Proposal Ring - Part 2

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spLeenfuL

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It is based on proportions, yes, but like i mentioned, it is based on his opinion because of the way the weightage is assigned. It is weighted to the look he likes and not all elements are given equal weightage, and this is a fact. Once within the 0-2 range, different numbers have different characteristics.

On the HCA page it self, it says this in bold...
"A score below 2 (Excellent) means you have eliminated known poor performers (more than 95% of all diamonds). Your own personal preference may be for a diamond with an HCA score of 1.5 more rather than one with a lower score of say 0.5.""

On both the HCA site and his own personal website he says...
"Most people prefer stones that rate 1-2 on a scale where: 0-2 Excellent, 2-4 Very Good, 4-6 Good, 6-8 Fair, and 8-10 Poor. Zero is almost impossible since many of the factors conflict."

These seem to obviously indicate that not lower is better, else he would simply say lower is better and not use the ranges/examples he used. Using it in a lower is better method is using it as a selection tool, not the use it was intended for.

With regards to the EX/EX/EX/VG and EX/EX/VG/VG, it is the same misuse of the HCA as a selection tool. Gary confirmed that this is NOT the case as recently as last month . And says once again that the HCA is a rejection tool, not a selection tool (people misuse it in this manner VERY often). He also goes on to say that ranges up to 2.5 or 3.0 could also be acceptable (i believe this is to accommodate his penalization of steeper and deeper cuts based on his opinion during the creation of the HCA). Most people normally accepts what the creator of the tool says...

Not sure what having stones under 1.5 proves... given the number of ACAs of course there are stones under 1.5, just as there are stones with 2 and above... Check out the Whiteflash ACA page... once again, the white flash ACA favors the 34.9/40.9 cut as i have mentioned before. Over half their stones have numbers close to this, even up to numbers like 35/41. Enter 34.9 and 40.9 in the HCA and tell me what you get. I get 1.7. Is my browser screwed up ? If it is not, then over half of their stone scores over 1.5... Some of the ones with higher numbers even score 2 or 2.1... an example of HCA's penalization of slightly steeper/deeper cuts. So does their super ideal looks worse ? It does NOT. It is simply the look they are going for, and also a number within the range of both the Tolk Ideal and Morse Ideal (sadly ignored by most consumers).

PS: After your last posts about the lower halves i also checked with Jon and he verified that there IS more contrast due to the lower girdle halves, the angles play a part, and the stars while not affecting the hotspots will affect other parts of the diamond which may affect contrast. And the increased contrast is not a visual illusion...



O_O Duno, who said that. I thought the 0.55 looks better then the 0.53, did i miss something ? Hahaha. To me for the 0.53 the obvious issues are the number of uneven V and the difference in sizes of some of the hearts, like how small the 7th heart is compared to the 8th. The 0.55 definitely looks alot better to me.

But i agree, if its just an alignment issue, I would prefer the 0.55.

I think we can all agree that the HCA should only be used to reject bad diamonds and not to make your final decision.

If you are choosing between a diamond that has a HCA 1.1 and HCA 3, you can don't waste your time on the HCA 3 diamond. It's confirm bad.

If you are choosing between a diamond that has a HCA 1.1 and HCA 0.7, you cannot assume that the HCA 0.7 is confirm better.

Don't forget, the HCA does not measure symmetry at all. To make a final decision, the scopes are needed. HCA is just one of the many factors you need to use to analyze your stone.
 
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If ACA has changed their filtration then i must be wrong, but if you look to threads last year and beyond every stone has less than 1.5, they must have widen their range

i'm going to give you an example
Diamond | 1.015 ct G VS2 A CUT ABOVE® Hearts and Arrows Super Ideal Round Cut Loose Diamond AGS Certified | 2661539

Diamond | 0.704 ct I SI1 A CUT ABOVE® Hearts and Arrows Super Ideal Round Cut Loose Diamond AGS Certified | 2937166

Don't think they changed their specification, but that is possible i guess... I don't see the point of posting those 2 diamonds... I never said numbers resulting in below 1.5 did not exist... I said given their inventory size, its bound to exists. 34.9/40.9 look is what they are going for but not ALL ACA their diamonds are cut to that... i only said more then half... based on my observation.

you understand the relation of crown to pavilion angle right? and you understand towlkosky's proportions and the balance between fire and scintillation

Between these 2, which has a greater balance?
a crown angle closing in on 35 and pavilion on 41 results closer to a nailhead
would you rather play it safe? or take the risk that it's acceptable?

Yep i agree that it results closer to the nail head. But it is still within range. Whats the point of setting a range if you are not going to use it but use a number lesser then it... Hahahaha ! So the new range becomes 34.9/40.9 ? Then 34.9/40.9 is still closer to a nailhead then 34.8/40.8... would you rather play it safe or take the risk that its acceptable ?

I did not mention the HCA is a selection tool, i've emphasized over again and again it's a rejection tool.

Sorry, must have misinterpreted your statement below... so is there a high chance it is worse or is it simply different characteristics... maybe you'd like to debate it with Gary...

"An Ex/Ex/Ex/VG is in no way worse then a Ex/Ex/VG/VG which scores below 2. They just have different characteristics."

Wrong, there is a high chance it can be worse.

when you talk about weightage of fire, and preference over it and the majority, i'm guessing you are talking about pricescope input. I do follow the forums as well. There wouldn't be a drastic change anyhow, if in any case it's in the regions we are not talking about(FICS AND BICS). Also, when you speak of "majority". Who is this majority? Older generation people purchasing diamonds? Because that's what the older generation prefer. Research based on?

So you agree now that it is based on his opinion and will be modified ? Erm... when did i mentioned research and majority... I press control F and find but its neither in my updated post nor my original post you quoted...

And yeah, i do mean their input and yep many of them are the older generation, about 50%. and despite this fact, yep it IS going to affect the HCA. It is based on Gary's opinion in the first place and not balanced to begin with... Is basing it on a wider pool containing more older people less accurate then a single persons opinion ? Based on math/statistics, it should still be more accurate... Erm... I have no idea about the exact formula for the HCA and cannot garuntee if it will or will not change. My question was "what if it changes and it is now above the 1.4/1.5" If you have information regarding the formula or can confirm that the TIC range will not change I would appreciate it if you could share, cos i must have missed it. in that case, my apologies.

Lastly, it is very possible to find leakage under the table 1.5-2.0. Much less with below 1.5. I can prove this point but id have to look through diamond searches but i'm sure you know this.

This is why its a rejection tool and not a selection tool. Less then 2.0 to eliminate most, not ALL of possible diamonds with leakage and search form within that range... By eliminating the 1.5 to 2.0 you are also eliminating a particular look.
Which some might prefer.
 
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DawnMin

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Don't think they changed their specification, but that is possible i guess...





Sorry, must have misinterpreted your statement below... so is it worse or not...





So you agree now that it is based on his opinion and will be modified ? Erm... when did i mentioned research and majority... I press control F and find but its neither in my updated post nor my original post you quoted...

And yeah, i do mean their input and yep they are the older generation, and despite this fact, yep it IS going to affect the HCA. Erm... I have no idea about the formula for the HCA and cannot garuntee if it will or will not change. My question was "what if it changes and it is now above the 1.4/1.5" If you have information regarding the formula or can confirm that the TIC range will not change I would appreciate it if you could share, cos i must have missed it. in that case, my apologies.



This is why its a rejection tool and not a selection tool. Less then 2.0 to eliminate most, not ALL of possible diamonds with leakage and search form within that range... By eliminating the 1.5 to 2.0 you are also eliminating a particular look.
Which some might prefer.

I have no information on what will change. However, i don't see how it is possible to give a higher preference to steep crowns and forgiving pavilion angles at all. I did not say 1.5-2.0 is bad, but there is a higher chance of it being bad. The particular "look" in 1.5-2.0 is as such: diamonds closing on 35/41 combinations or stuff like 33/41.2

these "looks" you are talking about are closing on steep deeps, which are risky when you can achieve the "fire" by keeping a high crown and less steep pavilion :s12: . The problem here is, most people don't get to view their diamonds in every lighting environment. Since proposal ring thread 1, mingj recommended below 1.5 to keep people away from having the chance of buying steep/deeps. I'm just pointing out, these ranges keep people from "chancing" over worse looking diamonds that they can't analyze.
 

DawnMin

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So you agree now that it is based on his opinion and will be modified ? Erm... when did i mentioned research and majority... I press control F and find but its neither in my updated post nor my original post you quoted...

"Gary is developing the next version of the HCA and people like me who prefer fire have contributed our opinion. The weightage WILL be shifted based on the opinions of a wider group of people rather then his own opinion"

you deleted it from your original post

"Yep i agree that it results closer to the nail head. But it is still within range. "
you're going for an unnecessary steep/deep. below 1.5 is placing a range in a range. Just like how HCA places a range on GIA's triple excellent range. We are narrowing down for people to make more sound purchases and not take risks

this is what proposal ring thread has been about all along, trying to help everyone make a low risk purchase. accepting wider ranges because "maybe" it will be alright would not be helping.
 
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I have no information on what will change. However, i don't see how it is possible to give a higher preference to steep crowns and forgiving pavilion angles at all. I did not say 1.5-2.0 is bad, but there is a higher chance of it being bad. The particular "look" in 1.5-2.0 is as such: diamonds closing on 35/41 combinations or stuff like 33/41.2

these "looks" you are talking about are closing on steep deeps, which are risky when you can achieve the "fire" by keeping a high crown and less steep pavilion :s12: . The problem here is, most people don't get to view their diamonds in every lighting environment. Since proposal ring thread 1, mingj recommended below 1.5 to keep people away from having the chance of buying steep/deeps. I'm just pointing out, these ranges keep people from "chancing" over worse looking diamonds that they can't analyze.

We reply too fast and i edit too much. Hahahaha ! Yes, i agree with this information and the higher chance is indeed a fact, if it was simply based on numbers. I now see why you guys don't recommend these numbers in order to totally eliminate the steep deeps for people who don't know how to look. Yep, the 1.5 would give a more middle range numbers. The assumption here is that most people would want a more balanced stone,and only have the numbers to base on... So what about JP or Whiteflash who already visually sorted their Super Ideal/ACA ? Avoid also ah ? Cheers.
 
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So you agree now that it is based on his opinion and will be modified ? Erm... when did i mentioned research and majority... I press control F and find but its neither in my updated post nor my original post you quoted...

"Gary is developing the next version of the HCA and people like me who prefer fire have contributed our opinion. The weightage WILL be shifted based on the opinions of a wider group of people rather then his own opinion"

you deleted it from your original post

"Yep i agree that it results closer to the nail head. But it is still within range. "
you're going for an unnecessary steep/deep. below 1.5 is placing a range in a range. Just like how HCA places a range on GIA's triple excellent range. We are narrowing down for people to make more sound purchases and not take risks

this is what proposal ring thread has been about all along, trying to help everyone make a low risk purchase. accepting wider ranges because "maybe" it will be alright would not be helping.

Ooops, sorry, My edit was made before you posted your reply, my apologies, i edit too much. Hahaha. (my last edit was 12:41, you post was 12:43). and I thought it was in your quote also. Hahaha. I never said majority or research... i said based on the feedback from a wider group of people rather then his own...

Erm... I don't think it is really steep deep, just a steeper/deeper cut. But i understand. So i should be giving advise to minimize any risk whatsoever and should recommend the cookie cutter numbers. So next time i see close to 35/41 i should say high risk, even JP and Whiteflash ACA stones which they have sorted visually ? Hahahaha ! To me sorted visually means almost no risk already as they would have weeded bad 35/41 stones out, but oh well, when in rome do as the romans do. Cert number beats visual inspection. KK, will just say high risk to those in the future, no need look at images. cheers.
 
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limited

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haha suddenly all the diamond sages come out on Sunday. =p

I'm more inclined to use HCA as a sorting tool. So you don't waste too much time going through multiple diamond cut quality. Nothing beats looking at a diamond to make the decision on all the 4Cs =]
 

Jackjack42

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Posting scope images

Hello folks,

been trying to post my scope images but i'm not able to due to insufficient posts.

been playing around with Tinypics but it doesn't seems to be working.

Can someone advise how can i put up pictures?

Would like to put these images out for comments so that i can get feedback on the stone i purchased.

Any help is warmly appreciated!
 

S1rius

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Hello folks,

been trying to post my scope images but i'm not able to due to insufficient posts.

been playing around with Tinypics but it doesn't seems to be working.

Can someone advise how can i put up pictures?

Would like to put these images out for comments so that i can get feedback on the stone i purchased.

Any help is warmly appreciated!

Hey, u might want to try photobucket? Once uploaded, copy e url, then click & paste on e forum image upload url.
 

kendrick272

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Hi.. sorry I'm really a noob at this... I was wondering if I should or not visit JP with my gf..... hv anybody here went to JP with their gf or bf here..?? How was the experience like with all the sharing for one hr+ and stuff?? I want to surprise her tmrw as I've already made appointment with JP. She doesn't know it yet.

Would appreciate ur advise. Apologies for the short notice. Lols. Quite rushing huh.
I brought her down to choose :)
 

hollander

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Hello folks,

been trying to post my scope images but i'm not able to due to insufficient posts.

been playing around with Tinypics but it doesn't seems to be working.

Can someone advise how can i put up pictures?

Would like to put these images out for comments so that i can get feedback on the stone i purchased.

Any help is warmly appreciated!


Go to TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting
click Browse, locate your photo (must be save to your local drive)
click upload now
Answer the question and key in the code to proceed with your upload
Click upload again
Copy the path from "URL for E-Mail & IM"

Example:

http://i44.tinypic.com/29y4d2q.png

Share the link to us.




29y4d2q.png
 

S1rius

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It is based on proportions, yes, but like i mentioned, it is based on his opinion because of the way the weightage is assigned. It is weighted to the look he likes and not all elements are given equal weightage, and this is a fact. Once within the 0-2 range, different numbers have different characteristics, and are not better or worse

On the HCA page it self, it says this in bold...
"A score below 2 (Excellent) means you have eliminated known poor performers (more than 95% of all diamonds). Your own personal preference may be for a diamond with an HCA score of 1.5 more rather than one with a lower score of say 0.5.""

On both the HCA site and his own personal website he says...
"Most people prefer stones that rate 1-2 on a scale where: 0-2 Excellent, 2-4 Very Good, 4-6 Good, 6-8 Fair, and 8-10 Poor. Zero is almost impossible since many of the factors conflict."

These seem to obviously indicate that not lower is better, else he would simply say lower is better and not use the ranges/examples he used. Using it in a lower is better method is using it as a selection tool, not the use it was intended for.

With regards to the EX/EX/EX/VG and EX/EX/VG/VG, it is the same misuse of the HCA as a selection tool. Gary confirmed that this is NOT the case as recently as last month . And says once again that the HCA is a rejection tool, not a selection tool (people misuse it in this manner VERY often). He also goes on to say that ranges up to 2.5 or 3.0 could also be acceptable (i believe this is to accommodate his penalization of steeper and deeper cuts based on his opinion during the creation of the HCA). Most people normally accepts what the creator of the tool says...

Not sure what having stones under 1.5 proves... given the number of ACAs of course there are stones under 1.5, just as there are stones with 2 and above... Check out the Whiteflash ACA page... once again, the white flash ACA favors the 34.9/40.9 cut as i have mentioned before. Over half their stones have numbers close to this, even up to numbers like 35/41. Enter 34.9 and 40.9 in the HCA and tell me what you get. I get 1.7. Is my browser screwed up ? If it is not, then over half of their stone scores over 1.5... Some of the ones with higher numbers even score 2 or 2.1... an example of HCA's penalization of slightly steeper/deeper cuts. So does their super ideal looks worse ? It does NOT. It is simply the look they are going for, and also a number within the range of both the Tolk Ideal and Morse Ideal (sadly ignored by most consumers).

PS: After your last posts about the lower halves i also checked with Jon and he verified that there IS more contrast due to the lower girdle halves, the angles play a part, and the stars while not affecting the hotspots will affect other parts of the diamond which may affect contrast. And the increased contrast is not a visual illusion...



O_O Duno, who said that. I thought the 0.55 looks better then the 0.53, did i miss something ? Hahaha. To me for the 0.53 the obvious issues are the number of uneven V and the difference in sizes of some of the hearts, like how small the 7th heart is compared to the 8th. The 0.55 definitely looks alot better to me.

But i agree, if its just an alignment issue, I would prefer the 0.55.

Thx for e replies. I just got a reply from JP regarding e 0.55:
The 0.55 F VS2, has one inclusion located on table, near the middle of the diamond.
The faint spots you see on the Hearts scopes, are the reflection of that inclusion.
It is the reflection of that inclusion, which is being mirrored on the other hearts.

Hmm, is it a bad thing?
 
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Thx for e replies. I just got a reply from JP regarding e 0.55:
The 0.55 F VS2, has one inclusion located on table, near the middle of the diamond.
The faint spots you see on the Hearts scopes, are the reflection of that inclusion.
It is the reflection of that inclusion, which is being mirrored on the other hearts.

Hmm, is it a bad thing?

Hahaha, i knew that, that one no issue. I was referring to this images

0.53
AsetRB053GVS2GIA2156345809_zpsf7358a55.jpg

ActualRB053GVS2GIA2156345809_zps0d0d553c.jpg


0.55
AsetRB055FVS2GIA7151571159_zps19cb65c3.jpg

ActualRB055FVS2GIA7151571159_zpsf8bc3340.jpg


Can you see the extra dark areas in the center of the last image ? At the base of the shafts in between the arrows. If any one can help explain i would be interested. Can't see it in the ASETs though... But i personally don't like the look of it. hahaha

PS : in the last image, those specks right in the middle of the diamond in the third quarter is probably what you see reflected in the hearts.
 
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bedposthalo

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Hahaha, i knew that, that one no issue. I was referring to this images

0.53
AsetRB053GVS2GIA2156345809_zpsf7358a55.jpg

ActualRB053GVS2GIA2156345809_zps0d0d553c.jpg


0.55
AsetRB055FVS2GIA7151571159_zps19cb65c3.jpg

ActualRB055FVS2GIA7151571159_zpsf8bc3340.jpg


Can you see the extra dark areas in the center of the last image ? At the base of the shafts in between the arrows. If any one can help explain i would be interested. Can't see it in the ASETs though... But i personally don't like the look of it. hahaha

The triangular dark areas between the base of the shafts are called hotspots. They are responsible for the bright flashes of light (fire).
 

limited

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Yep yep bedposthalo is correct! mostly due to the imperfection of the cut. and the internal reflections causing it to reflect light coming from the top. =]

Thx for e replies. I just got a reply from JP regarding e 0.55:
The 0.55 F VS2, has one inclusion located on table, near the middle of the diamond.
The faint spots you see on the Hearts scopes, are the reflection of that inclusion.
It is the reflection of that inclusion, which is being mirrored on the other hearts.

Hmm, is it a bad thing?

Anyway the reflections of that inclusions its just not that nice for me. But i guess its up to the individual. It won't cause a problem with the integrity of the diamond, but i guess you just made a VS1/VS2 into a SI2 cause you can actually see the inclusion under the scope. haha!
 
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hollander

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Thx for e replies. I just got a reply from JP regarding e 0.55:
The 0.55 F VS2, has one inclusion located on table, near the middle of the diamond.
The faint spots you see on the Hearts scopes, are the reflection of that inclusion.
It is the reflection of that inclusion, which is being mirrored on the other hearts.

Hmm, is it a bad thing?

You got a good example of 2 stones with VS2 Clarity here.

.55 F VS2 is a nice stone similar with the other one. It being VS2 is really good enough, these are magnified images and if it bothers you go with the one that will give you peace of mind.

In general, If you can see the inclusion in x10 magnification do not buy it.
Even on a day to day life, inclusions SI1 Clarity stone is hard to find.

HeartsRB055FVS2GIA7151571159_zps57bdffdb.jpg
 
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The triangular dark areas between the base of the shafts are called hotspots. They are responsible for the bright flashes of light (fire).

Yep yep bedposthalo is correct! mostly due to the imperfection of the cut. and the internal reflections causing it to reflect light coming from the top. =]

That would have been one of my guesses, but wouldn't that have shown up in the aset image? If these are hotspots why are only certain hotspots showing up on the ASET. In the 0.53, its practically exactly the same as the ASET which is what i would expect of a properly taken photo.

limited said:
Anyway the reflections of that inclusions its just not that nice for me. But i guess its up to the individual. It won't cause a problem with the integrity of the diamond, but i guess you just made a VS1/VS2 into a SI2 cause you can actually see the inclusion under the scope. haha!

You got a good example of 2 stones with VS2 Clarity here.

.55 F VS2 is a nice stone similar with the other one. It being VS2 is really good enough, these are magnified images and if it bothers you go with the one that will give you peace of mind.

In general, If you can see the inclusion in x10 magnification do not buy it.
Even on a day to day life, inclusions SI1 Clarity stone is hard to find.

Yep, agree with bro hollander. These images are magnified 30x or 40x I think, so worries, definitely should not be si2...
 
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Posting for Bro Jackjack42, he already bought the diamond. I won't comment on the numbers since this has a 41 degree Pav and the expected Ex/Ex/VG/VG, exactly what i was arguing for. You guys go ahead. Hearts wise, The hearts is probably the reason its just an ideal.

Specifications for stone are as follows:
1.02 / G / VS2 / 3Ex / Ideal Cut
6.44 - 6.46 x 4.00mm
Cut - Excellent
Polish - Excellent
Symmetry - Excellent
Flurorenscene - None

Depth - 61.9 %
Table - 56 %
Crown Angle - 34.0°
Crown Height- 15.0%
Pavilion Angle - 41.0°
Pavilion Depth - 43.5%
Star Length - 50%
Lower Half- 80%
Girdle - Medium to Slightly Thick, Faceted, 4.0%
Culet - None

HCA:
Light Return: Excellent
Fire: Excellent
Scintillation: Very Good
Spread: Very Good

Score: 1.4

qovpte.jpg

2a6s4rt.jpg

5woiv.jpg

cus5s.jpg

1zwmfcn.jpg

hvxchl.jpg
 
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S1rius

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That would have been one of my guesses, but wouldn't that have shown up in the aset image? If these are hotspots why are only certain hotspots showing up on the ASET. In the 0.53, its practically exactly the same as the ASET which is what i would expect of a properly taken photo.





Yep, agree with bro hollander. These images are magnified 30x or 40x I think, so worries, definitely should not be si2...

Cool. In that case, i will wait for JP to send me e images of a 0.53 E VS2. Ha, but am currently more tilted towards e 0.55 f vs2.
 

limited

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Posting for Bro Jackjack42, he already bought the diamond. I won't comment on the numbers since this has a 41 degree Pav and the expected Ex/Ex/VG/VG, exactly what i was arguing for. You guys go ahead. Hearts wise, The hearts is probably the reason its just an ideal.

Specifications for stone are as follows:
1.02 / G / VS2 / 3Ex / Ideal Cut
6.44 - 6.46 x 4.00mm
Cut - Excellent
Polish - Excellent
Symmetry - Excellent
Flurorenscene - None

Depth - 61.9 %
Table - 56 %
Crown Angle - 34.0°
Crown Height- 15.0%
Pavilion Angle - 41.0°
Pavilion Depth - 43.5%
Star Length - 50%
Lower Half- 80%
Girdle - Medium to Slightly Thick, Faceted, 4.0%
Culet - None

HCA:
Light Return: Excellent
Fire: Excellent
Scintillation: Very Good
Spread: Very Good

Score: 1.4

qovpte.jpg

2a6s4rt.jpg

5woiv.jpg

cus5s.jpg

1zwmfcn.jpg

hvxchl.jpg


Jackjack42 still a nice stone bro! =] 1.02 ct to add to that too! She must be really happy girl to have you!

The more important thing is always to be paying for what you can see. No proint to be paying more if you can't see the difference!
 
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