private annuities

foozgarden

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as the title suggest.
we all know cpf is the best annuity.
so lets put that arguement aside.

what are the best annuity (pte) that has the highest ROI?
also, are there any annuities that pay out for life? (aka cpf-like)
what are the other aspects to consider, other than ROI?
do we take into consideration the non-guaranteed (3.25 or 4.75)?

so far, it seems avivia MRC is the best out there?
3.91% for non-g.
1.62% for g

100k premium over 5 years.
payout 13k from 55 yrs for 10 years.
 

tangent314

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They are all around 4% assuming PAR fund performance of 4.75%.
Also from what I see none of them draw down from the principal sum.
 

BBCWatcher

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also, are there any annuities that pay out for life? (aka cpf-like)
Yes, and that could be a reasonable thing to do in this sort of scenario:

(a) After pushing a lot of funds into CPF, you're then pushing lots of funds into your Supplementary Retirement Scheme (SRS), motivated by the tax relief;

(b) You've got so much money in your SRS at age 62+, and perhaps also with some taxable income (such as rental income) streaming in during your retirement years, that (for tax reasons again) you want to stretch your SRS payouts past the maximum 10 year window; and

(c) You're satisfied with the payout level of the private annuity in terms of lifestyle protection, want to let your CPF Retirement Account sit and accrue ordinary CPF interest (4+%), and are considering filing for a CPF LIFE waiver based on your comparable (or higher monthly payout) private annuity.

In that sort of scenario, a private life annuity could make some financial sense. It's a fairly rare scenario, but it's possible.

NTUC Income ("Guaranteed Life Annuity") and Manulife ("RetireReady Lifetime") are the two SRS-approved private life annuity policies available in Singapore, and NTUC Income's is probably the better value in this comparison. Tokio Marine offers some life annuities, too, but they don't seem to be SRS-approved (because they don't have a single premium payment option, from what I can tell). Which is weird, and maybe they've changed that, but that's what I'm seeing at the moment.
 

BBCWatcher

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Pay a lump sum today. Get paid monthly from the 5th year onwards until age 99. If your plan is high enough, it would be sufficient to exempt yourself from CPF LIFE.
No, not according to CPF. ("3. You must be in receipt of the monthly payment from your annuity policy/pension which pays you for as long as you live.") Only life annuities qualify for CPF LIFE exemptions (CPF Form RSS/8).

Manulife does offer a life annuity, called RetireReady Plus Lifetime. You can use SRS funds to pay for this variant, in a single premium form.
 
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foozgarden

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Yes, and that could be a reasonable thing to do in this sort of scenario:

(a) After pushing a lot of funds into CPF, you're then pushing lots of funds into your Supplementary Retirement Scheme (SRS), motivated by the tax relief;

(b) You've got so much money in your SRS at age 62+, and perhaps also with some taxable income (such as rental income) streaming in during your retirement years, that (for tax reasons again) you want to stretch your SRS payouts past the maximum 10 year window; and

(c) You're satisfied with the payout level of the private annuity in terms of lifestyle protection, want to let your CPF Retirement Account sit and accrue ordinary CPF interest (4+%), and are considering filing for a CPF LIFE waiver based on your comparable (or higher monthly payout) private annuity.

In that sort of scenario, a private life annuity could make some financial sense. It's a fairly rare scenario, but it's possible.

NTUC Income ("Guaranteed Life Annuity") and Manulife ("RetireReady Lifetime") are the two SRS-approved private life annuity policies available in Singapore, and NTUC Income's is probably the better value in this comparison. Tokio Marine offers some life annuities, too, but they don't seem to be SRS-approved (because they don't have a single premium payment option, from what I can tell). Which is weird, and maybe they've changed that, but that's what I'm seeing at the moment.

is using SRS to buy annuity a better choice?
this will free up cash flow... and since SRS needs to be "used", per se.
also this is proabbly one of the ways to utliize SRS funds, instead of investing it in equites?

they always quote 4.75% ROI.
is this truely the case?
is there any precedence that the 4.75% roi doesnt materalise?

how much is the lump sum?

this looks like a UL aka legacy .
similar to the ML heirloom.
but using leverage ..
 

BBCWatcher

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is using SRS to buy annuity a better choice?
That's an interesting question!

Citizens and PRs can contribute $15,300/year into SRS -- and more for some period of time if they start as foreigners in Singapore. If they do that for 30 years (age 30 to 60, let's suppose), every year, then that's $459,000+ of contributions. Which could pretty easily result in a $600K+ SRS balance. At most you can withdraw $40K/year for 10 years tax free -- at most. (If you have other Singapore taxable income, such as rental income, then you could pay some tax on a SRS withdrawal.) The only way to bust through the 10 year withdrawal time limit for the most favorable SRS withdrawal tax rate is to buy a single premium life annuity. It's the one exception to the "10 year rule."

So, if you have this sort of happy problem -- a "too big" SRS account -- then a single premium life annuity from NTUC Income or Manulife could be a reasonable thing to do, for part of your SRS funds anyway.

they always quote 4.75% ROI.
is this truely the case?
No, that's just the number that the Monetary Authority of Singapore says that insurance companies can use as their maximum marketing number. It has absolutely no relation to any reality. Just ignore it, and focus only on the guaranteed part.
 

mSnooze

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as the title suggest.
we all know cpf is the best annuity.
so lets put that arguement aside.

what are the best annuity (pte) that has the highest ROI?
also, are there any annuities that pay out for life? (aka cpf-like)
what are the other aspects to consider, other than ROI?
do we take into consideration the non-guaranteed (3.25 or 4.75)?

so far, it seems avivia MRC is the best out there?
3.91% for non-g.
1.62% for g

100k premium over 5 years.
payout 13k from 55 yrs for 10 years.

Aviva's MRC can be set to pay until 99 as well.

Annuity that payout for life:
High networth single premium only - Manulife Signature Income.
Last time Tokio Marine Annuity quite popular, now Aviva's new Annuity plan MyLifeIncome win it in both guaranteed and non-guaranteed return.
NTUC annuity is quite popular as well among folks.
 

JuniorLion

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The only way to bust through the 10 year withdrawal time limit for the most favorable SRS withdrawal tax rate is to buy a single premium life annuity. It's the one exception to the "10 year rule."

So, if you have this sort of happy problem -- a "too big" SRS account -- then a single premium life annuity from NTUC Income or Manulife could be a reasonable thing to do, for part of your SRS funds anyway.

Can you explain what you mean by "Bust through 10 year withdrawal limit". Do you mean if we use SRS account to purchase annuity, say use ALL our SRS monies (300k) to purchase annuity, then there's no need to pay tax?
 

BBCWatcher

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Can you explain what you mean by "Bust through 10 year withdrawal limit".
Sure.

According to IRAS’s rules, once you start SRS drawdown at age 62 or later you have a maximum of 10 calendar years to draw it down. You can draw it down in any combination of cash or in-kind distributions, such as a transfer of shares of stock to another, regular account. As you take distributions you pay ordinary income tax rates on 50% of the distribution(s) for the calendar year. So if you have no other taxable income, you can make a withdrawal of up to S$40,000 per year tax free (in the 0% tax bracket). Half of $40,000 is $20,000, and that’s the maximum tax free taxable income in Singapore. These figures are calculated inclusive of the gains (accumulated interest, dividends, and capital gains).

You can pause withdrawals (cash and/or in-kind) once you start them, but the single 10 year clock continues to run. Once age 62+ withdrawals start, the 10 year clock starts, too. (And once you start withdrawing at age 62+, you can no longer contribute to your SRS.)

At the end of the 10th year, whether or not you actually withdraw the rest, the entire SRS balance is “deemed withdrawn.” You then pay income tax, at ordinary rates, on 50% of that deemed withdrawal. If that’s $200,000, then you pay income tax on $100,000 — and there is a substantial amount of income tax on that figure. So if you have a “big” SRS, you’re not going to be able to pull out everything in 10 years tax free. And if you have a trickle of other taxable income, such as rental income or a director’s fee or a consulting fee, this gets even harder.

There is ONE and only one exception to the 10 year rule: a single premium LIFE annuity. Not an annuity to age 99 (which is bizarre — why are we even talking about that? buy life!), not an annuity that requires multiple premium payments. (Although you can increase an annuity, or buy another life annuity, as long as it’s still a single premium.) And a life annuity lets you spread out the payments for life, which is hopefully 30+ years (age 62 to age 92+ for example).

Do you mean if we use SRS account to purchase annuity, say use ALL our SRS monies (300k) to purchase annuity, then there's no need to pay tax?
No, you still pay tax, but if the life annuity payout is $40,000 per year or less, and if that’s your only taxable income, you would pay zero income tax in Singapore.

Of course, please double check all these rules, but that’s my understanding.

If the single premium life annuity offers decent or better value for money, then it could be a very reasonable thing to do if you have a “big” (or bigger) SRS and want to be as tax efficient as possible. The life annuity smooths out the withdrawals over a much longer period, helping you stay down into the 0% or at least lower tax brackets.

On the other hand, if you have a really big taxable income in retirement — you’re collecting consulting fees, enormous amounts of rental income, etc., etc. — and you’re in the top 22% tax bracket no matter what you do, then you might as well just yank everything out of your SRS in one shot and pay 11% (22% on 50% of the value of the withdrawal). I’m not describing very many people in this happy situation.

I’m assuming a citizen or PR in the above discussion. The rules are different again for foreigners in certain ways (and for certain ex-citizens/ex-PRs). Also, for PRs (not citizens) there is 11% tax withholding on distributions, including distributions in the form of life annuity payments, but the tax withholding is eventually refundable if you’re actually in a lower (or zero) tax bracket. That’s annoying, of course, but that’s how it goes.

I don’t recommend SRS unless and until you’ve exhausted Child Development Account (CDA) matching funds and CPF tax relief opportunities. Put your first dollars into those other two vehicles before considering SRS.

For U.S. persons, SRS is...”interesting.” You have to be very careful with it (to avoid PFIC complications), and I’m not convinced it’s such a great idea at all. Also, SRS can only provide Singapore tax benefits, when it does. If you live and/or retire overseas, that other country’s tax code almost certainly won’t grant SRS accounts any tax favors.
 
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final1

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how much is the lump sum?

this looks like a UL aka legacy .
similar to the ML heirloom.
but using leverage ..

There are some worked examples in the brochure. It doesnt appear to have a minimum amount you have to put.
Better to ask manulife for further details.
I didnt see a mention about leverage in the brochure? Maybe i missed it.

One example shows:
Pay $499,800 and get $18,214 per year ($1,517 per month) in income from 5th year onwards till 99 years old.
However, you can actually transfer the policy to your child before you die and she can continue to get the payment and so on (example stops at grandchild). Can it be done an infinite number of times so that your descendants will have an income forever? Unclear.

Example: One could get this policy at 30 years old and create an income for myself from 35 years old till 99 years old. However, whether or not that would be superior to a dividend portfolio of stocks is up for discussion.

BBCwatcher appears right it wouldn't qualify as a tool to seek CPF LIFE exemption although it is superior to CPF LIFE in some ways.
 
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BBCWatcher

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I really, really don't understand why you'd pick an age 99 term annuity when life annuities are available, including some with joint/survivor benefits. At least three insurance companies in Singapore sell life annuities: NTUC Income, Manulife, and Tokio Marine. The first two offer fully SRS qualified plans.
 

foozgarden

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Aviva's MRC can be set to pay until 99 as well.

Annuity that payout for life:
High networth single premium only - Manulife Signature Income.
Last time Tokio Marine Annuity quite popular, now Aviva's new Annuity plan MyLifeIncome win it in both guaranteed and non-guaranteed return.
NTUC annuity is quite popular as well among folks.

That's an interesting question!

Citizens and PRs can contribute $15,300/year into SRS -- and more for some period of time if they start as foreigners in Singapore. If they do that for 30 years (age 30 to 60, let's suppose), every year, then that's $459,000+ of contributions. Which could pretty easily result in a $600K+ SRS balance. At most you can withdraw $40K/year for 10 years tax free -- at most. (If you have other Singapore taxable income, such as rental income, then you could pay some tax on a SRS withdrawal.) The only way to bust through the 10 year withdrawal time limit for the most favorable SRS withdrawal tax rate is to buy a single premium life annuity. It's the one exception to the "10 year rule."

So, if you have this sort of happy problem -- a "too big" SRS account -- then a single premium life annuity from NTUC Income or Manulife could be a reasonable thing to do, for part of your SRS funds anyway.


No, that's just the number that the Monetary Authority of Singapore says that insurance companies can use as their maximum marketing number. It has absolutely no relation to any reality. Just ignore it, and focus only on the guaranteed part.

SRS shld typically be < 400k in total, in order not to get taxed.
assuming no other source of income.
but then again, not many pple (<1%) will be able to reach that amount anw.



Sure.

According to IRAS’s rules, once you start SRS drawdown at age 62 or later you have a maximum of 10 calendar years to draw it down. You can draw it down in any combination of cash or in-kind distributions, such as a transfer of shares of stock to another, regular account. As you take distributions you pay ordinary income tax rates on 50% of the distribution(s) for the calendar year. So if you have no other taxable income, you can make a withdrawal of up to S$40,000 per year tax free (in the 0% tax bracket). Half of $40,000 is $20,000, and that’s the maximum tax free taxable income in Singapore. These figures are calculated inclusive of the gains (accumulated interest, dividends, and capital gains).

You can pause withdrawals (cash and/or in-kind) once you start them, but the single 10 year clock continues to run. Once age 62+ withdrawals start, the 10 year clock starts, too. (And once you start withdrawing at age 62+, you can no longer contribute to your SRS.)

At the end of the 10th year, whether or not you actually withdraw the rest, the entire SRS balance is “deemed withdrawn.” You then pay income tax, at ordinary rates, on 50% of that deemed withdrawal. If that’s $200,000, then you pay income tax on $100,000 — and there is a substantial amount of income tax on that figure. So if you have a “big” SRS, you’re not going to be able to pull out everything in 10 years tax free. And if you have a trickle of other taxable income, such as rental income or a director’s fee or a consulting fee, this gets even harder.

There is ONE and only one exception to the 10 year rule: a single premium LIFE annuity. Not an annuity to age 99 (which is bizarre — why are we even talking about that? buy life!), not an annuity that requires multiple premium payments. (Although you can increase an annuity, or buy another life annuity, as long as it’s still a single premium.) And a life annuity lets you spread out the payments for life, which is hopefully 30+ years (age 62 to age 92+ for example).


No, you still pay tax, but if the life annuity payout is $40,000 per year or less, and if that’s your only taxable income, you would pay zero income tax in Singapore.

Of course, please double check all these rules, but that’s my understanding.

If the single premium life annuity offers decent or better value for money, then it could be a very reasonable thing to do if you have a “big” (or bigger) SRS and want to be as tax efficient as possible. The life annuity smooths out the withdrawals over a much longer period, helping you stay down into the 0% or at least lower tax brackets.

On the other hand, if you have a really big taxable income in retirement — you’re collecting consulting fees, enormous amounts of rental income, etc., etc. — and you’re in the top 22% tax bracket no matter what you do, then you might as well just yank everything out of your SRS in one shot and pay 11% (22% on 50% of the value of the withdrawal). I’m not describing very many people in this happy situation.

I’m assuming a citizen or PR in the above discussion. The rules are different again for foreigners in certain ways (and for certain ex-citizens/ex-PRs). Also, for PRs (not citizens) there is 11% tax withholding on distributions, including distributions in the form of life annuity payments, but the tax withholding is eventually refundable if you’re actually in a lower (or zero) tax bracket. That’s annoying, of course, but that’s how it goes.

I don’t recommend SRS unless and until you’ve exhausted Child Development Account (CDA) matching funds and CPF tax relief opportunities. Put your first dollars into those other two vehicles before considering SRS.

For U.S. persons, SRS is...”interesting.” You have to be very careful with it (to avoid PFIC complications), and I’m not convinced it’s such a great idea at all. Also, SRS can only provide Singapore tax benefits, when it does. If you live and/or retire overseas, that other country’s tax code almost certainly won’t grant SRS accounts any tax favors.
base on discussion
i think SRS seems to be "better" used to buy annuities.
(although this was not the intention of the topic at first)

just to be clear, i am not looking for annuity to replace CPF life.
but a complement to cpf life.

There are some worked examples in the brochure. It doesnt appear to have a minimum amount you have to put.
Better to ask manulife for further details.
I didnt see a mention about leverage in the brochure? Maybe i missed it.

One example shows:
Pay $499,800 and get $18,214 per year ($1,517 per month) in income from 5th year onwards till 99 years old.
However, you can actually transfer the policy to your child before you die and she can continue to get the payment and so on (example stops at grandchild). Can it be done an infinite number of times so that your descendants will have an income forever? Unclear.

Example: One could get this policy at 30 years old and create an income for myself from 35 years old till 99 years old. However, whether or not that would be superior to a dividend portfolio of stocks is up for discussion.

BBCwatcher appears right it wouldn't qualify as a tool to seek CPF LIFE exemption although it is superior to CPF LIFE in some ways.

sry, i meant, ML heirloom uses leverage. not the one you showed.
 
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foozgarden

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I really, really don't understand why you'd pick an age 99 term annuity when life annuities are available, including some with joint/survivor benefits. At least three insurance companies in Singapore sell life annuities: NTUC Income, Manulife, and Tokio Marine. The first two offer fully SRS qualified plans.

annuity, imho is a better proposition than term life.
 

foozgarden

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Aviva's MRC can be set to pay until 99 as well.

Annuity that payout for life:
High networth single premium only - Manulife Signature Income.
Last time Tokio Marine Annuity quite popular, now Aviva's new Annuity plan MyLifeIncome win it in both guaranteed and non-guaranteed return.
NTUC annuity is quite popular as well among folks.

i just noticed your siggy says IFA.

so basically, it whittles down to these 3 .
-TM
-Avivia
- NTUC

is there any SRS approved annuity that has escalating payout?
what is the earliest payout age? 55?
 

BlueRobin

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I really, really don't understand why you'd pick an age 99 term annuity when life annuities are available, including some with joint/survivor benefits. At least three insurance companies in Singapore sell life annuities: NTUC Income, Manulife, and Tokio Marine. The first two offer fully SRS qualified plans.

Assuming one already has CPF Life as the base.

A fixed term private annuity can be used to supplement CPF Life. This is because for the same amount of premium, the monthly/yearly pay out for private annuity is higher for fixed term, followed by up to 99 years old and then whole life.

If you follow the same strategy, staggered the private annuities such that when one expires, the other starts with adjusted amount for the next term.
 

final1

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An important difference for Signature Income is that you can start it at any age and get paid for the rest of your life assuming you do not live to older than 99.

This is unlike CPF LIFE which payouts currently at 65 years old with the payout age able to be changed at the government's discretion.
Other private annuities would start payout only at say, 55 years old (?) at the earliest?

For Signature Income, even if you do live past 99, you can transfer it to your child who will continue to receive the payments to 99.
Can transfer again after this? That was not clear in the brochure.

Let's say i am 30 years old now and i put down $1,000,000 in cash, I could get Signature Income and get paid $3,034 (just multiplied from the example ; which may or may not be right) per month till 99 years old after the 5th year.
Quit my job at 35, relax and enjoy life after that.
Or, you could continue to work and supplement your income with the $3,034 already being paid to you monthly. Just an example.

These are the differences between Signature Income and other conventional annuities.
 
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BBCWatcher

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BlueRobin said:
Assuming one already has CPF Life as the base.
Yes, that's highly desirable.

A fixed term private annuity can be used to supplement CPF Life.
Wouldn't a life annuity better supplement CPF LIFE? Otherwise you merely celebrate your 99th birthday...with black candles, because one of your annuities stops paying.

It's exactly backwards, really. Annuities work best to take you all the way to the end, and even better all the way to your survivor's (typically your spouse's) end, too. Since there's inflation in the world, you want that stream of foundational income to escalate, not to fall off a cliff at some point. All of that is to protect yourself and your survivor from outlasting savings. If it were "impossible" to outlast savings, then you wouldn't bother with annuities at all.

I don't understand this "logic." Am I getting surrounded by insurance sales agents here again, who happen not to represent NTUC Income, Tokio Marine, or Manulife but somebody else who doesn't offer a life annuity? ;)

This is because for the same amount of premium, the monthly/yearly pay out for private annuity is higher for fixed term, followed by up to 99 years old and then whole life.
I'm highly confident you'll discover that the age 99 annuities and life annuities are almost identical, other things being equal. The age 99 cut-off -- or AIA, with its age 100 cut-off -- is just a simple product defect in this case. And the government agrees with me, which is why nothing but a life annuity is fully SRS qualified.

If you follow the same strategy, staggered the private annuities such that when one expires, the other starts with adjusted amount for the next term.
Yes, you could do that I suppose, to work around the defects and shortcomings in bad insurance products, but that'd be complicated and expensive.

Like I said, why all the concern for suffering insurance companies here? There are three insurance companies in Singapore offering life annuities. Go find the best one of those, that's all. You don't have to buy an inferior product, and there's no sense in it.

This is unlike CPF LIFE which payouts currently at 65 years old with the payout age able to be changed at the government's discretion.
Or age 70, or anywhere in between. Indeed, if you're in reasonably good health or better, I recommend deferring to age 70 if you can afford it.

All the life annuities offer a choice of starting ages.

Other private annuities would start payout only at say, 55 years old (?) at the earliest?
Well, let's take a look....

Tokio Marine Retirement GIO: 55, 60, or 65
Tokio Marine Retirement PayCheck Life: 55, 60, or 65
NTUC Income Guaranteed Life Annuity: entry age 40 to before 85, can be immediate or deferred up to 20 years (except any deferral cannot be past age 65)
Manulife RetireReady Plus: 50, 55, 60, 65, or 70

The last two are fully SRS qualified, although if you're using SRS funds to buy NTUC's policy you need to start payouts at age 62 or later since those are the SRS rules. You can layer annuities if you wish, so you can use SRS funds for one annuity and non-SRS funds for another.

For Signature Income, even if you do live past 99, you can transfer it to your child who will continue to receive the payments to 99.
Definitely not to his/her age 99, not with the same payouts. Joint life annuities are available at least from Tokio Marine (didn't check the others).

Let's say i am 30 years old now and i put down $1,000,000 in cash, I could get Signature Income and get paid $3,034 (just multiplied from the example ; which may or may not be right) per month till 99 years old after the 5th year.
Quit my job at 35, relax and enjoy life after that. Just an example.
You could do that, but you don't actually need an annuity to bridge from age 30 to 40 (NTUC). The annuity works best (i.e. is best value for money) when focused on the part you don't control (the risk), which is life expectancy/savings exhaustion, and inflation. Those are the out years, not the in years.
 
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final1

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Definitely not to his/her age 99, not with the same payouts. Joint life annuities are available at least from Tokio Marine (didn't check the others).

What the brochure says is that the child gets the annuity payment for his or her entire life. It did not say how long entire life is. I would assume 99.
Furthermore, the grandchild will receive a lump sum upon the death of the child.
 

tangent314

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One example shows:
Pay $499,800 and get $18,214 per year ($1,517 per month) in income from 5th year onwards till 99 years old.


It looks like you are getting ~3.12% interest on this plan.
$499800 accumulated for 5 years at 3.12% interest becomes $582788, and the 3.12% annual interest gives you ~$18182
 
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