Proposal Ring - Part 2

[hollander]

Thanks Bro Eric for sharing i agreed. Unless its the luxury brands that we are looking at, otherwise it's almost the same. I think for us guys we are very much into the specs, for the ladies it's really about their feel, preferences (like bigger diamonds, design of the settings, how sparkle it is) haha (not generalising here ok!)After looking around, I think I might sacrifice abit of the clarity, and maybe go for colour and size. Clarity does not affect the brilliance of the diamond right? What u all think about 0.35 E VS2 n 0.45 E VS2? The cut is the same for both but, due to the size the diff is 600. Of cos if I compare side by side I can see the diff. If separate, unlikely u can notice much.

Nothing to be worried for an E VS2, its a very nice Color and Clarity.
I will go for the .45 E VS2 if 600 is not much of a concern.

 

[Grizz.P]

Thanks Bro Eric for sharing i agreed. Unless its the luxury brands that we are looking at, otherwise it's almost the same. I think for us guys we are very much into the specs, for the ladies it's really about their feel, preferences (like bigger diamonds, design of the settings, how sparkle it is) haha (not generalising here ok!)After looking around, I think I might sacrifice abit of the clarity, and maybe go for colour and size. Clarity does not affect the brilliance of the diamond right? What u all think about 0.35 E VS2 n 0.45 E VS2? The cut is the same for both but, due to the size the diff is 600. Of cos if I compare side by side I can see the diff. If separate, unlikely u can notice much.

If 600 is not a big deal, I'll upgrade to the 0.45.. Saves you from future upgrades too. Lol
If you can't see the inclusions, the VS2 clarity won't affect the brilliance.

 

[EricMagnusLensherr]

Thanks Bro Eric for sharing i agreed. Unless its the luxury brands that we are looking at, otherwise it's almost the same. I think for us guys we are very much into the specs, for the ladies it's really about their feel, preferences (like bigger diamonds, design of the settings, how sparkle it is) haha (not generalising here ok!)After looking around, I think I might sacrifice abit of the clarity, and maybe go for colour and size. Clarity does not affect the brilliance of the diamond right? What u all think about 0.35 E VS2 n 0.45 E VS2? The cut is the same for both but, due to the size the diff is 600. Of cos if I compare side by side I can see the diff. If separate, unlikely u can notice much.

No problem if you want to maximise value I think the 0.45 is good. Cos 0.5 is a price jump point. Meaning there will be a relatively significant price difference between 0.49 and 0.50, so getting as close to 0.50 as possible to maximise value makes sense.

As bro Hollander and Grizz mentioned, shouldn't be an issue with the clarity, and if cost not much of an issue bigger would most definitely be a good thing.

Lastly, most retail shops don't carry many intermediate sizes past point 0.5. Meaning you are unlikely to find a 0.59, or 0.6 etc. They will usually be 0.5 + abit at most, then next size range would be 0.7 + abit, as 0.7 is the next price jump point. No idea why they only carry close to price jump points size as it definitely doesn't help customers maximise value. I'm sure many value minded bros like myself would love sizes closer to the price jump points like 0.49 or 0.69 to value to maximise size for price ratio. hahaha

This also means that if her friends buy retail, if its bigger its going to be around 0.5 which costs a fair bit more yet is only very slightly bigger then hers or 0.7 which again you definitely don't need to worry cos its an altogether diff price range

 

[jxyang888]

Lastly, most retail shops don't carry many intermediate sizes past point 0.5. Meaning you are unlikely to find a 0.59, or 0.6 etc. They will usually be 0.5 + abit at most, then next size range would be 0.7 + abit, as 0.7 is the next price jump point. No idea why they only carry close to price jump points size as it definitely doesn't help customers maximise value. I'm sure many value minded bros like myself would love sizes closer to the price jump points like 0.49 or 0.69 to value to maximise size for price ratio. hahaha

This also means that if her friends buy retail, if its bigger its going to be around 0.5 which costs a fair bit more yet is only very slightly bigger then hers or 0.7 which again you definitely don't need to worry cos its an altogether diff price range

I was thinking about the 0.45 one too. Maybe i will check if they have diamond close to 0.5 Anyway bro Eric, do u mean since the major retailers out there carry 0.5+ abit, so as comparison 0.45 or even 0.49 is more maximising in terms of value? And since they don't carry 0.59 or 0.6+, it will be hard to compare with next price jump point which is 0.7?

 

[jxyang888]

Nothing to be worried for an E VS2, its a very nice Color and Clarity.
I will go for the .45 E VS2 if 600 is not much of a concern.

thanks hollander will consider this, still within budget haha

 

[jxyang888]

If 600 is not a big deal, I'll upgrade to the 0.45.. Saves you from future upgrades too. Lol
If you can't see the inclusions, the VS2 clarity won't affect the brilliance.

hi grizz
I can't really see the inclusions and I was told it new at least 10x magnification to see it

 

[Draculav]

I agree with your statement. The issue is that they cannot keep it consistent. Why is it that IGI Antwerp can produce stricter grading ? It might boil down to the history of the place and its relationship with cutting as well as the demand of customers in that area, as well as the fact that it is the headquarters. Is it disturbing ? Maybe, if you don't know about it, but if you DO know, this is an opportunity to get something better for cheaper, due to the misconception that all IGI grading is the same.

Another reason they can't keep it consistent is cos it is graded by a human, even GIA is just MORE consistent, and does not guarantee a stone which is resubmitted will get the same grade, its is written in the disclaimer in the cert itself. One of the reason people go to AGS and GIA is a higher consistency.

Your analogy of Tiffany is not correct... The shops in different places sell the same item in different places, but chances are they are produced in the same place... Just like you buy a Toshiba or Fujitsu laptop you can pay an additional $1000 to get the exact same model but made in japan. If everything under a brand is the same and i offer you 2 cars, same brand same model, one made in Germany and one made in China, the china one $10.00 cheaper, which would you choose ? After all, according to you, same brand same quality.

Lastly, i never said EGL is good.... i only said those by the HK Lab is good, big difference. EGL probably has the largest inconsistancy between labs.



This is unfortunately true and if you intend to resell, your diamond with a GIA or AGS cert WILL retain value better, so i agree with you here. As to why it is lower price, it would be due to lower denmand, due to misinformation. I wonder why... just kidding. But its better for those of us in the know as we can find better stones for lower prices as long as you know what to look out for.



Yep, i have read this article and for most part agree with it given the context. You realize that pricescope is a FOR-profit site based in the US and that is the context and the labs they will send to right ? It specifically says there EGL-USA. Also, the article is from 2004... There was a more recent one posted some months back on the forums, let me see if i can find it as it would be a better reference.

I would also like to ask you, if you have with your own eyes, done a blind test between super ideals from different labs graded the same in terms of color and clarity ? Because what i speak of is not only from reading but also from experience. It might simply be coincidence that what i saw just happened to present the information to me this way. Unfortunately i no longer have access to the IGI stones or i would invite you to do a blind test.

If you wish to quote pricescope, here are some recent forum threads (1 from 2011, 1 from 2012, 1 from 2013) about IGI. Trade members hold IGI in pretty high regard, Also when referring to labs they usually refer to the place or branch as well, such as EGL-International. There are of course many others, but i think this should be enough. Yeah, i enjoy participating and reading pricescope forums and check there everyday as well. Good place to learn and pic up more, but you should take note of the limitations, culture and the context of the information provided as well, and not just take it blindly as information by non trade members tend to be a bit wonky sometimes.

Here's my return quote by one of the most respected trade members John Pollard. Also, seems EGL-Asia, which is the Hong Kong branch is out of China cos people nowadays prefer foreign certs. They instead franchise their name to someone else. Will try to check out these stones graded by a third party if i get the chance. And now, IGI HK has taken their place as the lab to go to for top notch cut quality grading



And in case you still doubt that there are different standards in consistency, couple the fact that IGI is the preferred grader for H&A and the following comment.



It is also is one of the reason why I used to look at many H&A locally and nitpic... Some H&A i have seen locally and even of those posted here would not qualify, but there are of course some which are truly good as well. But these days I have come to accept that different places different grading/expectations and this is simply the level/range which is accepted as H&A in Singapore, and more importantly, available here.

This is also why I say the location of the lab/branch and its target market and their expectations has an influence on the strictness and consistency of the certs and grading.

IGI grading system : RockyTalky • Diamond Jewelry Forum - Compare Diamond Prices, Discussions & Diamond Information
IGI vs GIA : RockyTalky • Diamond Jewelry Forum - Compare Diamond Prices, Discussions & Diamond Information
Any Qs/Interest in 2013 Chinese Diamond Market & Traditions? : RockyTalky • Diamond Jewelry Forum - Compare Diamond Prices, Discussions & Diamond Information


UPDATE :

Found the latest comparison, June 2013, now EGL Swapped... EGL - USA up and EGL - HK down... hahaha. IGI is now graded pretty high, practically on par with GIA, sadly AGS not in the list. As it stands, I retract my statement about EGL-HK, no need to consider liao. Maybe they secretly send the diamonds to the shanghai lab. LOL. BUT IGI still good. Definitely worthy of consideration, too bad they never state which location/branch they send to

Lastly, as can been seen and commented in the article as well, IGI is practically as good as GIA, yet their cert commands the second lowest price... Isn't this great for consumers that know this and know how to choose their diamonds ? Also, i doubt they sent it to the Antwerp branch, so if you can get one from there it would be even better, esp those I saw which were graded more strictly then even GIA would have graded them.

Diamonds.net - Grading the Graders
Newsflash: Grading labs are not all the same. : RockyTalky • Diamond Jewelry Forum - Compare Diamond Prices, Discussions & Diamond Information

Ok.. I opened your links. There is not a strong consensus that IGI is as good as GIA. I can pick out all the points in each link, but this can go on all day.

I'll use one of your link as an example (I found this link most interesting).
Newsflash: Grading labs are not all the same. : RockyTalky • Diamond Jewelry Forum - Compare Diamond Prices, Discussions & Diamond Information

Essentially, there are some agreements that IGI is an ok lab, where there are some disagreements as well. You can't just paste links to say your points are all correct where there there are disagreements in your links!
P.S. I never mentioned that my views are from what an SA told me. My points are merely all over the internet. I hope you don't put words in my mouth and treat this personally. I'm only sharing my thoughts, which happens to be a disagreement with yours. I find it misleading for consumers to think that IGI is the same as GIA and they deserve to know what they are getting.

The study uses an extremely small sample size, and may not be accurate.
Diamonds can be sent to several labs and can be graded several times. The certificate with the grade that is most effective to the person's purpose will be used as the selling cert.
"The game of using this kind of data as a way of creating a conversion chart as a consumer to locate bargains is fundamentally flawed because of the presence of people upstream who can and will resubmit a stone to a different lab if they think it'll make more money with a different pedigree. There is no clue if a stone has been graded several times after all. 'Correctly' graded stones from EGLI never make it to market. They get sent somewhere else and get re-papered. This means that the margin for stones in the marketplace is actually MORE than what is seen with this sort of study."

Another comment about these test that can be skewed and "game the system", to trick unsuspected consumers.
"What concerns me the most about "tests" such as these is that it gives consumers an idea, which sounds quite reasonable, that they can "game the system" by using percentages gleaned form these extremely limited samples.
It's a loosing battle for consumers..and unfortunately the sellers capitalizing in this loosing consumer gamble can use this information to trick more unsuspecting consumers- the ones who don't read PS"

The person who submits the stone to a lab, is for a strategical purpose. He would know the quality of his diamond, and will choose which lab to send it to, to maximize his profits.
"A detail that is oft forgotten in the lab business is that, for practical purposes, all of the stones submitted to all of these labs are done so by dealers, usually the cutting house. That is to say, the person submitting the stone is themselves an expert and the lab is chosen strategically. This has been going on for decades and t's getting worse, not better. Consumers demand 'certificates'. Miners produce whatever they can but cutters and dealers are different. Their job is about maximizing money, and they compete in a wickedly competitive market. Lab selection is one of the most critical steps for how they can make more than the guy across the street. A particular lab is chosen for a particular stone because the person submitting it thought that would bring the most money because of it. They may be wrong, it happens, but not only was this decision being made by an expert grader who had the stone in hand at the time, if they decide after it comes back that it was an error, redos are possible for a nominal cost. No harm, no foul, and there is no clue for the consumer that this has happened ahead of them."

If IGI is the same standard as GIA, sellers would send their stones to GIA instead, as it can fetch them a higher price.
"Still a skeptic. If the prices of IGI were in fact so low as compared to GIA, any jeweler worth his salt will have eyes to judge diamonds that came back from IGI. If the majority of diamonds graded by IGI is indeed true to GIA's standard, obviously anyone in the right mind will know that resending an IGI diamond to GIA will earn MORE profit. Why don't the majority of the jewelers do this?"

An actual case of how sending a diamond to IGI can increase a sellers profit, at a disadvantage to a consumer.
"recently we purchased a stone, conditionally based on the grading from GIA. I was quite sure that GIA would grade the diamond I1 clarity. Sure enough, after we got the results from GIA,the stone was graded I1.
Part of our agreement with the dealer that we bought the stone from was that the price would be based on the grade. He was hoping it would get SI2 clarity.
I made my case that he should sell it to us at the price based on the grade. He was very happy to take the stone back however knowing that he could get an SI2 clarity from another lab.
This dealer is honest as the day is long. But I cannot argue with the fact that another dealer will pay him more for the diamond graded SI2 clarity from another lab besides GIA
In essence, we know that the diamond is the grade that it is, but he can find someone who's willing to pay more based on a different "certificate"
The case could be made that the only person doing something wrong, is the dealer who sells to the consumer, knowing that the diamond is graded incorrectly.
Of course I wish that this was not the case, and I could've bought the stone at a lower price
I also wish it was not the case that many dealers are willing to sell to consumers knowing that the diamonds are not correctly graded.
Stick with GIA reports and avoid the whole issue"


I must admit, I have no idea who is John Pollard. I'm not familiar with those industry name and know who is who.. Anyway, I did bother to search who he is... Basically, he sells super ideal cut diamonds himself under the name Infinity diamonds. What I find strange is ALL of his Infinity diamonds, are AGS certified only. Other diamonds are GIA. None are IGI. If you said he claims that IGI is good, why isn't he selling IGI diamonds himself? Isn't that a contradiction?

For sellers/labs, it's all about the $. Everyone wants to maximize their profits. It's not a wrong to maximize profits, but it's how you do it.
Like I said, to certify a diamond with GIA, it is about USD100-USD200
(I got these values just by searching "how much does it cost to gia certify a diamond". Some people say its USD85, some say $150.. So I used a 100-200 range)
Basically, to certify a diamond with GIA, it is not expensive. Furthermore, a GIA certified diamond can help the seller sell his diamond at a higher price. So why not send it to GIA?
Answer: The person knows that he can get a better grading in IGI. Even IGI is sold at a discount, he can still earn more profits because he can sell his diamond at a higher price for this inflated grading.

In this game, the sellers win, and consumer loses.

 

[EricMagnusLensherr]

I was thinking about the 0.45 one too. Maybe i will check if they have diamond close to 0.5 Anyway bro Eric, do u mean since the major retailers out there carry 0.5+ abit, so as comparison 0.45 or even 0.49 is more maximising in terms of value? And since they don't carry 0.59 or 0.6+, it will be hard to compare with next price jump point which is 0.7?

Yeah, what i mean is most retailers, like Lee Hwa, Soo Kee etc, tend to carry more sizes in the lower ranges (less then 0.5), so you can find 0.35,0.37, 0.43 etc more easily. But over 0.5, its mainly 0.5, 0.51, 0.52, then the next diamond size they have might be 0.7, 0.71 etc. They rarely carry 0.60 0.65 etc.

I will try to explain it as simple as possible, as the full explanation involves a deeper understanding of how diamonds are priced.

When i say 0.5ct is a price jump point, i mean that if a 0.49ct costs 3k for example, you might expect a 0.5ct to cost 3.1k or so for the additional 0.01ct weight, but this is not true, because it is above 0.5, it might cost 3.6k, meaning you pay $600 more just because its above 0.5ct. But seriously, i can guarantee no one can see the difference between a 0.49 and a 0.50, therefore it is good value to save the $600 and get a 0.49 stone. The same applies to price jump points of 0.70ct, 0.90ct and 1.00ct.

In addition, the premium also affects the minor increments, such that for 0.30 to 0.49, each 0.01ct increase might cost $60, but for 0.50 to 0.69, each 0.01ct increase will cost more, for example $90. Using fictional prices, what this means is that if 0.30ct is $2000, 0.31ct might cost $2060, but if 0.50ct costs $3600, 0.51ct will cost $3690 (assuming all same specs, color cut clarity etc)

Before any one jumps in and screams rapaport pricelist, price per carat etc, i will once again say that this is a simplified explanation and explains very well how the prices work from a consumers point of view.

0.45 i would say is a very nice size close to 0.49 already. 0.49 is extremely hard to find as most diamond cutters will try to cut it such that it attains a weight of 0.50 for the extra price rather then cut a 0.49 stone which they can sell for less. I would say 0.05 cts below price jump points such as 0.45 to 0.49 and 0.65 to 0.69 represent good value (assuming cut. color and price are all settled and reasonable to begin with)

 

[spLeenfuL]

That's alot of technical stuff to digest

To play safe, I would stick to GIA or AGS.. the dilemma of getting a poorer stone and all this trouble is not worth it.. I'd rather pay more for a peace of mind.

 

[EricMagnusLensherr]

Essentially, there are some agreements that IGI is an ok lab, where there are some disagreements as well. You can't just paste links to say your points are all correct where there there are disagreements in your links!
P.S. I never mentioned that my views are from what an SA told me. My points are merely all over the internet. I hope you don't put words in my mouth and treat this personally. I'm only sharing my thoughts, which happens to be a disagreement with yours. I find it misleading for consumers to think that IGI is the same as GIA and they deserve to know what they are getting.

My bad, got too carried away. Please accept my apologies.

I also find it misleading to inform them all Labs under the same brand are the same independent of location.

The study uses an extremely small sample size, and may not be accurate.
Diamonds can be sent to several labs and can be graded several times. The certificate with the grade that is most effective to the person's purpose will be used as the selling cert.
"The game of using this kind of data as a way of creating a conversion chart as a consumer to locate bargains is fundamentally flawed because of the presence of people upstream who can and will resubmit a stone to a different lab if they think it'll make more money with a different pedigree. There is no clue if a stone has been graded several times after all. 'Correctly' graded stones from EGLI never make it to market. They get sent somewhere else and get re-papered. This means that the margin for stones in the marketplace is actually MORE than what is seen with this sort of study."

Please don't selectively ignore the front and context of this statement... Let me post it for you... i said IGI Antwerp not all IGI and as they mentioned here, different branches different consistency... Look at what he says. people who assume all IGI branches are the same and based on that assume all IGI stones are good deals are wrong.

The sample size if small same, same as the article you posted as mentioned by them. They discussed this as well, and its down to cost... grading costs money, for an article they send 6 diamonds to 6 labs... its not free..

I agree that the IGI findings are interesting. Also HRD. As with the PS study done on this topic years ago, the sample size is awfully small and, in the case of IGI there seems to be a wide range of grading depending on which service is being offered and which lab did the work (they have many locations and offer many different services) so I think the conclusion that bargains abound in IGI goods is a bit of a stretch but I agree that lumping them in with the same group as EGL Israel as shoppers here are inclined to do might be worth rethinking. The game of using this kind of data as a way of creating a conversion chart as a consumer to locate bargains is fundamentally flawed because of the presence of people upstream who can and will resubmit a stone to a different lab if they think it'll make more money with a different pedigree. There is no clue if a stone has been graded several times after all. 'Correctly' graded stones from EGLI never make it to market. They get sent somewhere else and get re-papered. This means that the margin for stones in the marketplace is actually MORE than what is seen with this sort of study.

Another comment about these test that can be skewed and "game the system", to trick unsuspected consumers.
"What concerns me the most about "tests" such as these is that it gives consumers an idea, which sounds quite reasonable, that they can "game the system" by using percentages gleaned form these extremely limited samples.
It's a loosing battle for consumers..and unfortunately the sellers capitalizing in this loosing consumer gamble can use this information to trick more unsuspecting consumers- the ones who don't read PS"

Those who don't read PS... which i do which is why I know diff labs and locations are different rather then grouping them all together. Those who don't read ps, assume all IGI stones and labs are the same and gamble will lose, I agree.

Also like i said, i didn't just use certs, i viewed IGI Antwerp stones and love and co stones (which I now know are from IGI Antwerp as well) MYSELF using loupes, idealscope and aset scope and in blond tests... and this are MY findings from MY experience, not some third party, or replying on from from others.

The person who submits the stone to a lab, is for a strategical purpose. He would know the quality of his diamond, and will choose which lab to send it to, to maximize his profits.
"A detail that is oft forgotten in the lab business is that, for practical purposes, all of the stones submitted to all of these labs are done so by dealers, usually the cutting house. That is to say, the person submitting the stone is themselves an expert and the lab is chosen strategically. This has been going on for decades and t's getting worse, not better. Consumers demand 'certificates'. Miners produce whatever they can but cutters and dealers are different. Their job is about maximizing money, and they compete in a wickedly competitive market. Lab selection is one of the most critical steps for how they can make more than the guy across the street. A particular lab is chosen for a particular stone because the person submitting it thought that would bring the most money because of it. They may be wrong, it happens, but not only was this decision being made by an expert grader who had the stone in hand at the time, if they decide after it comes back that it was an error, redos are possible for a nominal cost. No harm, no foul, and there is no clue for the consumer that this has happened ahead of them."

If IGI is the same standard as GIA, sellers would send their stones to GIA instead, as it can fetch them a higher price.
"Still a skeptic. If the prices of IGI were in fact so low as compared to GIA, any jeweler worth his salt will have eyes to judge diamonds that came back from IGI. If the majority of diamonds graded by IGI is indeed true to GIA's standard, obviously anyone in the right mind will know that resending an IGI diamond to GIA will earn MORE profit. Why don't the majority of the jewelers do this?"

Who is this guy... some skeptical consumer ? Denver Appraiser is active on both PS and DR so his words hold more weight.

An actual case of how sending a diamond to IGI can increase a sellers profit, at a disadvantage to a consumer.
"recently we purchased a stone, conditionally based on the grading from GIA. I was quite sure that GIA ? grade the diamond I1 clarity. Sure enough, after we got the results from GIA,the stone was graded I1.
Part of our agreement with the dealer that we bought the stone from was that the price would be based on the grade. He was hoping it would get SI2 clarity.
I made my case that he should sell it to us at the price based on the grade. He was very happy to take the stone back however knowing that he could get an SI2 clarity from another lab.
This dealer is honest as the day is long. But I cannot argue with the fact that another dealer will pay him more for the diamond graded SI2 clarity from another lab besides GIA
In essence, we know that the diamond is the grade that it is, but he can find someone who's willing to pay more based on a different "certificate"
The case could be made that the only person doing something wrong, is the dealer who sells to the consumer, knowing that the diamond is graded incorrectly.
Of course I wish that this was not the case, and I could've bought the stone at a lower price
I also wish it was not the case that many dealers are willing to sell to consumers knowing that the diamonds are not correctly graded.
Stick with GIA reports and avoid the whole issue"

I didn't say this couldn't be done and wouldn't be done, but most likely they will send to labs they know have softer grading, rather then say IGI Antwerp. They choose labs and this involves branches as well.

I must admit, I have no idea who is John Pollard. I'm not familiar with those industry name and know who is who.. Anyway, I did bother to search who he is... Basically, he sells super ideal cut diamonds himself under the name Infinity diamonds. What I find strange is ALL of his Infinity diamonds, are AGS certified only. Other diamonds are GIA. None are IGI. If you said he claims that IGI is good, why isn't he selling IGI diamonds himself? Isn't that a contradiction?

Cos he's american and he's selling to america ? location and context...

For sellers/labs, it's all about the $. Everyone wants to maximize their profits. It's not a wrong to maximize profits, but it's how you do it.
Like I said, to certify a diamond with GIA, it is about USD100-USD200
(I got these values just by searching "how much does it cost to gia certify a diamond". Some people say its USD85, some say $150.. So I used a 100-200 range)
Basically, to certify a diamond with GIA, it is not expensive. Furthermore, a GIA certified diamond can help the seller sell his diamond at a higher price. So why not send it to GIA?
Answer: The person knows that he can get a better grading in IGI. Even IGI is sold at a discount, he can still earn more profits because he can sell his diamond at a higher price for this inflated grading.

In this game, the sellers win, and consumer loses.

Did you read my other posts... like the china posts or bro hollanders post...

 

[Draculav]

My bad, got too carried away. Please accept my apologies.

I also find it misleading to inform them all Labs under the same brand are the same independent of location.



Please don't selectively ignore the front and context of this statement... Let me post it for you... and please stop saying I said IGI, i said IGI Antwerp and as they mentioned here, different branches different consistency... Look at what he says. people who assume all IGI branches are the same and based on that assume all IGI stones are good deals are wrong.

The sample size if small same, same as the article you posted as mentioned by them. They discussed this as well, and its down to cost... grading costs money, for an article they send 6 diamonds to 6 labs... its not free..






Those who don't read PS... which i do and like i said, i didn't just use certs, i viewed IGI Antwerp stones and love and co stones (which I now know are from IGI Antwerp as well) MYSELF using loupes, idealscope and aset scope and in blond tests... and this are MY findings from MY experience, not some third party, or replying on from from others.





Who is this guy... some skeptical consumer ? Denver Appraiser is active on both PS and DR so his words hold more weight.



I didn't say this couldn't be done and wouldn't be done, but most likely they will send to labs they know have softer grading, rather then say IGI Antwerp. They choose labs and this involves branches as well.



Cos he's american and he's selling to america ? location and context...



Did you read my other posts... like the china posts or bro hollanders post...

Dude... if you're going to net pick every statement and say which posts carries more weight over who, this can go on forever....

Btw, the person who posted this, IS Denver Appraiser that you said holds more weight.. although I have no idea who he is.
The person who submits the stone to a lab, is for a strategical purpose. He would know the quality of his diamond, and will choose which lab to send it to, to maximize his profits.
"A detail that is oft forgotten in the lab business is that, for practical purposes, all of the stones submitted to all of these labs are done so by dealers, usually the cutting house. That is to say, the person submitting the stone is themselves an expert and the lab is chosen strategically. This has been going on for decades and t's getting worse, not better. Consumers demand 'certificates'. Miners produce whatever they can but cutters and dealers are different. Their job is about maximizing money, and they compete in a wickedly competitive market. Lab selection is one of the most critical steps for how they can make more than the guy across the street. A particular lab is chosen for a particular stone because the person submitting it thought that would bring the most money because of it. They may be wrong, it happens, but not only was this decision being made by an expert grader who had the stone in hand at the time, if they decide after it comes back that it was an error, redos are possible for a nominal cost. No harm, no foul, and there is no clue for the consumer that this has happened ahead of them."

Ok, I'm going to keep this simple and summarize the main points
I DID agree with you that there are some people who say IGI or IGI Antwerp, etc are OK. BUT, I also pointed out that there are some people who said they are not ok.
Isn't this a forum discussion? It should not be just one person's opinion. And I re-emphasize again, I DID agree that some people said IGI is OK.
I have been agreeing with some of your points in case you might have missed them out. I am sharing the less favorable statements from the same experts to give a fair picture of both side of the stories which you might have missed out as well.

MY POINT OF VIEW
Taking into account of what you said, different IGI locations have different standards. All IGI certs almost looks the same, with the big IGI logo brand on the cert. Only at a small section in the cert it is written, IGI Antwerp, IGI US, etc. Now, does all consumers know about this? No.
IF you walk into a store, and they sell IGI certs. Be it from Antwerp or US, etc, they will tell you IGI is good and that's about it... Will a typical consumer know that IGI Antwerp is better than IGI US? I highly doubt so.
Like wise, would the typical sales person segregate IGI into country selection for you? I highly doubt so. I doubt their knowledge to begin with.

To separate out IGI certs and selecting only particular origin is making IGI look like they are franchising their "brand" out with some better managed than the others.
In order to avoid this whole confusion, I recommend sticking with GIA/AGS because they are more consistent, no matter where the lab was from... and once again... These are just my thoughts. Please do not take this personally as I can see you are a huge fan of IGI

 

[EricMagnusLensherr]

Dude... if you're going to net pick every statement and say which posts carries more weight over who, this can go on forever....

Btw, the person who posted this, IS Denver Appraiser that you said holds more weight.. although I have no idea who he is.
The person who submits the stone to a lab, is for a strategical purpose. He would know the quality of his diamond, and will choose which lab to send it to, to maximize his profits.
"A detail that is oft forgotten in the lab business is that, for practical purposes, all of the stones submitted to all of these labs are done so by dealers, usually the cutting house. That is to say, the person submitting the stone is themselves an expert and the lab is chosen strategically. This has been going on for decades and t's getting worse, not better. Consumers demand 'certificates'. Miners produce whatever they can but cutters and dealers are different. Their job is about maximizing money, and they compete in a wickedly competitive market. Lab selection is one of the most critical steps for how they can make more than the guy across the street. A particular lab is chosen for a particular stone because the person submitting it thought that would bring the most money because of it. They may be wrong, it happens, but not only was this decision being made by an expert grader who had the stone in hand at the time, if they decide after it comes back that it was an error, redos are possible for a nominal cost. No harm, no foul, and there is no clue for the consumer that this has happened ahead of them."

I know... I left it there that his point carried more weight then the random guy... the cutter chose the cert based on his target customer as well as the results. Profit maximisation like you said and I agree. Who is to say Soo Kee (which owns Love and Co) didn't get this from a cutter which supplies to HK where the premium stone carries IGI ? The fact that they dare to use it for their Signature line while their normal line DOES carry GIA triple ex stones seems to indicate their confidence. If IGI was bad, wouldn't they swap and put IGI as normal and GIA as signature ?

Ok, I'm going to keep this simple and summarize the main points
I DID agree with you that there are some people who say IGI or IGI Antwerp, etc are OK. BUT, I also pointed out that there are some people who said they are not ok.
Isn't this a forum discussion? It should not be just one person's opinion. And I re-emphasize again, I DID agree that some people said IGI is OK.
I have been agreeing with some of your points in case you might have missed them out. I am sharing the less favorable statements from the same experts to give a fair picture of both side of the stories which you might have missed out as well.

MY POINT OF VIEW
Taking into account of what you said, different IGI locations have different standards. All IGI certs almost looks the same, with the big IGI logo brand on the cert. Only at a small section in the cert it is written, IGI Antwerp, IGI US, etc. Now, does all consumers know about this? No.
IF you walk into a store, and they sell IGI certs. Be it from Antwerp or US, etc, they will tell you IGI is good and that's about it... Will a typical consumer know that IGI Antwerp is better than IGI US? I highly doubt so.
Like wise, would the typical sales person segregate IGI into country selection for you? I highly doubt so. I doubt their knowledge to begin with.

To separate out IGI certs and selecting only particular origin is making IGI look like they are franchising their "brand" out with some better managed than the others.

In order to avoid this whole confusion, I recommend sticking with GIA/AGS because they are more consistent, no matter where the lab was from... and once again... These are just my thoughts. Please do not take this personally as I can see you are a huge fan of IGI

No prob, hope to end this peacefully as well.

I agree that if the consumer doesn't know where the IGI cert comes from or how to see, then avoid IGI. As bro spLeenfuL and yourself pointed out, if you don't know, then AGS/GIA is safer, which i agree. But he is asking about Love and Co AND IGI, so i replied based on my experience with Love and Co and IGI Antwerp diamonds, in fact i specifically mentioned the branch and warned that different branches diff consistency/standard... if its a IGI US stone from a private jeweller for example, I would probably say avoid...

My 2 comments made to JX was... IGI Antwerp stones i saw were good, even overly strict, and i saw Love and Co stones, I knew they were IGI, I didn't know which lab, but i felt they were well cut and the cut consistency between stone seems to tell me that. At no point did i claim all IGI was good and neither am i a fan of IGI. I'm just a fan of good deals, research and diamonds

 

[jxyang888]

Yeah, what i mean is most retailers, like Lee Hwa, Soo Kee etc, tend to carry more sizes in the lower ranges (less then 0.5), so you can find 0.35,0.37, 0.43 etc more easily. But over 0.5, its mainly 0.5, 0.51, 0.52, then the next diamond size they have might be 0.7, 0.71 etc. They rarely carry 0.60 0.65 etc.

I will try to explain it as simple as possible, as the full explanation involves a deeper understanding of how diamonds are priced.

When i say 0.5ct is a price jump point, i mean that if a 0.49ct costs 3k for example, you might expect a 0.5ct to cost 3.1k or so for the additional 0.01ct weight, but this is not true, because it is above 0.5, it might cost 3.6k, meaning you pay $600 more just because its above 0.5ct. But seriously, i can guarantee no one can see the difference between a 0.49 and a 0.50, therefore it is good value to save the $600 and get a 0.49 stone. The same applies to price jump points of 0.70ct, 0.90ct and 1.00ct.

In addition, the premium also affects the minor increments, such that for 0.30 to 0.49, each 0.01ct increase might cost $60, but for 0.50 to 0.69, each 0.01ct increase will cost more, for example $90. Using fictional prices, what this means is that if 0.30ct is $2000, 0.31ct might cost $2060, but if 0.50ct costs $3600, 0.51ct will cost $3690 (assuming all same specs, color cut clarity etc)

Before any one jumps in and screams rapaport pricelist, price per carat etc, i will once again say that this is a simplified explanation and explains very well how the prices work from a consumers point of view.

0.45 i would say is a very nice size close to 0.49 already. 0.49 is extremely hard to find as most diamond cutters will try to cut it such that it attains a weight of 0.50 for the extra price rather then cut a 0.49 stone which they can sell for less. I would say 0.05 cts below price jump points such as 0.45 to 0.49 and 0.65 to 0.69 represent good value (assuming cut. color and price are all settled and reasonable to begin with)

Bro Eric thanks for the explanation! I get it. What do u all think if its super ideal 0.45 E VS2 around 2.5k?

 

[EricMagnusLensherr]

Bro Eric thanks for the explanation! I get it. What do u all think if its super ideal 0.45 E VS2 around 2.5k?

Including setting ? Seems very good price. Did JP quote you that ?

Bro Seraphic posted these price last week which he got from JP bu it think its diamond only...
0.44 VS1 F $2600 (Super Ideal Cut)
0.45 VS2 E $2700 (Super Ideal Cut)

His post : http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/79154850-post4407.html

If its from love and co, I never said Love and Co is super ideal. Only close as I can't see the hearts as those i viewed were already mounted. Hope you understand my need to clarify hor, i don't wan to kena misunderstood again. hahaha.

 

[toughnut]

Finally proposed to her and bought the wedding band too while return to JP for resizing.

0.57c D VVS2 solasfera for proposal ring
15x 0.03c D-F VS1-2 round for wedding band

very happy man

 

[ivandemi]

Finally proposed to her and bought the wedding band too while return to JP for resizing.

0.57c D VVS2 solasfera for proposal ring
15x 0.03c D-F VS1-2 round for wedding band

very happy man

Nice rings! You got the Solasfera!!
Are the rings to loose?

 

[toughnut]

Nice rings! You got the Solasfera!!
Are the rings to loose?

One size too small actually. Oops

 

[EricMagnusLensherr]

Finally proposed to her and bought the wedding band too while return to JP for resizing.

0.57c D VVS2 solasfera for proposal ring
15x 0.03c D-F VS1-2 round for wedding band

very happy man

Beautiful ! Do you mind tell us how much the wedding band cost ?

 

[toughnut]

Beautiful ! Do you mind tell us how much the wedding band cost ?

Thanks. Sorry cuz I can't recall the exact price for this particular ring as we bought in pair, including mine. I think either $1.3k or $1.8k, if that help haha. Total $2.2k

 

[EricMagnusLensherr]

Thanks. Sorry cuz I can't recall the exact price for this particular ring as we bought in pair, including mine. I think either $1.3k or $1.8k, if that help haha. Total $2.2k

No problem and thanks for the reply You never ask JP do some glamour shots of your proposal ring for you ah ? I feel that that is one of their coolest value added services. hahaha.