Roboadvisor: Stashaway vs Syfe

dappermen

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2017
Messages
2,247
Reaction score
166
Yea net deposit will be 0 if payout 20 years. So simple profit will be just current value - net deposit.

erm.....
this is agreeable ONLY when Curr value has alwys been accounted for dividends rec'd and then less of divs wdrawn
and then to use to Total Returns to compute simple profit %

Tot returns is ALL returns gained without minus ALL the dividends opted out/wdrawn hor (total returns keep adding the Returns ignoring your "returns"/divdends wdrawn)
Only such a "concept"/thinking can balance it out

if this part is NOT clearly highlighted, the formula is NEVER gonna be correct!




which is why i kept emphasizing dont ans in parts, if u really wannna explain it pls explain in wholesale/full pict (so long there is a missing puzzle, we couldnt understand)
 

direbmem

Arch-Supremacy Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2005
Messages
11,218
Reaction score
10
Huh simple returns use current value as base? Not Net deposit?
 

gold_eagle36

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2004
Messages
1,402
Reaction score
17
Well they applied net deposit = cash in - cash out.
You wan take out cash (div payout) , net deposit drops. Need to understand that not everyone is buy and hold. A lot of people withdraw when they feel like it and then deposit. So this net deposit simplify things.

I think when you guys want principal. Maybe the word is cost.

Current cost of portfolio = net deposit + div received.

Hence when you receive div, net deposit drops.
 
Last edited:

gold_eagle36

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2004
Messages
1,402
Reaction score
17
erm.....
this is agreeable ONLY when Curr value has alwys been accounted for dividends rec'd and then less of divs wdrawn
and then to use to Total Returns to compute simple profit %

Tot returns is ALL returns gained without minus ALL the dividends opted out/wdrawn hor (total returns keep adding the Returns ignoring your "returns"/divdends wdrawn)
Only such a "concept"/thinking can balance it out

if this part is NOT clearly highlighted, the formula is NEVER gonna be correct!




which is why i kept emphasizing dont ans in parts, if u really wannna explain it pls explain in wholesale/full pict (so long there is a missing puzzle, we couldnt understand)

Ok based on what I to conclude in whole ,

Total returns = current value - net deposit

Current cost = net deposit + div paid out

If you received dividend, your cost remains the same right. That's what you guys want. But the net deposit has to reduce.

Hence, Total returns = current value - current cost + div paid out.

I will close my case here.
 

dappermen

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2017
Messages
2,247
Reaction score
166
Huh simple returns use current value as base? Not Net deposit?


Ya loh! if u use their definition of Net deposits, u will NEVER obtain a correct figure......

the current value was Up when dividends announnced/rec'd
the curr value instantly Dropped upon dividends transf to your bank account.....
so the "net" effect of your current value is "0" mah (nothing gains or lost) be it u like it or not....

hence they made u , use their Total returns to compute simple returns!!!! ie Total returns = all dividends recd and etc......

I didnt even bother to audit/check on their previous "Total"returns for the past 1 yr+
:(

Somehow i felt it is NOT perfect or something is wrong somewhere, i felt ONLY u able to understood my standpoint
of cos i know Stashaway is NOT cheating us cos the $ came back to us , but the computation and Logic.....
Only 1-2 members totally supported Stashaway 's way of thinking leh...what to do?

The reason why previous i didnt bother to check is cos i opted for re-invesmt of div all along
 

James Lee WY

Member
Joined
May 14, 2020
Messages
272
Reaction score
0
should try calculating with money weighted return or time weighted return. Absolute return may not account for compounding effects properly and/or changing portfolio size for those who keep withdrawing. I suggest using TWR. MWR not easy to calculate
 

direbmem

Arch-Supremacy Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2005
Messages
11,218
Reaction score
10
Ok based on what I to conclude in whole ,

Total returns = current value - net deposit

Current cost = net deposit + div paid out

If you received dividend, your cost remains the same right. That's what you guys want. But the net deposit has to reduce.

Hence, Total returns = current value - current cost + div paid out.

I will close my case here.

No I thought Net deposits = total own for funds deposit/withdrawn + dividends withdrawn or deposit.

Assume total own funds deposited/withdrawn = 100, Current value doesn't fluctuate, ideal shd be like this:

No dividend:
Total returns = 0
Current Value = 100
Net deposit = 100

Dividends $5 received, not withdrawn:
Total returns = 5
Current Value = 105
Net deposit = 105

Dividends $5 received and withdrawn:
Total returns = 0
Current Value = 100
Net deposit = 100

So that at all times the cash is tracked on both sides of the equation.

Different forms of returns can be shown via other tabs/ links, should not mess with the dashboard value which should function like a current balance sheet ie. A snapshot at current point in time.

Once net deposits reaches zero, further dividends will result in negative value? Would be quite weird to see -ve deposits?
 

direbmem

Arch-Supremacy Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2005
Messages
11,218
Reaction score
10
should try calculating with money weighted return or time weighted return. Absolute return may not account for compounding effects properly and/or changing portfolio size for those who keep withdrawing. I suggest using TWR. MWR not easy to calculate
I don't like all these weighted and time weighted returns in %. It doesn't show what is important that me. I ever have -ve portfolio absolute returns, and positive weighted returns (forgot its money or time weighted). All I want to know if my portfolio current value is now worth more than the funds i put in. If portfolio
value is worth less, doesn't matter the weighted returns are positive %. Cos of I sell everything I get back less money, consoling myself I have positive % weighted returns is like lying to myself.
 

dappermen

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2017
Messages
2,247
Reaction score
166
i get your point! I know your point! SOrry but may i asked do u buy stocks or ETFs on your own (diy) just to hve a rough knowledge

I know professional tend to use Time-wt returns...but but they have to come out with something ie more simple for Laymen too !!!!

for the final summary that the who closed his case, it looks that his definition is NOT wrong, still he has to clearly define each item carefully, if not no1 wil ever understand what is eg "Cost"
i called that "principal" rather than costs
 

dappermen

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2017
Messages
2,247
Reaction score
166
Let me teach u a way to Understand (in order to under your app) how Stashaway define their "Net deposits"
- u have to keep telling yourself:

net deposits: is All $/cash that crosses the line of your bank account!!!!!!!!
eg u DcA/RSP $50 or u lumpsum 1K into your robo that amt crosses from bank into the RObo, ie Net deposits! (to them)
if u suddenly needed S$300 in urgent need, u wdraw $300 from ur robo & it crosses into ur bank ie Minus deposit
if u opted out dividends, hence divs crosses (wdrawn) from ur robo into your bank , that will impact your NEt deposit too
(So long u think w this perspective u will be "Psycho" into their definition)

So what if Your robo has gotten some dividends rec'd? So long that div recd doesnt crosses your bank account at all, then too bad, that will NOt have any impact to + your net Deposit at all


the impact of the blood dividends will only be added to your that figure : Total Returns (shown in App)
Ref:
https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/131949151-post825.html
 

direbmem

Arch-Supremacy Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2005
Messages
11,218
Reaction score
10
I DIY stocks, ETFs and also DCA via Stashaway / Syfe / Moneyowl / FSM (starting next month).
But I only DCA 100 to 200 per mth for each robo.
Reason being I tend to always think prices are too high when I DIY, so many times didn't take action or waited too long.
DCA will help me take action enter the market alongside while I still speculate or time the market thru DIY, to hopefully enhance my DCA returns.
 

dappermen

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2017
Messages
2,247
Reaction score
166
personally har, yes personnally i felt dont DCA too much , unless u enjoy regularly saving using such a method!!!or that gives u a better discipline

Yes, & yes i know experts been emphasizing the goodness of DCA/RSP , i m sorry i am not too comfy with it , although i understood the concept well......(Dca involved forex too esp if the currency is not in your home currency ie Sgd for some of us)
Still, theories and concepts are still paper/textbks, sorry
I never encourage anyone to time the market too!! never!

I tend to do lumpsum every now and then when i collate enough or i felt it is time too

u r very experienced mah!!indeed i believe in gd stuff shdnt wait too long, some prices are overly too high esp at this time
 
Last edited:

londonray

Junior Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2007
Messages
61
Reaction score
0
thanks to everyone who shared their views here. enjoyed reading your POVs and gaining some knowledge. Decided to dip my toes in syfe reit+ (100%) and SA (regular income 22%) using $250/mth DCA.

Would anyone care to share their referral codes with me for both apps? TIA
 

dappermen

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2017
Messages
2,247
Reaction score
166
thanks to everyone who shared their views here. enjoyed reading your POVs and gaining some knowledge. Decided to dip my toes in syfe reit+ (100%) and SA (regular income 22%) using $250/mth DCA.

Would anyone care to share their referral codes with me for both apps? TIA

cant pm u but hope u could use this

syfe: SRPSR55N


https://www.stashaway.sg/referrals/chunchohzg
 
Last edited:

kurt111494

Master Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
3,095
Reaction score
139
No I thought Net deposits = total own for funds deposit/withdrawn + dividends withdrawn or deposit.

Assume total own funds deposited/withdrawn = 100, Current value doesn't fluctuate, ideal shd be like this:

No dividend:
Total returns = 0
Current Value = 100
Net deposit = 100

Dividends $5 received, not withdrawn:
Total returns = 5
Current Value = 105
Net deposit = 105

Dividends $5 received and withdrawn:
Total returns = 0
Current Value = 100
Net deposit = 100

So that at all times the cash is tracked on both sides of the equation.

Different forms of returns can be shown via other tabs/ links, should not mess with the dashboard value which should function like a current balance sheet ie. A snapshot at current point in time.

Once net deposits reaches zero, further dividends will result in negative value? Would be quite weird to see -ve deposits?

I don't like all these weighted and time weighted returns in %. It doesn't show what is important that me. I ever have -ve portfolio absolute returns, and positive weighted returns (forgot its money or time weighted). All I want to know if my portfolio current value is now worth more than the funds i put in. If portfolio
value is worth less, doesn't matter the weighted returns are positive %. Cos of I sell everything I get back less money, consoling myself I have positive % weighted returns is like lying to myself.

i get your point! I know your point! SOrry but may i asked do u buy stocks or ETFs on your own (diy) just to hve a rough knowledge

I know professional tend to use Time-wt returns...but but they have to come out with something ie more simple for Laymen too !!!!

for the final summary that the who closed his case, it looks that his definition is NOT wrong, still he has to clearly define each item carefully, if not no1 wil ever understand what is eg "Cost"
i called that "principal" rather than costs

Let me teach u a way to Understand (in order to under your app) how Stashaway define their "Net deposits"
- u have to keep telling yourself:

net deposits: is All $/cash that crosses the line of your bank account!!!!!!!!
eg u DcA/RSP $50 or u lumpsum 1K into your robo that amt crosses from bank into the RObo, ie Net deposits! (to them)
if u suddenly needed S$300 in urgent need, u wdraw $300 from ur robo & it crosses into ur bank ie Minus deposit
if u opted out dividends, hence divs crosses (wdrawn) from ur robo into your bank , that will impact your NEt deposit too
(So long u think w this perspective u will be "Psycho" into their definition)

So what if Your robo has gotten some dividends rec'd? So long that div recd doesnt crosses your bank account at all, then too bad, that will NOt have any impact to + your net Deposit at all


the impact of the blood dividends will only be added to your that figure : Total Returns (shown in App)
Ref:
https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/131949151-post825.html

Hi, I kinda get what both of you mean. I am experiencing the same thing with my Syfe REITS+. They deducted the dividend payout amount from the "amount deposited". Also deducted that same amount from the "portfolio value". Made me rather confused. I always thought the amount I deposited in would be recorded as a fixed value, while the portfolio value is the one that fluctuates up and down depending on the market, and dividends will be like an "extra" payout (I didn't opt for them to be reinvested).
 

s0crates

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Messages
595
Reaction score
56
This is terrible returns calculation. Really bad platform.

Hi, I kinda get what both of you mean. I am experiencing the same thing with my Syfe REITS+. They deducted the dividend payout amount from the "amount deposited". Also deducted that same amount from the "portfolio value". Made me rather confused. I always thought the amount I deposited in would be recorded as a fixed value, while the portfolio value is the one that fluctuates up and down depending on the market, and dividends will be like an "extra" payout (I didn't opt for them to be reinvested).
 

dappermen

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2017
Messages
2,247
Reaction score
166
Hi, I kinda get what both of you mean. I am experiencing the same thing with my Syfe REITS+. They deducted the dividend payout amount from the "amount deposited". Also deducted that same amount from the "portfolio value". Made me rather confused. I always thought the amount I deposited in would be recorded as a fixed value, while the portfolio value is the one that fluctuates up and down depending on the market, and dividends will be like an "extra" payout (I didn't opt for them to be reinvested).
i spotted another mistake on app, i noticed tht my total return is less of that dividend amount (wdrawn)

Why is the total return lesser? shouldnt it keep track of all the dividends rec'd regardless of whether wdrawl made??? total returns should be purely ALL returns regdless u wdraw or not

So what stashaway explained to me didnt work here: (emailed them again)
https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/131950820-post830.html
 

paradigm paralysis

High Supremacy Member
Joined
May 29, 2011
Messages
32,265
Reaction score
335
Anyone with uobam? Googled but can't find thread on it. Any reviews?

Posted from PCWX using 阻碍梦想的不是现实 而是不去实现
 

dappermen

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2017
Messages
2,247
Reaction score
166
this is robo thread

Anyone with uobam? Googled but can't find thread on it. Any reviews?

Posted from PCWX using 阻ç¢*梦想的ä¸*是现实 而是ä¸*去实现

if u r ref to UOB robo, i think can click on UOB bank app

UOBam is UOB AM : https://www.uobam.com.sg/index.page
KAYhian is UOB kh (they handles diff matters)
is this the one? digital advisor?
https://www.uobam.com.sg/uobaminvest/individual/index.html

https://seedly.sg/questions/hi-has-anyone-tried-the-uob-robo-advisor-yet-what-are-your-thoughts
 
Last edited:
Important Forum Advisory Note
This forum is moderated by volunteer moderators who will react only to members' feedback on posts. Moderators are not employees or representatives of HWZ. Forum members and moderators are responsible for their own posts.

Please refer to our Terms of Service for more information.
Top