NSF SOL

[sacredrays]

it takes 2 hands to clap. I think its some attitude issue from TS that leads to this, last time I saw one men kenna charged for insubordination because he got some attitude problem, the sergeant already tahan him for a few months already still like that.

I read about your story that you shouted at the 3SG as he started shouting at you because you never go eat lunch? This shouldn't be your first time skipping lunch right? Just go and scan got so hard?

The thing about your sergeant enforcing this is they have to meet a quota for indenting your meals, they don't want any trouble and of course have to get everyone to cooperate.

For me, I really think that disobeying very simple things in army and get charged is the most stupidest thing you can get into.

This just my opinions only. Not flaming you whatsoever...

 

[Kyoji83]

Ts, I have read your case in HWZ.

If it does not concern him & you shout at him because he did not mind his own business, there maybe still a chance after you say sorry to him & the commanders involve in this case.

However the stupidly part is you AWOL for a paid Lunch that require your SGT to be accountable for your action.

And you are the one who committed an offence first & you still wish to shout back at your SGT?

As a commander, I personally feel that you deserve to be charge with SOL.

 

[oration37]

CO is SDO (senior disciplinary officer), while OC is JDO (junior disciplinary officer).

Only officers who HAS RECIEVED SDO or JDO appointment can charge you. That was the system I know of in 2002.

New OC, if haven't been blessed with JDO appointment, can't charge. They can only refer you to other SDO or JDO to charge you.

Be at your best discipline during this time. Talk nicely to your new OC if he interviews you or try to find out what is wrong. Each individual people has their own unique character. Maybe you new OC is a compassionate person... maybe otherwise.

All the best.

 

[tomgary]

it takes 2 hands to clap. I think its some attitude issue from TS that leads to this, last time I saw one men kenna charged for insubordination because he got some attitude problem, the sergeant already tahan him for a few months already still like that.

I read about your story that you shouted at the 3SG as he started shouting at you because you never go eat lunch? This shouldn't be your first time skipping lunch right? Just go and scan got so hard?

The thing about your sergeant enforcing this is they have to meet a quota for indenting your meals, they don't want any trouble and of course have to get everyone to cooperate.

For me, I really think that disobeying very simple things in army and get charged is the most stupidest thing you can get into.

This just my opinions only. Not flaming you whatsoever...

I know what you mean. I didn't skip my.lunch before 2ndly I'm vocation is ASA my lunch is pack by storeman and I not feeling well that is why I stay at bunk rest he ask why you not at office rest I say I got fever medic can prove and he say why you rest is close eye wtf I told him you rest you don't close eye then you open eye iszit? Isn't it show that he talk without a logic? And that is why he say so much thing and reject 4 to 5 time until I scold the vulgarity.

 

[tomgary]

Ts, I have read your case in HWZ.

If it does not concern him & you shout at him because he did not mind his own business, there maybe still a chance after you say sorry to him & the commanders involve in this case.

However the stupidly part is you AWOL for a paid Lunch that require your SGT to be accountable for your action.

And you are the one who committed an offence first & you still wish to shout back at your SGT?

As a commander, I personally feel that you deserve to be charge with SOL.

Sorry I still don't think I deserve to be charge my lunch is pack for office by storeman and you can't let me eat 2 person meal yet I army only paid for once? Hope you get what I mean.

 

[tomgary]

CO is SDO (senior disciplinary officer), while OC is JDO (junior disciplinary officer).

Only officers who HAS RECIEVED SDO or JDO appointment can charge you. That was the system I know of in 2002.

New OC, if haven't been blessed with JDO appointment, can't charge. They can only refer you to other SDO or JDO to charge you.

Be at your best discipline during this time. Talk nicely to your new OC if he interviews you or try to find out what is wrong. Each individual people has their own unique character. Maybe you new OC is a compassionate person... maybe otherwise.

All the best.

Thank for your detail hope is different and able to talk thing out. I have requested to my CSM about my charge can serve after cny he say he will help me about this.

 

[sacredrays]

I know what you mean. I didn't skip my.lunch before 2ndly I'm vocation is ASA my lunch is pack by storeman and I not feeling well that is why I stay at bunk rest he ask why you not at office rest I say I got fever medic can prove and he say why you rest is close eye wtf I told him you rest you don't close eye then you open eye iszit? Isn't it show that he talk without a logic? And that is why he say so much thing and reject 4 to 5 time until I scold the vulgarity.

So your sergeant go and report you to oc after that? Sounds like he is picking on you, nothing much you can do. But why didn't you explain to your oc at that point of time?

btw, if got fever should just go see mo or tell your superior about it, its about covering your ass and prevent stuff like that from happening..

 

[mypillowtalks]

I seek for other officer help as that stated as long I say a single vulgarity is consider hard case to fight.
Yes this is a unwilling charge the 3SG provoke me shouted at me for never go eat lunch.

This is my first timer.
Ccb powerful?
Anyway I have depression record and before I got this I told them don't provoke me or I will do whatever thing I can't control isn't that show he provoke me if he does not shouted at me? Couldn't he just talk nicely?

I know what you mean. I didn't skip my.lunch before 2ndly I'm vocation is ASA my lunch is pack by storeman and I not feeling well that is why I stay at bunk rest he ask why you not at office rest I say I got fever medic can prove and he say why you rest is close eye wtf I told him you rest you don't close eye then you open eye iszit? Isn't it show that he talk without a logic? And that is why he say so much thing and reject 4 to 5 time until I scold the vulgarity.

Ok, from what i understand:

(1) This is your first time skipping lunch
(2) Since your first day in the unit, your storeman pack lunch for you daily.
(3) Your sergeant shouted at you for skipping lunch that day; as you were not feeling well, you went to the bunk to rest in with your eyes closed after a visit to the medic.
(4) Your response was "CCB". I assume this is the hokkien vulgarity
(5) You told them before you have depression, do not provoke you, else you will not be sure what you can do.
(6) Now, the matter was escalated and you could probably get charged.

Therefore, on the day during lunch time, you went up to your bunk to rest because you told the medic you were not feeling well. (Anyway i believe resting in bunk without permission is not allowed)

Questions in my mind:

What time did the sergeant come to shout at TS?
Was it after lunch time?

If it is NOT after lunch time, what makes the 3SG think that TS will skip lunch, what if TS's intention was to have a late lunch after he feels better?
Does the 3SG possess psychiatric power, or was he assuming facts without proper investigations?

If is after lunch time, or never happen on the same day:
What if TS already ate lunch bought from the mess? Was the 3SG sure TS never eat lunch?
What if TS did ate lunch, but only never eat cookhouse food.

Did the 3SG take the effort to find out why TS was resting in bunk?
If the 3SG didn't take the effort to find out, why?
If he did take the effort to find out, why does the 3SG have shout at a sick person(with history depression) instead of talking nicely first?
Was it because the 3SG have intention at that point in time to provoke a person with depression?

Did TS utter a vulgarity to let off steam, instead of targeting it at the 3SG?
Why did the 3SG think that the vulgarity was targeted at him?
Was it because the 3SG knew that TS never eat cookhouse food, went up to TS bunk and started shouting at TS without finding out if he is sick, hoping that TS will respond with a vulgarity; meaning to say the 3SG have the intention to provoked TS?
If no, why didn't the 3SG shout instead of talk nicely first?
If yes, why didn't the 3SG think that sure after shouting, TS may suffer from possible PTSD or Depression again?
The 3SG as a commander couldn't access the situation and respond appropriately?

Why TS wasn't sent to the medical center to be seen by the MO if he was having fever, where is the safety?

Ok, after all this, have to listen to the sergeant's side .
But i think the above could be quite good question to ask the sergeant.

Because i very nosy and kaypoh, i am interested to know if the OC conduct a proper investigation before charging?

If yes, how is he sure that when TS scolded the vulgarity, it was targeted at the 3SG? The OC assume also?

TS must take the situation to your advantage liao, they charge u say u scold 3SG, what if ur intention is to let out steam, and not scold the 3SG?

If OC charge you for scolding 3SG, while you do not have any intention to target the 3SG, the investigation not properly conducted? Why?

 

[sacredrays]

want to escalate everything call mindef hotline.


But seriously, if just like that get 21 days sol, which I think it's quite harsh. Something is wrong here.. don't think it's that simple (probably there is some other issues too).

 

[Kyoji83]

I am a commander who will always give welfare to my NSmen. I only request very basic thing. If they cannot go for lunch at cookhouse for whatever reason, just pass their 11B to those who are going to scan card such as me. If my NSmen fall sick, I try to arrange for transport & sent him to medical centre to report sick & get Attend C (MC) if needed.

I think your case is not simple as what you feedback in HWZ. Is there anything you wish to add on & share with us in detail before we can advice or comment about it?

By the way, ...

The storeman pack lunch for you but did he get your 11B to scan for your share?

You report sick to medic but the medic advice you to report sick at medical centre? Why you did not report sick to medical centre but only report it to medic?

Sorry I still don't think I deserve to be charge my lunch is pack for office by storeman and you can't let me eat 2 person meal yet I army only paid for once? Hope you get what I mean.

 

[Da_Vinci]

yeah 21 days SOL is abit too harsh, for insubordination charges normally 14days max but this is usually for repeated offenders etc.

Perhaps when your SGT resting in bunk, he must have thought you malinger

 

[j_t_fusion]

cannot be 21 SOL just because of this single incident...

TS must have cause some trouble or attitude problem in the past and this incident that TS mentioned must be the breaking point for the commanders...

 

[tomgary]

Ok, from what i understand:

(1) This is your first time skipping lunch
(2) Since your first day in the unit, your storeman pack lunch for you daily.
(3) Your sergeant shouted at you for skipping lunch that day; as you were not feeling well, you went to the bunk to rest in with your eyes closed after a visit to the medic.
(4) Your response was "CCB". I assume this is the hokkien vulgarity
(5) You told them before you have depression, do not provoke you, else you will not be sure what you can do.
(6) Now, the matter was escalated and you could probably get charged.

Therefore, on the day during lunch time, you went up to your bunk to rest because you told the medic you were not feeling well. (Anyway i believe resting in bunk without permission is not allowed)

Questions in my mind:

What time did the sergeant come to shout at TS?
Was it after lunch time?

If it is NOT after lunch time, what makes the 3SG think that TS will skip lunch, what if TS's intention was to have a late lunch after he feels better?
Does the 3SG possess psychiatric power, or was he assuming facts without proper investigations?

If is after lunch time, or never happen on the same day:
What if TS already ate lunch bought from the mess? Was the 3SG sure TS never eat lunch?
What if TS did ate lunch, but only never eat cookhouse food.

Did the 3SG take the effort to find out why TS was resting in bunk?
If the 3SG didn't take the effort to find out, why?
If he did take the effort to find out, why does the 3SG have shout at a sick person(with history depression) instead of talking nicely first?
Was it because the 3SG have intention at that point in time to provoke a person with depression?

Did TS utter a vulgarity to let off steam, instead of targeting it at the 3SG?
Why did the 3SG think that the vulgarity was targeted at him?
Was it because the 3SG knew that TS never eat cookhouse food, went up to TS bunk and started shouting at TS without finding out if he is sick, hoping that TS will respond with a vulgarity; meaning to say the 3SG have the intention to provoked TS?
If no, why didn't the 3SG shout instead of talk nicely first?
If yes, why didn't the 3SG think that sure after shouting, TS may suffer from possible PTSD or Depression again?
The 3SG as a commander couldn't access the situation and respond appropriately?

Why TS wasn't sent to the medical center to be seen by the MO if he was having fever, where is the safety?

Ok, after all this, have to listen to the sergeant's side .
But i think the above could be quite good question to ask the sergeant.

Because i very nosy and kaypoh, i am interested to know if the OC conduct a proper investigation before charging?

If yes, how is he sure that when TS scolded the vulgarity, it was targeted at the 3SG? The OC assume also?

TS must take the situation to your advantage liao, they charge u say u scold 3SG, what if ur intention is to let out steam, and not scold the 3SG?

If OC charge you for scolding 3SG, while you do not have any intention to target the 3SG, the investigation not properly conducted? Why?

He came up to my bunk when the hq just move off.

The OC ask me did you scold vulgarity I say yes but... he straight say OK go take your 11b and camp pass give me after I pass he ask me go write statement that all.

 

[tomgary]

I am a commander who will always give welfare to my NSmen. I only request very basic thing. If they cannot go for lunch at cookhouse for whatever reason, just pass their 11B to those who are going to scan card such as me. If my NSmen fall sick, I try to arrange for transport & sent him to medical centre to report sick & get Attend C (MC) if needed.

I think your case is not simple as what you feedback in HWZ. Is there anything you wish to add on & share with us in detail before we can advice or comment about it?

By the way, ...

The storeman pack lunch for you but did he get your 11B to scan for your share?

You report sick to medic but the medic advice you to report sick at medical centre? Why you did not report sick to medical centre but only report it to medic?

My company stand is everyday 5 pack for office 1 for oc 1 for csm 1 for clerk 1 for cos and 1 for arm .... idk how to spell. My lunch is include ration.

Medic only ask me rest and eat medicine because only 37.8 .

 

[tomgary]

yeah 21 days SOL is abit too harsh, for insubordination charges normally 14days max but this is usually for repeated offenders etc.

Perhaps when your SGT resting in bunk, he must have thought you malinger

My CSM only told me 21day.

 

[tomgary]

cannot be 21 SOL just because of this single incident...

TS must have cause some trouble or attitude problem in the past and this incident that TS mentioned must be the breaking point for the commanders...

Ya I did have attitude problem I agree with that but if you talk nicely with me of cause I won't give the bad attitude toward you.

 

[Successor.]

In this case the lunch is considered out-ration aka eat out of cookhouse, so the lunch has already been claimed and not like what Kyoji mentioned.

I cant see the scenario and I absolutely can't base on one-sided statement to believe that the sergeant shouted or rudely treated TS.

What I can deduce is that the sergeant could have been showing concern to his subordinates. I mean if you don't eat lunch and afterwards faint, who WILL BE answering for that? Surely it will then become a big matter considering safety MUST always be the top priority.

Since TS has already admitted that you did had attitude problems, I believed that the 21 days SOL was not really uncalled for. Do you know it takes a longer time for your own self to realize you bad attitude rather then others? Your commanders may have been putting up with you for quite sometime and I believed during commanders meeting they would have brought up the case and keep you monitored.

In this case, even the sergeant raised your voice at you, you absolutely have no right to raise your voice back at him simply because this is the army. Everyone have their responsibilities and I am sure not eating lunch is surely not a small matter if you faint later.

Unless I hear the sergeant and your OCs side of story, I am more inclined to think that you probably asked for it and hence the 21 days SOL was not an unfair treatment.

 

[tomgary]

In this case the lunch is considered out-ration aka eat out of cookhouse, so the lunch has already been claimed and not like what Kyoji mentioned.

I cant see the scenario and I absolutely can't base on one-sided statement to believe that the sergeant shouted or rudely treated TS.

What I can deduce is that the sergeant could have been showing concern to his subordinates. I mean if you don't eat lunch and afterwards faint, who WILL BE answering for that? Surely it will then become a big matter considering safety MUST always be the top priority.

Since TS has already admitted that you did had attitude problems, I believed that the 21 days SOL was not really uncalled for. Do you know it takes a longer time for your own self to realize you bad attitude rather then others? Your commanders may have been putting up with you for quite sometime and I believed during commanders meeting they would have brought up the case and keep you monitored.

In this case, even the sergeant raised your voice at you, you absolutely have no right to raise your voice back at him simply because this is the army. Everyone have their responsibilities and I am sure not eating lunch is surely not a small matter if you faint later.

Unless I hear the sergeant and your OCs side of story, I am more inclined to think that you probably asked for it and hence the 21 days SOL was not an unfair treatment.

I understand what you are trying to say. But why don't I have the change to appeal? Where is my right of speech? Why they just want my story and the spec? Instead there is another 3 spec around? Isn't oc should get the 3 spec statement to judge? Now I am the most disadvantage yet this case have been dragging till now it's been 2month.

 

[tomgary]

In this case the lunch is considered out-ration aka eat out of cookhouse, so the lunch has already been claimed and not like what Kyoji mentioned.

I cant see the scenario and I absolutely can't base on one-sided statement to believe that the sergeant shouted or rudely treated TS.

What I can deduce is that the sergeant could have been showing concern to his subordinates. I mean if you don't eat lunch and afterwards faint, who WILL BE answering for that? Surely it will then become a big matter considering safety MUST always be the top priority.

Since TS has already admitted that you did had attitude problems, I believed that the 21 days SOL was not really uncalled for. Do you know it takes a longer time for your own self to realize you bad attitude rather then others? Your commanders may have been putting up with you for quite sometime and I believed during commanders meeting they would have brought up the case and keep you monitored.

In this case, even the sergeant raised your voice at you, you absolutely have no right to raise your voice back at him simply because this is the army. Everyone have their responsibilities and I am sure not eating lunch is surely not a small matter if you faint later.

Unless I hear the sergeant and your OCs side of story, I am more inclined to think that you probably asked for it and hence the 21 days SOL was not an unfair treatment.

I understand what you are trying to say. But why don't I have the chance to appeal? Where is my right of speech? Why they just want my story and the spec? Instead there is another 3 spec around? Isn't oc should get the 3 spec statement to judge? Now I am the most disadvantage yet this case have been dragging till now it's been 2month.

 

[chehjin]

I understand what you are trying to say. But why don't I have the change to appeal? Where is my right of speech? Why they just want my story and the spec? Instead there is another 3 spec around? Isn't oc should get the 3 spec statement to judge? Now I am the most disadvantage yet this case have been dragging till now it's been 2month.

first, you admitted you committed the offence. so law by law, you are in the wrong and liable for the charge.

in this case, why need account of 3rd spec?

so now you wan to appeal and tell your side of the story, hoping that the account will lessen your charge by showing you are somewhat the victim but you admit your attitude have not been very good in the past for whatever reasons. so why would anyone be willing to help you or believe you now?

why is dragging the case to your disadvantage?

I don't know you personally but like the rest, knowing how the majority of people in SAF works, this 21 SOL can't be isolated charge for a single vulgarity. therefore, instead of fighting for your so called freedom of speech, maybe take it down a notch or 2 and reflect on yourself, show your remorse will go a longer way than fighting the system.