psychology of trading

limster

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Just take Peter Lim and Chicken Genius as examples. They all more than 10X their initial capital. Adam Khoo side also have traders who more than 10X through crypto.
We also have Master Leong who made mistakes and show us how it can fail, so the information to 10X profit is available, either free or paid.

That is the point, there is probably some sort of distribution curve of below average, average , and above average investors? Those that are above average make above average returns, those are at the top 1% will make even higher returns, while the below average can't even beat the market.

The question is to be frank and honest with yourself what type of investor you are. If you are below average, you might as well just buy ETF. That probably applies to me :s13:

The problem comes because many think they are above average, can watch youtube video and become top 1% investor already. The bigger problem happens when they are lucky at first, they think its their skill then they go all in and blow up.
 

theMKR

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That is the point, there is probably some sort of distribution curve of below average, average , and above average investors? Those that are above average make above average returns, those are at the top 1% will make even higher returns, while the below average can't even beat the market.

The question is to be frank and honest with yourself what type of investor you are. If you are below average, you might as well just buy ETF. That probably applies to me :s13:

The problem comes because many think they are above average, can watch youtube video and become top 1% investor already. The bigger problem happens when they are lucky at first, they think its their skill then they go all in and blow up.
totally sounds like me, go all in and blow up :(
 

havetheveryfun

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the phrase is not saying you cant get rich trading your own money.

but rather: "No one GOT rich from trading and/or investing ever"

so assuming a normal folk earns a median wage, live modesty. saved up 50k.

to get to 5m, he would need a return of 100x. maybe possible in the crypto world, but for conventional vehicles?
if the common folk invested 50k in US stocks at 2015 n got out at right time, would have easily made 250k.

for us peasants, u have to learn from ASSI AK. build up a warchest and wait for recession and opportunities. usually one person's life times will meet at least 3-4 market crashes. have to build up your emotional temperament in the meantime.

for instance, for someone in their 30s now. they already experienced 2 times. once was when oil dropped to close to 0. if you bought a lot of oil companies at that time you easily 5x already by now. but not easy to buy a lot when oil is 0. i myself only dared to buy an oil ETF with 2k only that time.

second time is during covid start when STI dropped low 2000s. if bought 3 local banks at that time you also huat now. not 50x but it builds up over time due to the compound effect n more $ to go in.

of cos all these is easier said than done. is hard to buy and hold when everything is crashing .
 

limster

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second time is during covid start when STI dropped low 2000s. if bought 3 local banks at that time you also huat now. not 50x but it builds up over time due to the compound effect n more $ to go in.

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ilHwXWd.jpg


I have never found it possible to buy exactly at the bottom. My philosophy is that since STI will recover to 3,000, whatever I buy under 3,000 is basically 'pure profit', as long as got profit can already.

As i mentioned before, this is something I learnt from the last GFC - I bought a lot on the way down, but when STI was heading back up, I did not want to buy because the price was higher than by average buying price.

For 2020 crash, even though I averaged down to $2.63, I continued buying on the way up at the $2.80 -$2.90 level, because to me, Anything I buy as it moves back to $3 is still pure profit even though it causes my average buying price to go up. However, I did not buy as aggressively when STI was recovering compared to when it was crashing, so I have to work on that.
 
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limster

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Returns after regularly Investing in STI ETF in 2016

When STI ETF dropped from $3.00 to $2.98, got people in the forums think that STI is crashing. If you continued regular DCA of STI ETF in 2016, you will be happy if STI ends at $2.98 at the end of 2016.

What is interesting is that 2016 performance of STI ETF will be influenced by whether you benchmark it against the 30 Dec closing price or the 04 Jan closing price due to window dressing

30 Dec 2015 closing price $2.95
04 Jan 2016 closing price $2.90
(Source Yahoo Finance - hopefully it's accurate)

But whether you look at 04 Jan or 30 Dec closing price, regular investment in STI ETF in the course of the year should bring a positive return (unless STI crashes in the last few weeks of December which is rare because that's the window-dressing period).

Furthermore, STI ETF went ex-Div:

29 Jan - $0.056
29 Jul - $0.073
(from dividend.sg, hopefully I copied it correctly)


2016 STI ETF purchases
Jan $2.76
Mar $2.85
Apr $2.82
May $2.84
Jun $2.85
Jul Didn't buy - all money into BREXIT stocks
Aug Didn't buy - continuing post BREXIT purchases
Sep Didn't buy - rebuilding warchest after BREXIT
Oct $2.85
Nov $2.83
Dec Not buying -- too close to $3.00

And for reference, 4 years before that in 2016, I was also buying STI under 3,000! Even though it didn't go that low, under 3,000 is always a good price to buy! :s13:
 

havetheveryfun

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ggVlOSb.png


ilHwXWd.jpg


I have never found it possible to buy exactly at the bottom. My philosophy is that since STI will recover to 3,000, whatever I buy under 3,000 is basically 'pure profit', as long as got profit can already.

As i mentioned before, this is something I learnt from the last GFC - I bought a lot on the way down, but when STI was heading back up, I did not want to buy because the price was higher than by average buying price.

For 2020 crash, even though I averaged down to $2.63, I continued buying on the way up at the $2.80 -$2.90 level, because to me, Anything I buy as it moves back to $3 is still pure profit even though it causes my average buying price to go up. However, I did not buy as aggressively when STI was recovering compared to when it was crashing, so I have to work on that.
i also need to work on buying more..lucky did bought some but regret not buying more..

as u said it was when sti recovering that i did not dare to buy more as i tot the same as u, that it will bring up my avg price.. but then it nv went back down again after going up..
 

theMKR

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if the common folk invested 50k in US stocks at 2015 n got out at right time, would have easily made 250k.

for us peasants, u have to learn from ASSI AK. build up a warchest and wait for recession and opportunities. usually one person's life times will meet at least 3-4 market crashes. have to build up your emotional temperament in the meantime.

for instance, for someone in their 30s now. they already experienced 2 times. once was when oil dropped to close to 0. if you bought a lot of oil companies at that time you easily 5x already by now. but not easy to buy a lot when oil is 0. i myself only dared to buy an oil ETF with 2k only that time.

second time is during covid start when STI dropped low 2000s. if bought 3 local banks at that time you also huat now. not 50x but it builds up over time due to the compound effect n more $ to go in.

of cos all these is easier said than done. is hard to buy and hold when everything is crashing .
when it drops, do people cash out?

unless they can time it properly and cashed out, wait for it to drop, then load in at near lows, then exit at near highs Q1-2022, otherwise by letting it roll, dun think the returns would be good...
 

theMKR

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And for reference, 4 years before that in 2016, I was also buying STI under 3,000! Even though it didn't go that low, under 3,000 is always a good price to buy! :s13:
actually i think ur method works best in the current market, but may lose out in a super bull run.....
 

theMKR

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And for reference, 4 years before that in 2016, I was also buying STI under 3,000! Even though it didn't go that low, under 3,000 is always a good price to buy! :s13:
just wondering, when do you exit? when sti above 3150?
 

wtaps300

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If I may just continue, with the psychology of trading. Which I feel is one of the most important. We always hear cut your losses, let your profits run. This " way of thing", can help with the former, I feel. As usual, I welcome any comments, discussion.

The Basics. Always. Always Assume That You Are Wrong

Or you can read the Karmasutra before you start your trading day


I come from a STEM background. I actually have a degree in mechanical engineering. I cannot write well, and coming from that background, to write about something as counter-intuitive, or at times as abstract as trading, I think it will be doubly hard. But I shall make an attempt anyway, because I think it is important.

Suppose I have put in my fair share in studying the markets. And then conditions X & Y present themselves. From my studies, when these occur, I will put on a long position at B. I define my cut-loss point at C, and my profit target at T. So far so good. But what is my assumption about the trade when I do this? More often than not, either subconsciously, or on an intuitive level, I must assume I am " RIGHT". Else why would I even be taking the position in the first place?

But that is the wrong way to think about trading or investing.

The RIGHT way, or rather, the RIGHT mindset. Is to assume that I am already WRONG when I initiate that position.

Now take a minute to reflect on that. If I have already assumed that I am WRONG, it makes it easier for me to cut my loss if price goes to my cut loss point. And if I have initiated the position and the price went nowhere, but really hasn't reached my cut loss point, I will have a tendency to cut it quicker. I now have made it easier for me to cut my losses, because I have assumed I am wrong in the first place. And because I know I am probably wrong, I am more alert and quicker to react when things do go wrong while I am holding the position.

Am I making any sense so far?

If you think I am alone in this "weird" way of thinking, consider this quote from George Soros from his "Soros on Soros":

“I recognize that I may be wrong. This makes me insecure. My sense of insecurity keeps me alert, always ready to correct my errors. "

There are numerous similar quotes about recognizing one's mistakes, or how he feels about mistakes:

" To others, being wrong is a source of shame; to me, recognizing my mistakes is a source of pride. Once we realize that imperfect understanding is the human condition, there is no shame in being wrong, only in failing to correct our mistakes.”

Or you can consider the famed Japanese private trader CIS, who has amassed more than USD 150m trading his own money. In his book, which unfortunately has not been translated into English, he gives his best advice to traders:

" Buy stocks that are being bought, and sell stocks that are being sold."

What is interesting is he then added, after a stock has been bought, no one will know where the stock will go after that. What is important is that he understands he may be wrong, and will cut his losses if it is so required. In fact, he seems proud of his skills in cutting losses.

Or take another example. The so-called Phantom of the Pits and his online "book". After many years of success, he has but two, only two, most important nuggets of wisdom, which he calls the 2 Rules. Rule One simply states:

"In a losing game such as trading, we shall start against the majority and assume we are wrong until proven correct! (We do not assume we are correct until proven wrong.) Positions established must be reduced and removed until or unless the market proves the position correct! (We allow the market to verify correct positions.) "

Trader Tom Hougaard has an interesting write-up on Phantom of the Pits, I urge you to spend some time on it:

https://tradertom.com/resource/the-phantom-of-the-pits/
So next time you put on a position, take a second to reflect on your frame of mind. Have you considered that you are most probably wrong to begin with? And things may literally go south with new developments. Are you prepared to follow your trading plan and cut your losses then? At which point would you consider the market has proven you right and you can keep your position? I hope with this mental exercise you will be better equipped to deal with these markets. Remember. The "mental aspects "of trading are more, if not equally as important as your methodology.

Will leave you with this tweet I remembered reading a while back. The author of the tweet said that everyday before he trades, he will read a page from Sun Tzu's Art of War, and another one from the Bhagavard Gita. A reader responded. His answer was, everyday before he trades, he will read the Karmasutra, so that he can understand the various ways he will get f#xked throughout the trading day.

Come to think of it. That may be the best way to start your day in this business. Til then.
 

stanlawj

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I have not exited, just collect dividend every year.
STI is not a trending growth stock but consists of many cyclical businesses (banks, property developers, telecoms). As DevilPlate said, if you don't exit when overvalued, then during the sharp market declines, your total holdings will decrease in value. Then the only cash you have left is your income to buy into the declines. Your portfolio is already so big, so the income is rather small compared to it.

So I think having the skill in fundamental valuation (accounting knowledge) of biz/stocks may help.

The RIGHT way, or rather, the RIGHT mindset. Is to assume that I am already WRONG when I initiate that position.
Nice! As trendfollowers, we want a trending scenario. In terms of applying this rule for trendfollowing, this is how I applied it:

1. Have both upside and downside scenario planned & visualised BEFORE taking the trade.
2. Initiate only partial position (1/3 or 1/2 only of full size) when 1st entry signal triggered. Wait for 2nd entry signal to setup and trigger, to add remaining partial positions as price moves favorably to confirm upside thesis/scenario.
Thus if price is sideways (non-trending), you'll be stopped out only with partial loss instead of the full size loss. Only if price is trending, then you get to add on full position size. See next point.

3. For big trends, there will be choppy starts (false breaks). Therefore, assuming this first, rather than assume resumption of trend, makes sense. I usually trade with 1:0.8 to 1:1 risk-reward ratios to take profit after breakeven, to build a profit buffer that supports full size position later on. This means, my original capital is not put to risk when I go to full size position (or, I risk less of my original capital to support a larger position).

For stocks, volume need to contract during pullback then increase strongly with the trend.

4. As usual, cut loss if the downside scenario manifests. If this happens soon after the 1st initial position, then the loss is not the full size loss because the 1st initial position is less than full size position.
 
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wtaps300

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2. Initiate only partial position (1/3 or 1/2 only of full size) when 1st entry signal triggered. Wait for 2nd entry signal to setup and trigger, to add remaining partial positions as price moves favorably to confirm upside thesis/scenario.
Thus if price is sideways (non-trending), you'll be stopped out only with partial loss instead of the full size loss. Only if price is trending, then you get to add on full position size. See next point.
Very good point, your trading plan must involved some form of varying your positions. Add only when right, cut That's actually Rule 2 offered by Phantom of the Pits. He only has 2 rules actually, his "present to the trading world".

As for the overall debate, 10x our capital? 100x or capital etc. can we even get rich doing this? I think its good to have a target, but the focus must be on the survival, and on the process. have a trading plan. refine/review your plan. don't get blown up (especially for the leveraged trader). accumulate some gains, stay away from big losses (they will happen though!), have realistic goals. keep chipping at it, be proficient at it, accumulate the experience and the knowledge. then usually there will come a period when yr experience and knowledge will come together in some market cycle and that's when you can really rake them in. but we wont know in advance whether this period will ever come.

so back to the process. the things we can control. have a sound trading plan, that suits you. set realistic goals ( 6 to 10% is alright! ), review your results, review your errors, and know that these will take years, a decade maybe.

hope this is useful!
 

limster

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If rarely exit, then how to build up substantial warchest to buy during a sharp decline.

I have retail bonds, SSB, T-bills, US$ bond ETFs, CPF-OA, and monthly passive income.

I am happy to sell my fixed income to buy stocks if the prices is good. During 2020 crash, I sold my SIA bonds at $1.01 to replenish my warchest and buy stocks, for example.

Then after the crash is over, my passive income is used to rebuild my fixed income 'warchest'
 

DevilPlate

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I have retail bonds, SSB, T-bills, US$ bond ETFs, CPF-OA, and monthly passive income.

I am happy to sell my fixed income to buy stocks if the prices is good. During 2020 crash, I sold my SIA bonds at $1.01 to replenish my warchest and buy stocks, for example.

Then after the crash is over, my passive income is used to rebuild my fixed income 'warchest'
Last year both stocks and bonds drop though
 

limster

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Last year both stocks and bonds drop though
If rarely exit, then how to build up substantial warchest to buy during a sharp decline.
I didn't need to sell fixed income last year because there wasn't any 'sharp decline.' I sold my SIA bonds in 2020 at the height of COVID scare, yet I can sell at $1.01 without any loss. That was an example of a sharp decline.

Like many others such as DW, homer123, ASSI, my 2021 dividends collected hit an all-time high, so that cash could be deployed to buy more stocks.


If there is a sharp decline, I got no problems selling my bonds at a loss to buy stocks that are on cheap sale. Once stock market recover, I will still make money. Not to mention that SSB, T-bill, CPF-OA don't drop in price.
 

DevilPlate

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Personally, I took up home equity loan in 2008 to buy stocks.

2020 stocks recover too fast (even though at that point it seems very doom and gloom), so only buy with my available cash.
 

theMKR

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I didn't need to sell fixed income last year because there wasn't any 'sharp decline.' I sold my SIA bonds in 2020 at the height of COVID scare, yet I can sell at $1.01 without any loss. That was an example of a sharp decline.

Like many others such as DW, homer123, ASSI, my 2021 dividends collected hit an all-time high, so that cash could be deployed to buy more stocks.


If there is a sharp decline, I got no problems selling my bonds at a loss to buy stocks that are on cheap sale. Once stock market recover, I will still make money. Not to mention that SSB, T-bill, CPF-OA don't drop in price.
actually i am interested, what kind of returns are you getting for such ; what i would consider low risk balanced portfolio?
 

theMKR

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What is market profile? If its following technical trading, then I just use volume profile. No interest in the small moves, high leverage in day trading. My day trading is only for small profit/income while waiting for major signals to trigger in the longer time frame.

I think you confused capital vs profit.

Of course need to start with some capital. Some start with less, others more. I earn my capital from my job.

But at the end of the day, how many X times through the market alone?

Just take Peter Lim and Chicken Genius as examples. They all more than 10X their initial capital. Adam Khoo side also have traders who more than 10X through crypto.
We also have Master Leong who made mistakes and show us how it can fail, so the information to 10X profit is available, either free or paid.
i think ppl who 10X are amazing.

its 1 thing to get 10X on 1 bet or 1 instrument. but to 10X on the entire portfolio,

the person has to either 100% bet on that 10X
or
10% on a 100X

both are amazing af :s22:
 
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