teachers are still too polite to correct us on this, JCS students may all sue JCS teachers for all the wrong Japanese education they imparted.


-kun isn't wrong, as this is commonly used in offices, regardless you are male or female. defintely usable and more office-like than -chan.. but if you require me to address you as さま, I can do that too. you can get all the respect in the naming conventions you want.

ps: even for the word さま, you get to choose between "樣", "様" and "檨". Which one do you want?

 

[dimitri_can]

N2=JLPT 2.

 

[ender51244]

Geez, why are you getting so uptight for?

And I didn't say you were wrong, I just didn't think it was appropriate because as you said, it's used in offices, BUT you're not my colleague.

In any case, why can't you take any alternative opinions (even if it might be wrong) as something to learn from or question? The most important thing about learning is humility isn't it? Sure I might not have your experience in letter writting but that doesn't mean I cannot voice my opinion.

Anyway I seem to have hit a sore point on you so I'm just not going to fight over semantics anymore.

from your tone, you are just lashing out at me and you started being offensive first. you may or may not notice it but in doing so it is one form of politics - office politics. toshiue or toshi****a, we can know from this very well.
-kun is commonly used in offices and also in other situations. i don't necessary imply that you have to be my colleague for the "-kun" to be used but if you read meanings the same way i did, why accuse me ?

humility - i do learn from others, but that depends on situations. you wanted respect without giving people any. what form of humility or respect do i need to learn from you ? and i did say the links you gave are beneficial, i didn't say anything bad about it. if you wanted to say your links are really good and i'm so damn wrong, i will delete off that post. that makes everyone happy right ? only i will feel bad about it because i spend time and effort in it and it got condemned. i feel weird sometimes; why help strangers when no one is even appreciative?

and you may also want to consider your usage of internet linguistics before you start screaming at someone with your caps lock keys. its kinda rude towards me, unless you are saying that i don't deserve any respect from you, then very well, you can use all the caps lock you want in your post.

えっと。。。enderさん、おちついてね。。

落着かないわ。なんで自分がいじめられなければいけないの？

 

[dimitri_can]

enderさん、本当に感謝しますよ。。。
私は日本人ではありません。。。
唯学習者です。。
たから、お互いは必要ですよ。
冷静してください。。。
ここまでいいですか。。。

もし両方は”喧嘩”したら、私は本当に気持ちが悪くなります。。。私のせいで、こんな事が起こしました。。。
多分ネット達ですね。。。一緒に頑張ろうよ。。。

terrajさん、enderさんは「terraj君」と書いて、ただ親切ですよ。。。彼はterrajさんが女性か男性かわからないかもしれませんし。
その上、私も「年上」と書かれて、「じゃ、terrajさんは目上の人みたいに尊敬語を使うのが必要なの」と思っています。。。

「BTW, I'm female (~kun isn't necessarily wrong, it's just a bit weird in this context and I might be be toshiue )」

 

[terraj]

Well then, why did you write this sentence, "i didn't type those long stuff and explanation for some crack-pot con stories to insult people" in the first place if you didn't feel offended? It's as though the links I put up were there to insult you personally?

Perhaps I misconstrued your statements but I did feel some passive aggressiveness with the sudden use of "~kun" and "but if anyone who feels that this is so damn wrong, you are welcome to correct me. i'm will delete off that post."

If there was a communication breakdown somewhere, I apologise.

from your tone, you are just lashing out at me and you started being offensive first. you may or may not notice it but in doing so it is one form of politics - office politics. toshiue or toshi****a, we can know from this very well.
-kun is commonly used in offices and also in other situations. i don't necessary imply that you have to be my colleague for the "-kun" to be used but if you read meanings the same way i did, why accuse me ?

humility - i do learn from others, but that depends on situations. you wanted respect without giving people any. what form of humility or respect do i need to learn from you ? and i did say the links you gave are beneficial, i didn't say anything bad about it. if you wanted to say your links are really good and i'm so damn wrong, i will delete off that post. that makes everyone happy right ? only i will feel bad about it because i spend time and effort in it and it got condemned. i feel weird sometimes; why help strangers when no one is even appreciative?

and you may also want to consider your usage of internet linguistics before you start screaming at someone with your caps lock keys. its kinda rude towards me, unless you are saying that i don't deserve any respect from you, then very well, you can use all the caps lock you want in your post.


落着かないわ。なんで自分がいじめられなければいかないの？

 

[dimitri_can]

今、ボランテァとして初級日本語を教えていますし、こんな事が分からなくて、本当に恥ずかしいです。。。でも、教えるの成果は生徒達がjlpt４に合格して、私に「先生、誠にありがとうございます」と言って、その笑顔があります。。。

私の夢は日本へ行って、日本語教師試験に合格して、貧しい人に教えます。。

ここは私達の教室かもしれません。ですから、一緒にポイントを交換したほうがいいと思います。

 

[terraj]

Dimitri, the use of ~kun without office politics meaning is, as you would definitely know, similar to how you would call someone a "dude" in forum, and I was merely clarifying that I wasn't a guy.

In office, to call a female ~kun is usually only used when the female is a junior, and this isn't used outside office contexts, and would be bossy and disrespectful. So I had assumed that ender was calling me kun because he/she thought I was a guy thus the correction... although based on his/her post, I couldn't be sure if it was an insult or not.

もし両方は”喧嘩”したら、私は本当に気持ちが悪くなります。。。私のせいで、こんな事が起こしました。。。
多分ネット達ですね。。。一緒に頑張ろうよ。。。

terrajさん、enderさんは「terraj君」と書いて、ただ親切ですよ。。。彼はterrajさんが女性か男性かわからないかもしれませんし。
その上、私も「年上」と書かれて、「じゃ、terrajさんは目上の人みたいに尊敬語を使うのが必要なの」と思っています。。。

「BTW, I'm female (~kun isn't necessarily wrong, it's just a bit weird in this context and I might be be toshiue )」

 

[ender51244]

terraj さま,
it wasn't an insult. just to make super clear to you. -kun is also used in school dramas, which probably gave the false impression that it could be used in a more caual conversation form. I though you were in the 20s so its more like between friends, however if you are toshiue, we will give you all the due respect. if you don't like it, i will go back and edit on the post until you are satisfied ?

dimitri-san,
君が悪くない。なんかすみませんな、君に巻き込まれたようなんです。

 

[terraj]

Another of your passive aggressive comments. You're not worth my time talking to anymore.

terraj さま,
it wasn't an insult. just to make super clear to you. -kun is also used in school dramas, which probably gave the false impression that it could be used in a more caual conversation form. I though you were in the 20s so its more like between friends, however if you are toshiue, we will give you all the due respect. if you don't like it, i will go back and edit on the post until you are satisfied ?

dimitri-san,
君が悪くない。なんかすみませんな、君に巻き込まれたようなんです。

 

[ender51244]

its not like you didn't use it. don't talk if you don't want to. no one's forcing you.

 

[Ah_keong]

ok relax every1... we are all japanese language lovers...

relax...

おちついて

 

[TestTube]

oh no,

lets not argue over this..

i still stand by my statement about the ~san ha jouzu desu ne, nihongo ha..

don't want to discuss why i think so, don't want to lead to another argument.

i think lets keep all the honorifics to a neutral, quite a sensitive topic