Need NAS Recommendation

[davidktw]

For home users, Wake-up on LAN is a very useful feature as there is no need to keep the NAS running 24/7.

Another point about DIY is the software you are going to use. I bought a WDAnywhere and it came with a 5 licence memeo mirroring software which is superb. Furthermore you can use the software not just to mirror to the WD drive but to anywhere in the network, including your DIY NAS.

Another issue with DIY NAS using old PCs is that the quality of motherboards seems to be dropping... i've been experiencing regular motherboard failure where the motherboard is more than 5 years old... -> all the more reason not to leave your DIY NAS running 24/7 - keep on standby with WOL.

Running something 24by7 don't necessarily make it the biggest factor in an electronic failing. Do you know when is a light bulb most vulnerable and highest chance of burning?

I'm curious what are we trying to protect here ? Data or Hardware ? We all knows nothing last forever, but getting this NAS biggest factor is protection of data, not the hardware as the highest priority.

WIth emergence of larger and larger hard disk, I find consumer's risk of the data higher and higher. Furthermore consumers are more reliant on technology and have a lot more digital assets than it existed 10 years ago. It make more sense that consumer should move up the chain using the practices of how enterprise manage data reliability.

I do have a simple question here. Can anyone be certain because the data you have written to the NAS since 5 years ago and hardly retrieved is still there ? How can you be sure ? Does RAID 1/5/6 ensure that the file you have wrote there 5 years ago is still intact ?

Suppose it's not intact, how can you know and when will you know ? It is not uncommon for one to not touch some information for more than 5 years and yet it is considered important. Who can share how they make this assurance here, or is it that all take it to chance that it will be alright sitting in the magnetic surface, always there waiting for you to retrieve it ?

I'm interested to know actually how most people deal with this issue ? Knowing the average rate of a harddisk failure, I don't think it is paranoia to think about such issues.

 

[Asure7]

For me, I have CRC checksum for most of my files using RapidCRC.
Whenever I upgrade my hdd used for backup (usually 1-2 yrs), I prefer to manually copy over all the files over to the new hdd. Then I compare number of files and total file size (although I can't explain why I don't like to use imaging software that can do that same thing... i guess its the control).
Nonetheless, the most important part was then to verify the CRC checksum of the files.

But of course, if the file was already corrupted in the first place... oh well
I do admit this is still not good enough. So what if I know the file is corrupted ? There must be a way to retrieve last good copy. Eg backup of a backup

I remember during the times when people use CD-Rs for backup. I encountered times when there were missing files on the CD-R, probably because the optical drive was not fully compatible with the media. Some files intact, some files were missing. I wonder if such situation will happen for hdd though....
With the huge number of files, I won't be able to actually know in the back of my mind whether a file is missing or not.

 

[davidktw]

For me, I have CRC checksum for most of my files using RapidCRC.
Whenever I upgrade my hdd used for backup (usually 1-2 yrs), I prefer to manually copy over all the files over to the new hdd. Then I compare number of files and total file size (although I can't explain why I don't like to use imaging software that can do that same thing... i guess its the control).
Nonetheless, the most important part was then to verify the CRC checksum of the files.

But of course, if the file was already corrupted in the first place... oh well
I do admit this is still not good enough. So what if I know the file is corrupted ? There must be a way to retrieve last good copy. Eg backup of a backup

I remember during the times when people use CD-Rs for backup. I encountered times when there were missing files on the CD-R, probably because the optical drive was not able to fully compatible. Some files intact, some files were missing. I wonder if such situation will happen for hdd though....
With the huge number of files, I won't be able to actually know in the back of my mind whether a file is missing or not.

You only do a CRC check once a year. So between the year, especially for an harddisk that is nearing it's lifespan, how do you know the data are still intact. It would be likely corrupted before you even know, after 1 year. Right ? CRC is too computing intensive in my opinion to apply over the whole hard disk. Furthermore, it means you need to have a pretty good system to run a NAS, if not, it means you can't run frequently and also require an external system to do so. Am I right ?

Yes, CD-R is never a good backup medium. The ideal that it works is based on the fact that your medium is of good quality, but people normally buy those cheapskate CD-R that doesn't give you any confidence at all.

I'm interested to know who is so diligent to often go check your harddisk whether it's in working condition and the data are intact ? Is this an enterprising requirement or is it the baseline of a consumer assumption.

When you buy a solution that promises reliable data storage, deep inside you, are you ready for data lost ? That's the question I'm asking here for all to have some thoughts about.

 

[Asure7]

Yes, ideally I should be checking frequently although I don't. Laziness on my part. Each time the crc check can take 8 hrs for my amount of data... So I can probably leave it running while I go to sleep.

Hardware-wise I'm using raid1-DAS for the backup.
Alternatively, maybe have multiple copies of backup ?

 

[davidktw]

Yes, ideally I should be checking frequently although I don't. Laziness on my part. Each time the crc check can take 8 hrs for my amount of data... So I can probably leave it running while I go to sleep.

Hardware-wise I'm using raid1-DAS.

Lazy, can I blame you ? Of course not, you are not a drone. Why should I expect you to work like one right ?

So you see where the problem is with manual jobs ? It's not reliable and it's not consistent. If you can't ensure reliability and consistency with your routine, how can you ensure your data are intact ? If you are slack in these operations, then why use CRC to tell yourself that your data are intact when you can't be sure it wouldn't lost the next moment ? Get my point ?

Somethings have to be done right, if not, you are just trying to make yourself feel better. Feeling better doesn't save your data

If you are using a linux based software raid, why not try this ?

echo check > /sys/block/md?/md/sync_action

This will perform the actual read on the disk and any read issue will be reported as a failure in the SMART. If you have the means to put into the cron, schedule it to run biweekly or monthly depending on how paranoid you are. The idea is detect failure as soon as possible.

Backup helps in versioning errors, meaning if you accidentally overwritten or deleted a copy of data, you still have it before the next backup cycle starts. In Synology, we can create a few versions of backup on the same file. On DIY NAS solution, it can be done too using rsync or duplicity. You can even have incremental tar backups depending on how you do it. It's more flexible.

 

[Asure7]

Improved my backup strategy a little.
I use a laptop mainly, so I can't really RAID it.

1. Connect External Hdd to laptop (NAS may be preferred for some).

2. Using Acronis True Image's "realtime back up", files are archived to the ext-hdd every 5 minutes, with version control.

Thus, I always have at least 2 copies of the same file at 2 different locations, less the 5 min interval. If file is somehow corrupted, I will be able to restore an earlier copy of the file too.

But as pointed out, I will still have to manually verify that the back up is actually still working and not corrupted. (Acronis has a tool to verify, but I think i will still have to periodically run that tool manually).

3. As the hdd run out of space, I periodically transfer the files to my Raid1-DAS (the copy in the hdd is at this point deleted), then keep the DAS in my cupboard.
Thus, the archived file is protected from hardware failure.
However, the problem lies in "version control". I only have one version of the data here. If somehow the file is corrupted (not through hardware failure), its gone for good.
While I recognize the flaw, its not very practical for me to have multiple copies/version of a file in the DAS due to the size of my backup (total about 5 TB and still growing).


I am also considering this:
Even if I do have multiple copies/version of back up, there is a storage space limit. Over time, I will have to delete the older versions to make space for the new (or rather the back up software will).
How will I know the newer version is not corrupted without doing periodic CRC checks?
As mentioned by davidktw, we may leave a file untouched for years, only to find that it is corrupted when we finally need it. After a few years, the older "good copy/version" of the file will most likely already been deleted to make space for new data.

 

[davidktw]

Improved my backup strategy a little.
I use a laptop mainly, so I can't really RAID it.

1. Connect External Hdd to laptop (NAS may be preferred for some).

2. Using Acronis True Image's "realtime back up", files are archived to the ext-hdd every 5 minutes, with version control.

Thus, I always have at least 2 copies of the same file at 2 different locations, less the 5 min interval. If file is somehow corrupted, I will be able to restore an earlier copy of the file too.

But as pointed out, I will still have to manually verify that the back up is actually still working and not corrupted. (Acronis has a tool to verify, but I think i will still have to periodically run that tool manually).

3. As the hdd run out of space, I periodically transfer the files to my Raid1-DAS (the copy in the hdd is at this point deleted), then keep the DAS in my cupboard.
Thus, the archived file is protected from hardware failure.
However, the problem lies in "version control". I only have one version of the data here. If somehow the file is corrupted (not through hardware failure), its gone for good.
While I recognize the flaw, its not very practical for me to have multiple copies/version of a file in the DAS due to the size of my backup (total about 5 TB and still growing).


I am also considering this:
Even if I do have multiple copies/version of back up, there is a storage space limit. Over time, I will have to delete the older versions to make space for the new (or rather the back up software will).
How will I know the newer version is not corrupted without doing periodic CRC checks?
As mentioned by davidktw, we may leave a file untouched for years, only to find that it is corrupted when we finally need it. After a few years, the older "good copy/version" of the file will most likely already been deleted to make space for new data.

I'm just having this thought, is an extra CRC really necessary ? I remember harddisk already have CRC inbuilt. If there is any bit flip, most will be detectable when you read the data off the sector. Because CRC is not a cryptographically suitable hashing algorithm as compared to MD5 or maybe even SHA1, if you are really so concern about the accuracy of your data, you should be using MD5 or SHA1. Having 2 layer of CRC doesn't make it much safer.

 

[Asure7]

Actually the reason I use crc is because there was once I copied some files over for backup, and I think there was some error that I was unaware of. The file was actually not completely copied over, BUT I can see that the file exists on the 2nd hdd. Even the file size and time stamp was the same. But clearly the file was corrupted.

With rapidCRC I can do a v quick check. The crc checksum was simply appended to the end of the filename, plus the program is pretty quick at generating crc checksum.
The same program can also generate md5 but it is slower and creates a separate file for each file u want it to generate for. Either that or it's one file for entire folder or drive - which means I have to regenerate if there r changes to the drive... Too time consuming.

 

[i1magic]

Totally agree.

DIY will need some configuration and knowledge. For those who do NOT want to spend the time to read up or trial & error, then just pay $$ for a good one or just live with low end solutions.

For our data, basically We have 3 categories :
1. Die die cannot lose data. If lose, will lose $$ or will suffer.
2. Data which is important and valuable but If lose liao, heart pain only no $$ loss.
3. Data which gone also nevermind one.

For most people, cat 1 data usually not much but probably with the increase in digital photography, will have more and more cat 2 data.

So we decide with our pocket and effort.

Personally, what I like DIY PC as NAS are :

1. Can double up it as a HTPC
2. Easily customisable
3. Relatively low cost for very decent specs

 

[quekky]

3. As the hdd run out of space, I periodically transfer the files to my Raid1-DAS (the copy in the hdd is at this point deleted), then keep the DAS in my cupboard.
Thus, the archived file is protected from hardware failure.
However, the problem lies in "version control". I only have one version of the data here. If somehow the file is corrupted (not through hardware failure), its gone for good.
While I recognize the flaw, its not very practical for me to have multiple copies/version of a file in the DAS due to the size of my backup (total about 5 TB and still growing).


I am also considering this:
Even if I do have multiple copies/version of back up, there is a storage space limit. Over time, I will have to delete the older versions to make space for the new (or rather the back up software will).
How will I know the newer version is not corrupted without doing periodic CRC checks?
As mentioned by davidktw, we may leave a file untouched for years, only to find that it is corrupted when we finally need it. After a few years, the older "good copy/version" of the file will most likely already been deleted to make space for new data.

You can consider GFS strategy... for me, I'm not so paranoid. I only do a GFS (father and son) backup for my personal data (daily for a week, weekly forever using rsnapshot) and once a while backup to a few clouds

rsnapshot use rsync --link-dest option so the daily backup difference is very small

 

[Asure7]

It happened again.

I was upgrading my backup hdd to a higher capacity one.
After transferring all my files over to the new hdd, I ran a CRC check on all the files and found about 5 corrupted files on the new hdd. Fortunately, the same files on the original hdd were intact.

Now I remember why I was so paranoid about having checksums.

 

[galliano]

Hi bros, need advice.

I download torrents on a regular basis and usually store the files into a portable HDD as storage and smtimes to a thumb drive (to plug & watch directly to my TV).

Understand that a NAS will help resolve all this copying of files here/there. Any low cost NAS to help my situation. Can I use the NAS (w/o my Mac) and download torrents directly from and into the NAS?
If so, can recommend and price?

Apologies ... Newbie here.

 

[davidktw]

Hi bros, need advice.

I download torrents on a regular basis and usually store the files into a portable HDD as storage and smtimes to a thumb drive (to plug & watch directly to my TV).

Understand that a NAS will help resolve all this copying of files here/there. Any low cost NAS to help my situation. Can I use the NAS (w/o my Mac) and download torrents directly from and into the NAS?
If so, can recommend and price?

Apologies ... Newbie here.

These NAS are essential a computer by themselves, just that their form factor are dedicated itself for storage. If you don't need dedicated storage, then a simple small mini itx system will suffice. If you also want the storage that comes with a dedicated NAS, then you can look into Synology, Asustor, Buffalo Linkstation etc.

 

[galliano]

These NAS are essential a computer by themselves, just that their form factor are dedicated itself for storage. If you don't need dedicated storage, then a simple small mini itx system will suffice. If you also want the storage that comes with a dedicated NAS, then you can look into Synology, Asustor, Buffalo Linkstation etc.

Read many threads on the Synology 212J. Good for torrent?

 

[davidktw]

Read many threads on the Synology 212J. Good for torrent?

Torrent don't need much processing power. Generally you can consider Synology's management console one of the best around, if not the best, in this particular segment of NAS solution. So any Synology model you get will get a very good management console.

Go ahead get one if you are interested. I have on/off uses bittorrent in it to download plentiful of good stuffs.

 

[galliano]

Torrent don't need much processing power. Generally you can consider Synology's management console one of the best around, if not the best, in this particular segment of NAS solution. So any Synology model you get will get a very good management console.

Go ahead get one if you are interested. I have on/off uses bittorrent in it to download plentiful of good stuffs.

How does the bit torrent work from the NAS? Do u install the client on the NAS then download using it directly back into the NAS? Or do u still need a pc/Mac to choose torrent to download and direct destination into the NAS?

Apologies for asking such mundane questions?

Which model should I ge for such needs?

 

[davidktw]

How does the bit torrent work from the NAS? Do u install the client on the NAS then download using it directly back into the NAS? Or do u still need a pc/Mac to choose torrent to download and direct destination into the NAS?

Apologies for asking such mundane questions?

Which model should I ge for such needs?

Take a demo ride at DSM Live Demo - Synology Inc. Network Attached Storage - NEW NAS Experience
Wonder into the Download Station and you will understand better.

Choose models based on your performance and storage features need. Management Console are all the same across all models, of course, if the hardware features are not available, you wouldn't get it in the Management Console.

 

[galliano]

Tks aplenty.

Does Synology cover international warranty? Friend coming back from Taiwan. Think the ds212j is bout $240 there compared to $300 here,

Not sure if it's worth it to even carry it back.

Anyway, bit delimma if I should get the 112 or the 212j considering the 112 has USB3.0 which makes it easier for me to transfer files into thumb drives. Not sure if I need more than 1 HDD too.

 

[davidktw]

Tks aplenty.

Does Synology cover international warranty? Friend coming back from Taiwan. Think the ds212j is bout $240 there compared to $300 here,

Not sure if it's worth it to even carry it back.

Anyway, bit delimma if I should get the 112 or the 212j considering the 112 has USB3.0 which makes it easier for me to transfer files into thumb drives. Not sure if I need more than 1 HDD too.

I believe Synology do not carry International warranty. I believe other brands of such products also do not usual carry International warranty.

Well that will depends on what you want. With a 2/3 TB harddisk, are you ready for a failure in the hard drive to lost all at one shot your data ? With only a couple hundreds of bucks you are going to spend, do you want to spend another 500 or more on recovery when it fails ?
It's all up to you, I'm just giving you the odds that you will be facing.

That's why these NAS are available not just for the features it brings with, but more importantly the durability of the data by using the main RAID feature in it to replicate the very same data across more than 1 hard disks so that it can sustain failure in any of the harddisks and still keep your data intact.

 

[galliano]

Bought the ds212j today. Installed the synology assistant and the dsm using direct cable to PC.

Now when I turn on the NAS w/o any connection .. Status orange light blinking. Manual says blinking orange light is volume crashed or no volume.

Odd thing is my Disk Status is static green.