Roboadvisor: Stashaway vs Syfe

[Okenba]

hi guys, i'm currently a uni student that is a complete newbie in terms of investing and looking to start small ah.
Aiming for long term of around 5-10years with like $100/month spare to invest for now at least. Just want to give it a try while i'm still studying.
Any suggestions on what portfolio to go for ?

thank you so much in advance

You should read up more about investments, and then read up about the investment products you are interested in.

For robos, read up not only on the returns, but more importantly, what is in the portfolio, how they select it, when they will change it, etc.

If all you are doing is asking a stranger on a forum what's the best portfolio to buy, you're not investing, you're gambling.

You might win this round, but it won't help you the next round. Winning this round might make you complacent, and cause you to lose more next round.
Losing this round might make you so disillusioned that you won't invest ever again.

Go in with both eyes open. Understand before you throw your hard-earned money in.

Best to learn more about investing when you're young, and then you can really make your money work for you.

 

[kxiang]

You should read up more about investments, and then read up about the investment products you are interested in.

For robos, read up not only on the returns, but more importantly, what is in the portfolio, how they select it, when they will change it, etc.

If all you are doing is asking a stranger on a forum what's the best portfolio to buy, you're not investing, you're gambling.

You might win this round, but it won't help you the next round. Winning this round might make you complacent, and cause you to lose more next round.
Losing this round might make you so disillusioned that you won't invest ever again.

Go in with both eyes open. Understand before you throw your hard-earned money in.

Best to learn more about investing when you're young, and then you can really make your money work for you.

yup, i'm aware that it is important to read up on what i'm investing Just that being a beginner, the more i google, the more information i get and its kinda overwhelming Hence, i wanted some suggestions to point me in a direction to start my research on.

but thank you for the reminder to do my homework before using my money !

 

[Okenba]

yup, i'm aware that it is important to read up on what i'm investing Just that being a beginner, the more i google, the more information i get and its kinda overwhelming Hence, i wanted some suggestions to point me in a direction to start my research on.

but thank you for the reminder to do my homework before using my money !

I don't actually think that Stashaway and Syfe are good for beginners. Beyond maybe Syfe's Reit+

My reasoning is because both their global portfolios are constructed behind a black box. We do not know why they choose the ETFs that they do, we just have to trust that they're doing the right thing. (We can check the exact ETFs and the composition, but far as I can tell, no one tells you why it is apportioned the way it is. Just scan through the various risk levels for SA and you will already see some very different compositions in the portfolios.)

On the flip side, you have Autowealth. Autowealth is very clear. It is just buying the whole market. If Autowealth could, they would just buy VT and be done with it. You know what you're getting with Autowealth. It is Bogle's "buy the haystack" method, thought the choice of ETF is wanting.

MoneyOwl or Endowus with its DFA funds are similar. They are also very clear that they are buying the haystack, with a Value tilt. What exactly or how exactly it is done, I don't know. But the philosophy is clear.

Far as I know, StashAway and Syfe have no such philosophies. They market based on their risk management methodologies. SA's ERAA, and Syfe's ARI. Sounds nice, but not convinced that they will work. To be clear, they seem to be saying that their methodology will help you time the market.

Summary: Buying into SA or Syfe seem to be more about trusting their investment team to time the market. I'm not comfortable with that. If you are, go ahead.

Disclaimer: 100% REIT+ is basically trusting Sreits, and has little to do with any active management on Syfe's part. I'm fine with that.

 

[Mr. Wood]

hi guys, i'm currently a uni student that is a complete newbie in terms of investing and looking to start small ah.
Aiming for long term of around 5-10years with like $100/month spare to invest for now at least. Just want to give it a try while i'm still studying.
Any suggestions on what portfolio to go for ?

thank you so much in advance

wht is yr objective for investment? planning to put a down payment for a flat in 5-10 yrs is diff risk lvl frm planning to go on a holiday 5-10yrs later.
in all likelihood yr life will not change much if the market suddenly crash when u want the money to go holiday. but yr life may be affected if u not enuff money to pay for a flat.

or another way to look at it is how much u need at the end of dis 5-10yrs. den work backwards if u invest $100/mth at which risk lvl can u achieve dat amt.

 

[s0crates]

100% agree on this point. There is outsourced passive investing, and also outsourced active investing using passive instruments.

Good to understand the differences and know what you are getting yourself into. Helps build confidence long term.

I don't actually think that Stashaway and Syfe are good for beginners. Beyond maybe Syfe's Reit+

My reasoning is because both their global portfolios are constructed behind a black box. We do not know why they choose the ETFs that they do, we just have to trust that they're doing the right thing. (We can check the exact ETFs and the composition, but far as I can tell, no one tells you why it is apportioned the way it is. Just scan through the various risk levels for SA and you will already see some very different compositions in the portfolios.)

On the flip side, you have Autowealth. Autowealth is very clear. It is just buying the whole market. If Autowealth could, they would just buy VT and be done with it. You know what you're getting with Autowealth. It is Bogle's "buy the haystack" method, thought the choice of ETF is wanting.

MoneyOwl or Endowus with its DFA funds are similar. They are also very clear that they are buying the haystack, with a Value tilt. What exactly or how exactly it is done, I don't know. But the philosophy is clear.

Far as I know, StashAway and Syfe have no such philosophies. They market based on their risk management methodologies. SA's ERAA, and Syfe's ARI. Sounds nice, but not convinced that they will work. To be clear, they seem to be saying that their methodology will help you time the market.

Summary: Buying into SA or Syfe seem to be more about trusting their investment team to time the market. I'm not comfortable with that. If you are, go ahead.

Disclaimer: 100% REIT+ is basically trusting Sreits, and has little to do with any active management on Syfe's part. I'm fine with that.

 

[revhappy]

What do you guys feel about the rising yields and the presence of long duration bonds in the Robos?

Initially I was excited about Robos, but worst timing I see US yields rising.

Also the Robo portfolios is very US centric rather than global Portfolio. So I am not so sure now.

I am in wait and watch mode, would like to see a market crash and yields normalizing before I put money.

 

[dappermen]

Help! i have issues w Stashaway!!! Correct me if i m wrong:

Sorry i dont know how to successfully attach a photo @ my end......so just read:

Whenever in the past, there are dividends paid to my account , my net deposit/principal will never increase.... (i understd the logic) cos Principal is principal

But now when there is a wdrawal for dividends (parents asked not to reinvest divs fr Nov), why is my principal/deposit reduced accordingly by that wdrawl of divs amount???!

Shouldnt it be that:
The net deposit/principal amt (eg $10,100)shd never change unless the investor wdraw or increase his principal!




Do u get my point? i m displeased w the reply by Stashawy!!!
Rest assured that this will not affect your investment, as it is just a Net Deposit calculation and we'd recommend you to view your 'Total Value' instead as the figure is shown is your actual deposit and returns, showing your overall portfolio performance.
Net Deposit is calculated based on the total, even if you put in new funds, the reflected amount could still be less than deposited. This is because the Net Deposit calculation acts as a backlog for all your transaction activities (deposits + withdrawals).
->>> then why doesnt the net deposit reflect an increase @ all whenever dividends are paid to my account?????






some might qn why did i Now choose not to re-invest the dividends? cos Parents pref to have cash regularly (old mindset that the robos give them regular rewards/divs)
honestly i wasnt happy w stashawy Sg Income (this particular pf) cos have been having negative returns and i dont think in 2021 is really a good time to keep buying in (using the dividends) when sg income has not even given me a Positive returns for past 1yr+

 

[gold_eagle36]

Net deposit by logic is talking about the total net amount deposited into the account.

If you withdraw or there is a pay out, naturally the net deposit will decrease. You need to relook at your understanding.

Nobody said that income portfolio means the portfolio will stay at fix value and pay out steady dividends. The value also fluctuates based on the current market value of the etf holdings.

 

[gold_eagle36]

What do you guys feel about the rising yields and the presence of long duration bonds in the Robos?

Initially I was excited about Robos, but worst timing I see US yields rising.

Also the Robo portfolios is very US centric rather than global Portfolio. So I am not so sure now.

I am in wait and watch mode, would like to see a market crash and yields normalizing before I put money.

There are many factors affecting the market which can be unpredictable. What you just mentioned is about trying to time the market. For robos, it's more suited for long term, 3 -5 years and above where you only consider how much cashflow you can afford to dca in monthly to fulfil a certain goal.

 

[dappermen]

Net deposit by logic is talking about the total net amount deposited into the account.

If you withdraw or there is a pay out, naturally the net deposit will decrease. You need to relook at your understanding.

Nobody said that income portfolio means the portfolio will stay at fix value and pay out steady dividends. The value also fluctuates based on the current market value of the etf holdings.

Then what if there r cash dividends entering my robo account?? Would my net deposit increase then?? (To reflect that crediting)

 

[direbmem]

Dividends added shd be considered returns and not as part of deposit?

 

[dappermen]

Dividends added shd be considered returns and not as part of deposit?

Ya dividends shd be seen as returns ie pf value......if div wdrawn? Hence the portfolio value reduces: that i could understand


Since div added has nothing to do w deposits at all , then why is div wdrawn seen as deposit reduced??? Similarly when cash (div) entered, the net deposit figure was never increase at all
Make it simple, using net effect:
Cash(divs) entered and the exact amt is returned to investor instantly
So isnt a “plus and minus” becomes 0 effect?

Then why is my net deposit reflected now with a decrease....??? (I cant see the logic at all)
U can of cos proceed to deduct it if initially u credit it when cash dividends pays into the robo....b it in whatever Form of cash/div, so long there is cash entering, there must b a reflection of increase somewhere to balance it....


U either reflect it as porfolio value

Not in the deposit figure/principal!

Total net deposits should equate= all cash and rewards/dividends of all form into and less away all form of cash wdrawn (but never once stashawy reflects an increase in net deposits for all the divs received) , correct??!!!??

 

[gold_eagle36]

Net deposit refers to the net amount "pumped" into that portfolio.

When your dividends get reinvested. The net deposit is not increased so that you can see your net profit increase bro as your current value increased.

Net profit = current value - net deposit

End of the day the approach is for you to view how well your portfolio has returned in terms of net profit (current value - net deposit)

When u withdraw dividend, your net deposit decrease so indirectly you will see your net profit increase as the current value doesn't increase since you didn't reinvest dividend.

 

[direbmem]

Dapperman are you looking at Equity100 or REITs+? If REITs+, donyouy have more than 20k invested?

 

[direbmem]

I think if Dividends are reinvested, agree net deposit should not increase. If they are not reinvested, net deposit should increase. Understand for Equity100 dividends are reinvested.

 

[dappermen]

Sg income - stashawy (i m not ref to syfe Reits , i hve Reits+ too, of cos i knew only 20K abv for Syfe then u could opt NOT to reinvest Divs.....) mine is stashawy Sg income - in case u donnt know it has Reits components (supposed to be much MORE but Stashwy stashed it all away , the Reits components became pathetically little now, u need 10K to begin with Sg income(stashawy)! For Syfe Reits - no min. requiremt)


U didnt ans why then shd net deposit decrease when i Opted not to get reinvested when u clearly explained that net dposit shdnt be having any movment b it div in/out...

 

[direbmem]

Ya I think net deposit shd not be adjusted based on dividends. Eg. Deposit =100 on Day 1, Dividends = 5 on Day 2. Net Deposit = 100, returns = 5. Day 3 withdraw 5. Net deposit should still be 100 ba. Not sure what returns will show. Would be weird if net deposit shows 95 when there is 100 in the account.

 

[dappermen]

Net deposit refers to the net amount "pumped" into that pf.

Net profit = current value - net deposit


When u withdraw dividend, your net deposit decrease so indirectly you will see your net profit increase as the current value doesn't increase since you didn't reinvest dividend.

Sorry loh they reduced my curr profit!
They reduced it too when i opt not to reinvest, cos dividends out of my robo
They reduced both curr val and the net deposit so why will there be an net increase of net profit??

Cant b that i as an accounting/finance major cannot even understood the workings of a balance sht ??it is a truly no brainer!!!! i fainted when i saw the chart on my app -stashwy
I audit and check every now and then to ensure it....

 

[dappermen]

Ya I think net deposit shd not be adjusted based on dividends. Eg. Deposit =100 on Day 1, Dividends = 5 on Day 2. Net Deposit = 100, returns = 5. Day 3 withdraw 5. Net deposit should still be 100 ba. Not sure what returns will show. Would be weird if net deposit shows 95 when there is 100 in the account.

U r right now!!! But stashaway replied that my understding is wrong!!( If u been following my thread below) (your eg is a clear and good example for any1 even without financial bkgrd to easily uderstood)

U r so logical! nw

net deposit is Alwys the principal!!! eg u DCA or u RSP or u wdraw for some emrgency!!! Deposit is alwys the principal


i) interests and div earned r Returns /"Profits" mah!!!! they r diff!!!!!!!!!!!

of cos overall performance figure will add in item i)! this is logical to reflect that
So when divs are chose to be payout to the investors! it shdnt impact deposit @ all cos ie my principal!!
but u can reflect a drop i returns! cos it is out liao to my bk a/c!!!

Also, stashwy has never even reflect an increase in my Net deposits for the past 1 yr w them (previously i opted for divs to be reinvested , it is ONLY at the heights of stk mkt then i click NOT to be reinvested - also a best way to audit how they do it)
SYFE and other robos will never touch my net deposit too cos i didnt increase my principal amt !!! but been recv dividends paid to my robo account , they will NEVER touch the deposit amt

cos that is Not an increase in deposit mah (deposit = principal , think alonng this line!!!!!)
Dividends/cash/rewards earned are returns/profits, alwys think along this way in order to balance your both sides

 

[gold_eagle36]

Ok maybe I shouldn't say that net profit will increase when reduce net deposit. Since dividend alr reflected in current value and that drops dividend is paid out.

If we take the other argument that you don't want net deposit to reduce when there is dividend payout ...then how do you want to account it properly.

Net profit = current value - net deposit

Your current value alr dropped with the div pay out. If you don't reduce net deposit, you wont be able to get an accurate figure on net profit /returns.

The returns are not based on adjustment it's purely what is the value now and how much net deposit or amount you have vested. Logic based on formula above.