Property vs Leveraged REIT?

soneat

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2000
Messages
1,891
Reaction score
322
Singapore REITs are tax transparent under s43.
Income from REITs to individuals are tax exempt under s13.

On the other hand, property rental is taxable under s10.

I think at least in SGP REITs are extremely tax efficient.


So far for as long as I remember....from early 2000, when held as individual, dividends from reits, business trusts or stapled securities (such as aht, cdlht) are exempted from personal income tax.

Property on the other hand, apart from property tax, the rental income will also form part of individual's income tax assessment.
 
Last edited:

BBCWatcher

Arch-Supremacy Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
23,010
Reaction score
4,536
Wasn't there different tax treatment for Singapore REIT index funds up until fairly recently? Assuming I'm correct, you then would have to compare the costs of investing in a basket of Singapore REITs versus buying a STI fund (such as ES3). The latter has lower trading costs and a modest management fee, while the former has higher trading costs with wider bid-ask spreads (because they're individual REITs purchased/dividend reinvested individually).

Unfortunately this particular analysis is a little more complicated than just looking at the indices. Nobody can actually invest in the indices. It'd be nice if there were two real index funds we could compare that have been both running for 20 years and that have been treated exactly the same way in terms of tax, but that's not Singapore's actual financial history.

Even though financial history won't predict future results, it's still interesting (as an academic exercise if nothing else) to understand what really happened in the past.

I think there were also dividend taxes in Singapore through the end of 2007. If we're looking at financial history before 2008, we'd also need to take that factor into account. In particular, it's likely that REITs were higher dividend payers (on average) but lower capital gains, whereas the STI was the reverse (lower dividends, greater emphasis on capital gains). The dividend tax would have skewed that comparison on an after cost basis.
 
Last edited:

pmstudent

Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Messages
129
Reaction score
0
Wasn't there different tax treatment for Singapore REIT index funds up until fairly recently? Assuming I'm correct, you then would have to compare the costs of investing in a basket of Singapore REITs versus buying a STI fund (such as ES3). The latter has lower trading costs and a modest management fee, while the former has higher trading costs with wider bid-ask spreads (because they're individual REITs purchased/dividend reinvested individually).

Unfortunately this particular analysis is a little more complicated than just looking at the indices. Nobody can actually invest in the indices. It'd be nice if there were two real index funds we could compare that have been both running for 20 years and that have been treated exactly the same way in terms of tax, but that's not Singapore's actual financial history.

Even though financial history won't predict future results, it's still interesting (as an academic exercise if nothing else) to understand what really happened in the past.

I think there were also dividend taxes in Singapore through the end of 2007. If we're looking at financial history before 2008, we'd also need to take that factor into account. In particular, it's likely that REITs were higher dividend payers (on average) but lower capital gains, whereas the STI was the reverse (lower dividends, greater emphasis on capital gains). The dividend tax would have skewed that comparison on an after cost basis.

If studying the historical performance is just to understand the performance of different asset class, rather than predicting the future, then pure indices will do the job, and you should use the current condition (i.e tax free), rather the the super old tax policy.

I won't recommend to buy SREIT ETF, because why paying expense ration for an ETF that holds 20 REITs ? and have unnecessary internal turnover to track an index, that indirectly increase the expense ratio. You just need three families of REITs - Mapletree, Capitaland, Ascendas, DCA and hold for the long term.

If there is anything to be learnt from this data, is nobody should dismiss REIT as a sub-optimal asset class. I brought this up because you and ST, seems to brush away whenever people intend to have a holding in SREIT, while it is historically better than the STI by a far distance.
 

K|muRa^84

High Supremacy Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2007
Messages
36,811
Reaction score
6
Any thoughts on capland’s proposed acquisition of ascendas-singbridge?
 

BBCWatcher

Arch-Supremacy Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
23,010
Reaction score
4,536
If studying the historical performance is just to understand the performance of different asset class, rather than predicting the future, then pure indices will do the job, and you should use the current condition (i.e tax free), rather the the super old tax policy.
No, I disagree. The U.S. municipal bond example is instructive.

You just need three families of REITs - Mapletree, Capitaland, Ascendas, DCA and hold for the long term.
That's quite risky, though. You lose, perhaps big, if even one REIT has solvency issues, if Singapore stagnates or declines, or if real estate stagnates or declines. And your equity in your owner-occupied home isn't a hedge against such risks; it's doubling down on them.

Diversification is helpful.

If there is anything to be learnt from this data, is nobody should dismiss REIT as a sub-optimal asset class. I brought this up because you and ST, seems to brush away whenever people intend to have a holding in SREIT, while it is historically better than the STI by a far distance.
We don't actually know whether SREITs have outperformed SGX-listed equities on a historical basis. There are necessary calculation adjustments still required to figure that out.

I'm frequently concerned when somebody overweights practically anything within a portfolio. In Singapore it tends to be real estate since that's the most common such local affliction. But if you're overweighting Eastern European beer stocks, I'd have exactly the same reaction.

I don't actually have a particularly strong view on real estate as such, except that I don't see how that sector grows much faster than the rest of the economy over the long term unless there's some disruptive technological breakthrough. There have been a couple such breakthroughs over the course of history, such as elevators and steel framing (skyscrapers), so who knows. Regardless, diversification is helpful.

That said, I have issues/problems with overweighting SGX-listed stocks, too. I've explained this a few times already.
 
Last edited:

pmstudent

Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Messages
129
Reaction score
0
No, I disagree. The U.S. municipal bond example is instructive.


That's quite risky, though. You lose, perhaps big, if even one REIT has solvency issues, if Singapore stagnates or declines, or if real estate stagnates or declines. And your equity in your owner-occupied home isn't a hedge against such risks; it's doubling down on them.

Diversification is helpful.


We don't actually know whether SREITs have outperformed SGX-listed equities on a historical basis. There are necessary calculation adjustments still required to figure that out.

I'm frequently concerned when somebody overweights practically anything within a portfolio. In Singapore it tends to be real estate since that's the most common such local affliction. But if you're overweighting Eastern European beer stocks, I'd have exactly the same reaction.

I don't actually have a particularly strong view on real estate as such, except that I don't see how that sector grows much faster than the rest of the economy over the long term unless there's some disruptive technological breakthrough. There have been a couple such breakthroughs over the course of history, such as elevators and steel framing (skyscrapers), so who knows. Regardless, diversification is helpful.

I agreed wholeheartedly that diversification is super important, I have global index as core holding, in line of the school of Bogle, Ben Graham, Malkiel.
Btw, the 3 families of biggest caps - Mapletree, Capitaland and Ascendas have in total 9 REITS, diversified in different sectors and different geography, I wouldn't worry about the concentration.
 

SpeedingBullet

High Supremacy Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2004
Messages
38,543
Reaction score
1,359
Wasn't there different tax treatment for Singapore REIT index funds up until fairly recently? Assuming I'm correct, you then would have to compare the costs of investing in a basket of Singapore REITs versus buying a STI fund (such as ES3). The latter has lower trading costs and a modest management fee, while the former has higher trading costs with wider bid-ask spreads (because they're individual REITs purchased/dividend reinvested individually).

Unfortunately this particular analysis is a little more complicated than just looking at the indices. Nobody can actually invest in the indices. It'd be nice if there were two real index funds we could compare that have been both running for 20 years and that have been treated exactly the same way in terms of tax, but that's not Singapore's actual financial history.

Even though financial history won't predict future results, it's still interesting (as an academic exercise if nothing else) to understand what really happened in the past.

I think there were also dividend taxes in Singapore through the end of 2007. If we're looking at financial history before 2008, we'd also need to take that factor into account. In particular, it's likely that REITs were higher dividend payers (on average) but lower capital gains, whereas the STI was the reverse (lower dividends, greater emphasis on capital gains). The dividend tax would have skewed that comparison on an after cost basis.

Hmm then that would make a big difference, let me try and find out.
 

SpeedingBullet

High Supremacy Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2004
Messages
38,543
Reaction score
1,359
Hmm then that would make a big difference, let me try and find out.

Asked a colleague for info on this, this is the reply:

Singapore never had tax on dividends payment. I do not know when it started but before the one-tier system (bef 1 Jan 08), dividends need to be franked before they can be distributed, ie. to declare dividends, corporate taxes need to be paid first.
 

peipei1

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2017
Messages
1,160
Reaction score
1
Will the growth of online shopping affect sgreits in the next decade? Retail reits go down because store costs are harder to maintain but industrial reits to go up as they get converted to warehouses for online stores?
 

BBCWatcher

Arch-Supremacy Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
23,010
Reaction score
4,536
Will the growth of online shopping affect sgreits in the next decade?
Probably.

Retail reits go down because store costs are harder to maintain but industrial reits to go up as they get converted to warehouses for online stores?
The latter is unlikely. That warehouse space already exists in order to supply the current traditional “bricks and mortar” retail segment. What seems more likely is a steady shift from less efficient retail warehousing and distribution to more efficient warehousing and distribution.
 

dloreangel

Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2009
Messages
177
Reaction score
0
heh, revisiting this thread in 2020 after covid gave us a few weeks of covid circuit breaker.

with developers discounting new launches, and resale prices... actually I'm not sure if prices are sticky or already dropped.

REITS dropped but bounced back recently. =:p
 
Important Forum Advisory Note
This forum is moderated by volunteer moderators who will react only to members' feedback on posts. Moderators are not employees or representatives of HWZ. Forum members and moderators are responsible for their own posts.

Please refer to our Community Guidelines and Standards, Terms of Service and Member T&Cs for more information.
Top