Physical contact in ns

[Kyoji83]

1) So did the S1 or Commander share with you if there are any 'report' by phone or email if there is really an accident?

2) I believe your case should be under MO recommendation for ORD FFI & approving officer can just blindly approved it.

I have personally processed an application that did not involve any witness. And it was a minor injury that required treatment post-ORD. And it was approved. There was no such "challenge" by any "higher commanders".

The commanders don't have to "fight" for any right for any serviceman to file any report. The serviceman can personally file it with the S1.

 

[Kyoji83]

This do not consider as service injury. But if you keep suddenly keep having nose bleeding (for example), SAF have to take care of you during this 2 years as NSF. So you will get co-pay or fully claimable during your NSF time. However after you ORD, you may only get co-pay or bear by yourself.

Then what about injuries sustained before service? Like my nose lol. And i saw a lot of nsf with gauze taped over their nipples while running shirtless, most likely cos of abrasion ouch. Would saf pay preventative surgery like gynecoastia in this case to prevent bloody tits?

 

[reddevil0728]

For service injury report, you needs to inform your commander first hand when you have a service injury. For example, fall from height (rope station during SOC). Surely there will be commander station there & they will get medic to assist you immediately & sent you to see MO.

But if you fall from height (rope station during SOC) & there were no commander around which is the reason why you did not inform your commander, it will not be recognized for service injury report because you cannot support your claim.

So are you saying that if there's nobody around to witness the action that resulted in your service injury, you shouldn't even make a service injury claim?

So if nobody witness you being robbed, you shouldn't make a police report?

Yes, you should inform commanders of any injury sustained during training, but that is pertaining to safety during training, not filing of service injury report.

As long as you are injured while performing your duty in service (including to/fro camp, as said), you can file a service injury report. There is a process in place to establish facts. There's no requirement stating that commanders must be present during the incident to support the claim (or else officer/specialist cadets will not be able to file any report, given the cadet governance system).

precisely, if what happened to you is a service injury, should file a service injury claim regardless. The investigation is a different ball game.

1) That is provided everything went fine.

2) Commander (& higher commander) will challenge the claim. You got no witness. Even if you have witness, it is not serious injury which is the reason why you can walk away fine without reporting sick at that point of time.

3) Higher Commander also will question your Commander why his man got serious injury but no one know about this accident until so many days/months have pass.

4) So many commanders in SAF are too lazy to even issue servicemen a form to draw their rank epaulettes & order them to use their emart Credit to buy it, what make you think commanders will fight for your right for point 2 & 3 that affect their performance (bonus, rank promotion & etc)?

If such stuff happens to you or whoever you know and they got witness, you go tell them to not even bother filing a service injury claim ok?

Also if someone you know have a crime committed on them but nobody witnessed it, don't bother reporting to the police.

Then what about injuries sustained before service? Like my nose lol. And i saw a lot of nsf with gauze taped over their nipples while running shirtless, most likely cos of abrasion ouch. Would saf pay preventative surgery like gynecoastia in this case to prevent bloody tits?

I believe that as long as you do any medical procedure (except procedures that are cosmetic in nature) during your NS period, it will be covered regardless of whether it is pre-existing condition or not.

I have personally processed an application that did not involve any witness. And it was a minor injury that required treatment post-ORD. And it was approved. There was no such "challenge" by any "higher commanders".

The commanders don't have to "fight" for any right for any serviceman to file any report. The serviceman can personally file it with the S1.

Kyoji83 is arguing for the sake of arguing.

1) So did the S1 or Commander share with you if there are any 'report' by phone or email if there is really an accident?

2) I believe your case should be under MO recommendation for ORD FFI & approving officer can just blindly approved it.

my question to u is still the same. if nobody witness it, you don't bother filing a report?

This do not consider as service injury. But if you keep suddenly keep having nose bleeding (for example), SAF have to take care of you during this 2 years as NSF. So you will get co-pay or fully claimable during your NSF time. However after you ORD, you may only get co-pay or bear by yourself.

what kind of stuff requires co-payment during NSF time other than ward charges if it is not due to service injury.

 

[InvisibleEvolution]

1) So did the S1 or Commander share with you if there are any 'report' by phone or email if there is really an accident?

2) I believe your case should be under MO recommendation for ORD FFI & approving officer can just blindly approved it.

1) What? I don't understand your question.

Once serviceman has filed the report, he will be kept in the loop (even after ORD) until the application is approved/rejected, inclusive any request for further documents.

Like I said, there is a process in place to establish facts.

2) ORD FFI is a separate thing. You declare any service injury sustained, but you still have to file a report separately. They are two different things.

It cannot be "blindly" approved. Every report goes all the way up the chain of command to the serviceman's PMC/NSHRC before it can be finally approved.

Seriously, have you seen how thick the entire set of forms are?

 

[Kyoji83]

Regardless if there was a witness or not, I will not & I do not have the right to stop serviceman to report to his commander & report sick or even trying to make a service injury.

However there is a different between those who report immediately or days/months later.

So are you saying that if there's nobody around to witness the action that resulted in your service injury, you shouldn't even make a service injury claim?

So if nobody witness you being robbed, you shouldn't make a police report?

precisely, if what happened to you is a service injury, should file a service injury claim regardless. The investigation is a different ball game.

If such stuff happens to you or whoever you know and they got witness, you go tell them to not even bother filing a service injury claim ok?

Also if someone you know have a crime committed on them but nobody witnessed it, don't bother reporting to the police.

I believe that as long as you do any medical procedure (except procedures that are cosmetic in nature) during your NS period, it will be covered regardless of whether it is pre-existing condition or not.


Kyoji83 is arguing for the sake of arguing.

my question to u is still the same. if nobody witness it, you don't bother filing a report?
what kind of stuff requires co-payment during NSF time other than ward charges if it is not due to service injury.

 

[Kyoji83]

When you fall from height (rope station during SOC) & break your nose, you report to the commander & report sick immediately. The commander will write an accident report & MO will you a diagnosis report with the date of accident. This can support your claim for service injury.

If you do not report this accident immediately & wait for many days/months later, SAF can claim that you have an accident outside (Eg: Accident cause by playing soccer during book out period) & this does not consider service injury. When you are enlisted, your status become 'dependent' & it is SAF responsible to take care of you during your NSF. So they may cover fully or partially the amount for medical bill.

However once you ORD, your status become 'independent'. Those commander who are welfare may approved & allow you to partially claim the medical bill since this accident happen during your NSF time while those heartless commander will not approved you to claim the medical bill cause this is not a service injury.

--------------------------------------------------

If you needs immediate attention for surgery, SAF will pay for it. If not, it will depend on case by case basis.

Then what about injuries sustained before service? Like my nose lol. And i saw a lot of nsf with gauze taped over their nipples while running shirtless, most likely cos of abrasion ouch. Would saf pay preventative surgery like gynecoastia in this case to prevent bloody tits?

 

[reddevil0728]

Regardless if there was a witness or not, I will not & I do not have the right to stop serviceman to report to his commander & report sick or even trying to make a service injury.

However there is a different between those who report immediately or days/months later.

Of course there's a difference reporting immediately and reporting much later.

If there's no witness, the more one should report earlier.

But if there are witnesses, one should still report as early as possible, but if they have to do it later, it will still be "finer" than if there is no witness.

But the way you are putting across is, you are discouraging ppl from even reporting if there are no witness. You seem to be siding them.

 

[Kyoji83]

You only see the process of submitting service injury claim but not the behind scene.

For example, rifleman with a broken bone for his leg report to PC that this accident happen during SOC (Eg: fall from height at rope station during SOC) many days ago. PC will ask rifleman to report sick to MO & get diagnosis. PC will inform OC & investigate this accident. Whole platoon & commanders did not witness or remember rifleman fall from height at rope station during SOC. Commander from Coy get MO report & diagnosis that broken bone will not be able walk & some more bear the pain for many days. Possible fractured bone from fall and cause broken bone due to delay treatment & proper care.

(1) Rifleman maybe malingering cause no one witness this accident & this may happen outside (Eg: Serviceman's hobby is playing soccer & accident may cause by playing soccer during book out period).

(2) Or rifleman found negligence for failing to inform accident and cause his injures to become worst.

Investigation team give their recommendation on point 1 or 2 with supporting documents like MO report & etc to CO. CO give orders to punish serviceman or allow serviceman to submit service injury claim.

1) What? I don't understand your question.

Once serviceman has filed the report, he will be kept in the loop (even after ORD) until the application is approved/rejected, inclusive any request for further documents.

Like I said, there is a process in place to establish facts.

2) ORD FFI is a separate thing. You declare any service injury sustained, but you still have to file a report separately. They are two different things.

It cannot be "blindly" approved. Every report goes all the way up the chain of command to the serviceman's PMC/NSHRC before it can be finally approved.

Seriously, have you seen how thick the entire set of forms are?

 

[reddevil0728]

You only see the process of submitting service injury claim but not the behind scene.

For example, rifleman with a broken bone for his leg report to PC that this accident happen during SOC (Eg: fall from height at rope station during SOC) many days ago. PC will ask rifleman to report sick to MO & get diagnosis. PC will inform OC & investigate this accident. Whole platoon & commanders did not witness or remember rifleman fall from height at rope station during SOC. Commander from Coy get MO report & diagnosis that broken bone will not be able walk & some more bear the pain for many days. Possible fractured bone from fall and cause broken bone due to delay treatment & proper care.

(1) Rifleman maybe malingering cause no one witness this accident & this may happen outside (Eg: Serviceman's hobby is playing soccer & accident may cause by playing soccer during book out period).

(2) Or rifleman found negligence for failing to inform accident and cause his injures to become worst.

Investigation team give their recommendation on point 1 or 2 with supporting documents like MO report & etc to CO. CO give orders to punish serviceman or allow serviceman to submit service injury claim.

Regardless of what, it doesn't matter human nature to cover their own arse or what, it does not change the fact that someone should file a claim for service injury be it witnessed or unwitnessed. There is such thing call "circumstantial evidence".

 

[trento]

I was pes c so only was vehicle mechanic. Eyesight problem. Heard they don't downgrade now cos of eyesight

 

[InvisibleEvolution]

You only see the process of submitting service injury claim but not the behind scene.

For example, rifleman with a broken bone for his leg report to PC that this accident happen during SOC (Eg: fall from height at rope station during SOC) many days ago. PC will ask rifleman to report sick to MO & get diagnosis. PC will inform OC & investigate this accident. Whole platoon & commanders did not witness or remember rifleman fall from height at rope station during SOC. Commander from Coy get MO report & diagnosis that broken bone will not be able walk & some more bear the pain for many days. Possible fractured bone from fall and cause broken bone due to delay treatment & proper care.

(1) Rifleman maybe malingering cause no one witness this accident & this may happen outside (Eg: Serviceman's hobby is playing soccer & accident may cause by playing soccer during book out period).

(2) Or rifleman found negligence for failing to inform accident and cause his injures to become worst.

Investigation team give their recommendation on point 1 or 2 with supporting documents like MO report & etc to CO. CO give orders to punish serviceman or allow serviceman to submit service injury claim.

Every service injury report goes through a MO. If you think malingering is possible, then you are obviously not aware of the process behind it.

There is no investigation "team". You don't "give recommendations to the CO". The fact that you are playing fast and loose with your own terms just make your information all the more dubious.

You can live by your information all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that reports contradicting what you have said have been approved.

 

[reddevil0728]

Every service injury report goes through a MO. If you think malingering is possible, then you are obviously not aware of the process behind it.

There is no investigation "team". You don't "give recommendations to the CO". The fact that you are playing fast and loose with your own terms just make your information all the more dubious.

You can live by your information all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that reports contradicting what you have said have been approved.

His is an example of wanting to provide "meaningful" information, but actually wrong information.

 

[Kyoji83]

Base on my example on #28, you mean the rifleman can just walk in to see MO & just claim any one of the reasons [(1) Fall from height at rope station during SOC, or (2) Play soccer during book out period)] for his accident & MO will inform S1 with supporting documents to sent to Personnel Management Centre (PMC) to get Service Injury(SI) Card?

You are obviously not aware of the process behind it. If rifleman injures was base on playing soccer during book out period, you thinking approving officer will approved his case & give him SI Card?

If rifleman injures was due to fall from height at rope station during SOC many days/months again, why no one is reporting this accident to CO? You have a Supervising Officer (Mostly OC), Conducting Officer (Mostly PC), Safety Officer (Mostly CSM) & a group of commanders conducting SOC at platoon/company level. Are the commanders sleeping on the job? Ok, rifleman never report the accident to any commander. Then for so many days/months, not a single commander in the whole company witness the drop of performance from rifleman such as climbing up the stairs, limping while walking & etc? What are the commanders doing? You think CO will not ask for a investigation team because it is contradicting between rifleman to MO vs whole company commanders? Then this is where they ask for witness & ask platoon about the accident. After so many days/months, you think got any serviceman will still remember it?

So during this period of time, CO can on hold the service injury claim while still allowing rifleman to get medical treatment. Then it will get back to:

(1) Rifleman maybe malingering cause no one witness this accident & this may happen outside (Eg: Serviceman's hobby is playing soccer & accident may cause by playing soccer during book out period).

(2) Or rifleman found negligence for failing to inform accident and cause his injures to become worst.

Every service injury report goes through a MO. If you think malingering is possible, then you are obviously not aware of the process behind it.

There is no investigation "team". You don't "give recommendations to the CO". The fact that you are playing fast and loose with your own terms just make your information all the more dubious.

You can live by your information all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that reports contradicting what you have said have been approved.

 

[reddevil0728]

Base on my example on #28, you mean the rifleman can just walk in to see MO & just claim any one of the reasons [(1) Fall from height at rope station during SOC, or (2) Play soccer during book out period)] for his accident & MO will inform S1 with supporting documents to sent to Personnel Management Centre (PMC) to get Service Injury(SI) Card?

You are obviously not aware of the process behind it. If rifleman injures was base on playing soccer during book out period, you thinking approving officer will approved his case & give him SI Card?

If rifleman injures was due to fall from height at rope station during SOC many days/months again, why no one is reporting this accident to CO? You have a Supervising Officer (Mostly OC), Conducting Officer (Mostly PC), Safety Officer (Mostly CSM) & a group of commanders conducting SOC at platoon/company level. Are the commanders sleeping on the job? Ok, rifleman never report the accident to any commander. Then for so many days/months, not a single commander in the whole company witness the drop of performance from rifleman such as climbing up the stairs, limping while walking & etc? What are the commanders doing? You think CO will not ask for a investigation team because it is contradicting between rifleman to MO vs whole company commanders? Then this is where they ask for witness & ask platoon about the accident. After so many days/months, you think got any serviceman will still remember it?

So during this period of time, CO can on hold the service injury claim while still allowing rifleman to get medical treatment. Then it will get back to:

(1) Rifleman maybe malingering cause no one witness this accident & this may happen outside (Eg: Serviceman's hobby is playing soccer & accident may cause by playing soccer during book out period).

(2) Or rifleman found negligence for failing to inform accident and cause his injures to become worst.

The serviceman can claim whatever he wants, he can even claim that he got raped, or he got robbed or whatever. However, at the end of the day, investigation still has to be done to confirm whether the claims is legit or not.

You are muddling the difference between being able to make claims, and have the claims approved.

So I'm putting to you this question again.

If a serviceman feels that his injury is a result of service, but somehow nobody witnessed it, should the serviceman even bother filing a service injury claim even if the the chances of approval is very low for whatever reason?

 

[InvisibleEvolution]

Base on my example on #28, you mean the rifleman can just walk in to see MO & just claim any one of the reasons [(1) Fall from height at rope station during SOC, or (2) Play soccer during book out period)] for his accident & MO will inform S1 with supporting documents to sent to Personnel Management Centre (PMC) to get Service Injury(SI) Card?

You are obviously not aware of the process behind it. If rifleman injures was base on playing soccer during book out period, you thinking approving officer will approved his case & give him SI Card?

If rifleman injures was due to fall from height at rope station during SOC many days/months again, why no one is reporting this accident to CO? You have a Supervising Officer (Mostly OC), Conducting Officer (Mostly PC), Safety Officer (Mostly CSM) & a group of commanders conducting SOC at platoon/company level. Are the commanders sleeping on the job? Ok, rifleman never report the accident to any commander. Then for so many days/months, not a single commander in the whole company witness the drop of performance from rifleman such as climbing up the stairs, limping while walking & etc? What are the commanders doing? You think CO will not ask for a investigation team because it is contradicting between rifleman to MO vs whole company commanders? Then this is where they ask for witness & ask platoon about the accident. After so many days/months, you think got any serviceman will still remember it?

So during this period of time, CO can on hold the service injury claim while still allowing rifleman to get medical treatment. Then it will get back to:

(1) Rifleman maybe malingering cause no one witness this accident & this may happen outside (Eg: Serviceman's hobby is playing soccer & accident may cause by playing soccer during book out period).

(2) Or rifleman found negligence for failing to inform accident and cause his injures to become worst.

The MO does not inform S1. Serviceman files report himself.

Seriously, have you even filed/processed one before, or at least seen the forms? Because if you have, all these are clearly laid out.

Using terms like "approving officer" and "give him SI Card" is not helping your case. Those in the know would know how the SI Card is issued to the serviceman when the case is approved. Neither is "Supervising Officer (Mostly OC), Conducting Officer (Mostly PC), Safety Officer (Mostly CSM)" (TSR has been updated, by the way), so we know where this is going.

You (or anyone else, for that matter) don't have to believe my words. Information is available in the public domain:

https://www.cmpb.gov.sg/cmpb/life-i...re/insurance-compensation-and-service-injury/
https://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/press_room/faqs/faqmedclaims.html

Or, if you possess an ISAC card, you can access the related directive/forms.

You can keep on insisting that a commander/witness must be around (not that them being around won't help, but it's not required), but logic from the above official information would tell you that it would be impossible in all cases (unless you go/leave home from/to camp with your commanders).

 

[Kyoji83]

What you are sharing is just the application process of service injury claim.

What I am sharing is side effects when application process of service injury claim have started.

-----------------------------

Haha, seriously have you been to combat unit? Rifleman have to inform his commander before he report sick. Then for my example, sure got other section mate or commander assist him (due to his injury) to medical centre. Serviceman (Rifleman) files report to S1 himself? This job will be done by Company Clerk & company office so small, sure OC, Coy 2IC & CSM will found out about this case & then follow by PC, PS & SC. You think they will not put on hold service injury claim first & investigate this case with Rifleman & his platoon to understand what really happen (to cover up the commanders own ass)?

The MO does not inform S1. Serviceman files report himself.

Seriously, have you even filed/processed one before, or at least seen the forms? Because if you have, all these are clearly laid out.

Using terms like "approving officer" and "give him SI Card" is not helping your case. Those in the know would know how the SI Card is issued to the serviceman when the case is approved. Neither is "Supervising Officer (Mostly OC), Conducting Officer (Mostly PC), Safety Officer (Mostly CSM)" (TSR has been updated, by the way), so we know where this is going.

You (or anyone else, for that matter) don't have to believe my words. Information is available in the public domain:

https://www.cmpb.gov.sg/cmpb/life-i...re/insurance-compensation-and-service-injury/
https://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/press_room/faqs/faqmedclaims.html

Or, if you possess an ISAC card, you can access the related directive/forms.

You can keep on insisting that a commander/witness must be around (not that them being around won't help, but it's not required), but logic from the above official information would tell you that it would be impossible in all cases (unless you go/leave home from/to camp with your commanders).

 

[InvisibleEvolution]

His is an example of wanting to provide "meaningful" information, but actually wrong information.

Exactly.

Thing is, he refuses to accept the fact that things may have changed, and that his information may be outdated (or dubious, for that matter, given his use of random terms) when someone else with knowledge of the process shares their experience.

 

[InvisibleEvolution]

What you are sharing is just the application process of service injury claim.

What I am sharing is side effects when application process of service injury claim have started.

-----------------------------

Haha, seriously have you been to combat unit? Rifleman have to inform his commander before he report sick. Then for my example, sure got other section mate or commander assist him (due to his injury) to medical centre. Serviceman (Rifleman) files report to S1 himself? This job will be done by Company Clerk & company office so small, sure OC, Coy 2IC & CSM will found out about this case & then follow by PC, PS & SC. You think they will not put on hold service injury claim first & investigate this case with Rifleman & his platoon to understand what really happen (to cover up the commanders own ass)?

I am a commander.

Does that answer your question?

 

[Kyoji83]

Same answer as my #25, regardless if there was a witness or not, I will not & I do not have the right to stop serviceman to report to his commander & report sick or even trying to make a service injury. However there is a different between those who report immediately or days/months later.

So now, you agree that end of the day, investigation still has to be done to confirm whether the claims is legit or not.

What you all have been doing is just ask TS to fill service injury claim.

What I have been advising is the side effect in behind scene will happen if TS decided to fill service injury claim & what the different between report immediately after accident and report after days/months later.

The serviceman can claim whatever he wants, he can even claim that he got raped, or he got robbed or whatever. However, at the end of the day, investigation still has to be done to confirm whether the claims is legit or not.

You are muddling the difference between being able to make claims, and have the claims approved.

So I'm putting to you this question again.

If a serviceman feels that his injury is a result of service, but somehow nobody witnessed it, should the serviceman even bother filing a service injury claim even if the the chances of approval is very low for whatever reason?

 

[Kyoji83]

I am also a commander. I am also deployed to S1 branch to support admin work due to my matrix reporting structure in my unit. Does that answer your question?

I am a commander.

Does that answer your question?