private annuities

Mecisteus

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Lewis, let's just cut it short.

I'm neutral because I am neither selling insurances nor shorting insurance companies shares. I said an annuity is a bad product.

You are in the insurance line. What else can we expect you say about your own products?

If you think you cannot accept it, go and bark somewhere else.

PS: Edit because someone is not clear.
 
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Lewis.T

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Lewis, let's just cut it short.

I'm neutral. I said an annuity is a bad product.

You are in the insurance line. What else can we expect you say about your own products?

If you think you cannot accept it, go and bark somewhere else.

You're neutral, but you said an annuity is a bad product. K. I finally understand your logic; or the lack of thereof.

Bad product meaning no plus sides to it that a person should consider when getting an annuity?

You know that saying you're neutral doesn't mean your views are neutral right?

You can have a biased view even if you do not have an affiliation with said product, and the reverse is also true.

I'm all for talking about the pros and cons of an annuity but it seems that isn't what you want, but it's alright I understand now. Thanks for your time.

Edit: Just to educate you a little, check out this wiki page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
All you seem to have been doing is attacking my profession/affiliation with insurance instead of the arguments (which in my opinion are very valid and easily echoed by doing a google search on why you should consider an annuity).

Quoting myself for your convenience again, one of the pros of an annuity include but are not limited to

The most important I feel is the lack of monitoring. There is absolutely no need (unless you're curious) to check up on the fund.

This also means that you can be disconnected and enjoy your retirement years. You do not have to be monitoring your bond/investment and doing trades. And in turn, this protects you in the case your mind doesn't function as well as before, which in turn protects your sum of money.

That being said, there are pros and cons to strategies an individual would like to adopt. Finance isn't a science where you can say ok put 20% here and 40% there etc, it's more of an art. Different strokes for different folks. The pros and cons have a different weightage for every individual, and that is why people handle their finances differently.

I'm not listing the cons here, because that should be YOUR argumentative statement, as you are in the invest on your own train of thought. I don't see you listing the cons of your bond ladder argument for example. (In case you want to attack my motive again on why I don't list the cons). I was hoping when the discussion we had progressed, I could list both the pros and cons of the annuity line of thought vs invest on your own, but sadly we didn't get there. Not yet at least.
 
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Lewis.T

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Nice! One step in the right direction. I present you with this
https://www.thebalance.com/are-annuities-a-good-investment-2389015
Considering this, there is one thing an annuity does well, which is to provide a hedge against longevity risk (the risk of living far longer than you thought you would), and if you are buying it for that reason, an annuity can be a good investment.

Is this all we are going to do? Present googled articles? I'd rather have YOUR input on why you find an annuity bad, or why a bond ladder is more suitable. And I present you with my own views on why an annuity could be a better solution.
 

Lewis.T

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Also, in your article, this is presented

If you’re unfamiliar with annuities — you give an insurance company your money and in return they pay you an income stream, usually for the rest of your life. In some annuities, if you die before you’ve received all of your money back, too bad for you. The insurance company keeps the money.

Seriously, that’s how it works.

This is not true, most annuities (at least here in SG) have a death benefit of more than the amount you have put into the annuity.

Your source is not worthy. Perhaps try another source?

Edit: Read the comments of the article you posted as well, not a good source at all to put forth as an argument towards your cause.

I'd also like to elaborate on something stated in that article. You're not gambling by buying an annuity hoping that you'll live a long life. You are hedging against the risk of a long life. You're doing the exact opposite of gambling.
 
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tangent314

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I do agree that there is very little value in fixed term annuity products from insurance companies because fixed term annuities are very easy to DIY. If you need an annuity to bridge you over for 20 years between the age of 50 and 70, you can easily plan a drawdown strategy with DIY investments that will just nice let you hit $0 once you reach age 70 to start your CPF Life withdrawals.

Life annuity, however, cannot be DIYed because there is a requirement for actuarial science and pooling. In this case, assuming you have already used up any CPF Life entitlements, then it make sense to purchase a life annuity product from an insurance company if you need one.
 

Mecisteus

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Death benefits + Lifelong Annuity

That means the insurance costs have to add up.

No brainer. There is no free lunch.

In Singapore context, nobody will ever buy a pure longevity insurance without death benefits.

Any insurance products that have cashbacks, rebates or cash values are all likely to sell well in Singapore.

Pure term insurances are perceived as "bad" products because one won't get back the premiums at end of term.
 

soaresb

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I do agree that there is very little value in fixed term annuity products from insurance companies because fixed term annuities are very easy to DIY. If you need an annuity to bridge you over for 20 years between the age of 50 and 70, you can easily plan a drawdown strategy with DIY investments that will just nice let you hit $0 once you reach age 70 to start your CPF Life withdrawals.

Life annuity, however, cannot be DIYed because there is a requirement for actuarial science and pooling. In this case, assuming you have already used up any CPF Life entitlements, then it make sense to purchase a life annuity product from an insurance company if you need one.

Fixed term annuity is more like a savings product, so not exactly comparable to a true insurance product such as a lifelong annuity.

Anyway, all insurance is about trading the uncertainty of a big/catastrophic loss for the certainty of a small loss (your premium costs). It boils down to a matter of personal preference.
 

Lewis.T

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Death benefits + Lifelong Annuity

That means the insurance costs have to add up.

No brainer. There is no free lunch.

In Singapore context, nobody will ever buy a pure longevity insurance without death benefits.

Any insurance products that have cashbacks, rebates or cash values are all likely to sell well in Singapore.

Pure term insurances are perceived as "bad" products because one won't get back the premiums at end of term.

That is correct, investing on your own also has its own costs, which in today's climate is relatively low. This is not to say things won't change in the future but I'm hopeful it'll stay low.

I would like to add once again that different people have different views of things. Some prefer the cashback, some prefer higher interest. Some don't like the uncertainty of investing on your own and would rather leave it to someone else. Some prefer term insurances, some prefer whole life. Who is the say who is wrong? They all have their valid views.

However, you can argue for your point as follows -
An annuity is bad because there is a high upfront cost.
An annuity is bad because the surrender value is likely to be much lower than the invested amount especially when the plan is near inception.
An annuity is bad because you have little to no control over how your funds are being managed.

And on the other side,
Investing on your own is bad especially during your later years where costs become unknown and markets could be volatile.
Investing on your own is bad because there is a higher element of risk from liquidating your assets to fund vices.
Investing on your own is bad because when you're older you might not make the same sound financial decision as you can now.

There are lots of things to consider, but the important thing to take away is that no strategy is inherently bad (talking about legitimate products/strategy and not scams). It all boils down to preference.
 

ELKYme

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I’m sure everybody is aware that CPF life provides the best bang for the buck when it comes to annuities. For individuals that does not intend to go for ERS, no point even considering private annuities from other providers.

I’ve listed down what I think are the pros and cons of annuities, feel free to add-on to the points or correct me if my views are incorrect, however it’ll be much appreciated if it can be done in a cordial and constructive manner.

Pros:
1) Hands-off approach for the policy holder.
2) Lifetime income which protects against longevity.
3) Predictability, having a predicable retirement income is certainly re-assuring.
4) Value of the annuity is guaranteed to be at or above the amount invested. (For the policy-holder or heirs)

Cons:
1) Annuities are essentially a front-end loading insurance policy (>5%). That’s how agents get paid first.
2) Annuities have significant expenses that reduces the growth of your investment compared to doing your own investing. Coys offering annuities are also using the funds to put into roughly the same investment vehicles many of us in MM are already doing. (ETFs,Bonds,Commodities).
3) Annuities also have surrender charges on early withdrawals that can limit access to your money in the first few years after you buy the annuity.

In summery, different strokes for different folks and my humble opinion:
1) If can afford it why not?
2) If have interest and time to monitor and fine-tune your investments, why buy?
 

soaresb

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I’m sure everybody is aware that CPF life provides the best bang for the buck when it comes to annuities. For individuals that does not intend to go for ERS, no point even considering private annuities from other providers.

I’ve listed down what I think are the pros and cons of annuities, feel free to add-on to the points or correct me if my views are incorrect, however it’ll be much appreciated if it can be done in a cordial and constructive manner.

Pros:
1) Hands-off approach for the policy holder.
2) Lifetime income which protects against longevity.
3) Predictability, having a predicable retirement income is certainly re-assuring.
4) Value of the annuity is guaranteed to be at or above the amount invested. (For the policy-holder or heirs)

Cons:
1) Annuities are essentially a front-end loading insurance policy (>5%). That’s how agents get paid first.
2) Annuities have significant expenses that reduces the growth of your investment compared to doing your own investing. Coys offering annuities are also using the funds to put into roughly the same investment vehicles many of us in MM are already doing. (ETFs,Bonds,Commodities).
3) Annuities also have surrender charges on early withdrawals that can limit access to your money in the first few years after you buy the annuity.

In summery, different strokes for different folks and my humble opinion:
1) If can afford it why not?
2) If have interest and time to monitor and fine-tune your investments, why buy?

Just like to point out that item 4 under pros cannot be true right? Annuities, like any other insurance, works on the basis of risk pooling. Risk pool participants with worse outcomes (longer lives in the annuity case) are financially compensated by participants with better outcomes (those with shorter lives).
 

ELKYme

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tangent314

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In Singapore context, nobody will ever buy a pure longevity insurance without death benefits.

Any insurance products that have cashbacks, rebates or cash values are all likely to sell well in Singapore.

Pure term insurances are perceived as "bad" products because one won't get back the premiums at end of term.


Typical Singaporean kiasuism has allowed insurance agents to exploit them for many decades to make a lot of money
 

Lewis.T

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Just like to point out that item 4 under pros cannot be true right? Annuities, like any other insurance, works on the basis of risk pooling. Risk pool participants with worse outcomes (longer lives in the annuity case) are financially compensated by participants with better outcomes (those with shorter lives).

That's not quite the case. An annuity gives you guaranteed and non guaranteed payouts on top of having a principle guaranteed amount. The principle amount could be 80% of the original sum that went into the annuity for example.

The insurer has to meet the guaranteed payouts. If the insurer cannot and goes under, the Policy Owner's Protection Scheme kicks in.

https://www.sdic.org.sg/SDIC/apps/services/www/SDICSecureApp/desktopbrowser/default/faq/pp_faq said:
A: In the event a Scheme member fails, MAS will decide whether to activate the PPF Fund and whether the PPF Fund would be applied in termination or transfer or run-off of the business of the failed insurer. MAS will then request the Singapore Deposit Insurance Corporation (SDIC) to step in. Accordingly, SDIC will make announcements to all policy owners of that PPF Scheme member through the media and provide the details on how their policies would be affected.

Specifically,

16. Are annuities covered by policy owners' protection and are they subject to caps?
A: Yes, individual annuities and voluntary group annuities, whether deferred or immediate, are covered and are subject to an aggregate cap of S$100,000 on the total commuted value of the annuities, on a per life assured per insurer basis. Non-voluntary group annuities are also covered and subject to a separate cap of S$100,000 on the commuted value per policy per insurer. Only the guaranteed benefits of annuities are covered. In determining commuted value, all the future guaranteed benefit payments (be it annuity payments, death or surrender benefits) are converted into a single lump-sum present value.

This is talking about private annuities of course. CPF Life works differently, whereby none of the amount is guaranteed and the bequest is lower than a private annuity, hence, amongst other factors, they can give you a better monthly payout.
 

soaresb

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Pretty good info here:

https://www.interestguru.sg/3-best-...guaranteed-principal-withdrawal-2019-edition/

Disclaimer: I’m not an Insurance Agent.

Thanks.

Looking at the rates offered, the annuity portion are probably only a minor component in the bundle. Assuming 5% annuity rates (cpf life is about 7% if I recall right), a guaranteed lifetime payout of 1.75% suggest that at most 35% of the premium are given to the annuity while the rest are given over to the whole life/savings portion. I can't tell if these are good deals compared with buying whole life/savings + annuity separately, but given the scarcity of pure annuities in Singapore, such an exercise would necessarily involve quite an amount of guesswork.
 
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soaresb

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That's not quite the case. An annuity gives you guaranteed and non guaranteed payouts on top of having a principle guaranteed amount. The principle amount could be 80% of the original sum that went into the annuity for example.

The insurer has to meet the guaranteed payouts. If the insurer cannot and goes under, the Policy Owner's Protection Scheme kicks in.



Specifically,



This is talking about private annuities of course. CPF Life works differently, whereby none of the amount is guaranteed and the bequest is lower than a private annuity, hence, amongst other factors, they can give you a better monthly payout.

Good info, and good to know sdic has considered this aspect.

Nonetheless, it doesn't contradict that not all persons will get back what they put in, even if we disregard insurers overhead and other such loading.
 

BBCWatcher

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I said an annuity is a bad product.
Yes, and that's wrong. Longevity insurance is a useful product to combat longevity risk in particular circumstances.

We know Lewis.T represents Prudential because he told us that. And so what? If you disagree with somebody, stick to facts and logic to make your counterargument. As it happens, Prudential doesn't offer any life annuities in Singapore.
 

Mecisteus

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Yes, and that's wrong. Longevity insurance is a useful product to combat longevity risk in particular circumstances.

We know Lewis.T represents Prudential because he told us that. And so what? If you disagree with somebody, stick to facts and logic to make your counterargument. As it happens, Prudential doesn't offer any life annuities in Singapore.

Too bad you can't see the logic.

Prudential doesn't sell disability income insurance too.

If a client asks if it's a good plan to have, what do you think is the natural response?

Do you think it's professional to tell clients that the product is lousy?
 

limster

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Just like to point out that item 4 under pros cannot be true right? Annuities, like any other insurance, works on the basis of risk pooling. Risk pool participants with worse outcomes (longer lives in the annuity case) are financially compensated by participants with better outcomes (those with shorter lives).

thats a good point.

I'm also wondering, if everyone lives longer lives than anticipated by the actuaries, then the fund will run out of money?

So either the actuaries have to project for a very long life expectancy, eg: 92 (i.e. die before 92 and you lose money - and your money is used to pay those who live past 92), or risk the fund running out of money?
 

soaresb

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thats a good point.

I'm also wondering, if everyone lives longer lives than anticipated by the actuaries, then the fund will run out of money?

So either the actuaries have to project for a very long life expectancy, eg: 92 (i.e. die before 92 and you lose money - and your money is used to pay those who live past 92), or risk the fund running out of money?

If the actuaries get it wrong, then the money will first come out from the insurance company shareholders' profits and capital, and the government will probably cobble together some form of bail out if it really impacts a lot of people.

But I don't think actuaries will get it so badly wrong. Mortality tables have been compiled for years, so estimates can be made quite accurately. Insurance companies will build a good buffer in their pricing, so long as the competitive environment permits. The problem comes when competitive pressures cause insurance companies to "underprice", then trying make up for it through investment surplus, which doesn't always work, or when fierce competition results in smaller insurance companies lacking the scale to properly smooth out the risk.

Cpf life, being mandatory for most Singaporean, will therefore always win out on the second front vs any private insurer in Singapore. Question is how conservative cpf is in setting their buffer. The more conservative cpf is, the less the risk of the whole fund running out of money, but also the less participants will get back as a whole. I think cpf is probably very conservative, hence the sense in most of us that cpf life is not a good deal as a retirement savings/investment scheme. But cpf life is always about longevity insurance (and reducing the risk to government of that some people will live too long, run out of saving, and thereby require government intervention), quite different from the other parts of cpf which are focused on savings and investments.
 
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