Roboadvisor: Stashaway vs Syfe

[s0crates]

You are right about point 4, but not right about the double counting part I think. The author is trying to calculate the actual cost of owning the Irish funds versus the US funds, adding the TER to the implied or DWT to be charged.

Anyway, agree on tracking error and bid-ask spread.

Think I made these points before somewhere, but can't find it. Anyway I'll try again.

1. Tracking error is overrated. It should be low, but comparing super low numbers becomes silly, especially since tracking error can be negative or positive errors.

2. Withholding tax rate for Ireland domicile is 15% not 20%

3. Bid-Ask spread is overrated. It's a one time cost, and the numbers are so small compared to the DWT that it's negligible.

4. From what I understand, the performance numbers for Irish domiciled funds are already net of the DWT, since the tax is paid by the fund managers. I believe US domiciled funds performance are gross of DWT, since the tax is withheld by your broker when the dividends from the fund are being paid out to you. I may be wrong about this, hopefully someone else (BBCW?) can confirm or correct. This means the blog post is double counting the DWT for the Irish and Lux domiciled funds.

IMO, I think the blog writer was mostly coming up with BS excuses to try to justify an obvious mistake their robo made during inception instead of doing the right thing which would take a lot more effort.

 

[2474265]

Syfe newsletter: https://invest.syfe.com/real-estate-portfolio/

They annouce real estate focused portfolio
Anyone knows more?

If they offer same fee as for the standard portfolio it's quite interesting. I pay $50 (2x 25) just to buy and sell on DBS Vickers... and then on top pay CDP fee etc

 

[Okenba]

I would be interested to see what Syfe does with reits.

Am quite happy that the Robos are shaking up the market. StashAway and their money market fund. EndowUs and their SRS and CPFIS offerings.

 

[hellfire88]

Syfe newsletter: https://invest.syfe.com/real-estate-portfolio/

They annouce real estate focused portfolio
Anyone knows more?

If they offer same fee as for the standard portfolio it's quite interesting. I pay $50 (2x 25) just to buy and sell on DBS Vickers... and then on top pay CDP fee etc

I would be interested to see what Syfe does with reits.

Am quite happy that the Robos are shaking up the market. StashAway and their money market fund. EndowUs and their SRS and CPFIS offerings.

Lol I think you both can just attend the event on 5th Feb to know the details. Quite sure they will offer something good/interesting if not they won't dare to launch it

I signup already

 

[assiak71]

Let me share with you, the main problem is not the 30% versus 15% Dividend withholding tax for the underlying US exposure for US ETFs. Its paying 30% versus 0% for the underlying non US exposure for US ETFs versus Irish domicled ETFS/funds.

When non-US equities pays a dividend to the country where the fund is domiciled there is a DWT paid to the non-US tax authorities ie PORTFOLIO LEVEL . When the fund pays a dividend to the investor, it may be subjected to the DWT by the tax authorities in the fund's country ie FUND LEVEL

Platforms like Stashaway, Autowealth and Syfe is tax inefficient because of the non-US exposure, paying 30% instead of 0%!

This should be the definitive guide!
https://investmentmoats.com/money-management/guide-dividend-withholding-tax-interest/

On the US side, is it really about the same returns like what stashaway claims?

 

[Sellerion]

Syfe being India Indian run sets off alarm bells. I went to stashaway for a peace of mind.

 

[s0crates]

You do know that stashaway are run by a bunch of foreigners as well right?

Syfe being India Indian run sets off alarm bells. I went to stashaway for a peace of mind.

 

[battledome64]

Syfe being India Indian run sets off alarm bells. I went to stashaway for a peace of mind.[/

Deleted

 

[assiak71]

We are not quite there yet i.e. plain vanilla, low cost, well diversified, all in one funds/platforms for the average singaporean.

But all these robos are a good start

 

[s0crates]

Maybe you want to describe your ideal robo, and which is the closest to it?

We are not quite there yet i.e. plain vanilla, low cost, well diversified, all in one funds/platforms for the average singaporean.

But all these robos are a good start

 

[zuppeur]

Why is it fewer people invest with dbs digiportfolio?

 

[assiak71]

Why is it fewer people invest with dbs digiportfolio?

High fees.

 

[blurpandasg2014]

Why is it fewer people invest with dbs digiportfolio?

I'm vested... Returns so far not as good as endowus or stashaway

 

[battledome64]

Any idea if Dbs digiportfolio will qualify as multiplier investment category

 

[assiak71]

Maybe you want to describe your ideal robo, and which is the closest to it?

Basic criteria (not in any order)
- robo fee <= 0.4%
- fixed income sgd-hedged
- equities globally diversified and UCITS obviously
- low-cost funds obviously

Second level criteria (not in any order)
- overweigh sg equities
- no heavy value tilt

Endowus srs comes closest. But what i dont like is its valuey dimensional world equity fund. It could continue to underperform a market cap fund for years

 

[Okenba]

I'm vested... Returns so far not as good as endowus or stashaway

Would it make sense to pull all your comparisons in a single thread?
Far as I can tell, you are vested in quite a lot of Robos?

 

[tangent314]

Why is it fewer people invest with dbs digiportfolio?

They were fairly late to the party. I wouldn't use a robo myself, but if I'm forced to use one, I would highly consider this one. Yes, the platform and FX fees are higher, but overall they do become the cheapest once you take into account fund fees and dividend withholding taxes. This is because they use LSE listed ETFs while the others use either US listed ETFs or unit trusts with higher fund fees.

Really we are faced with "good funds", "low fees", "easy to use" - pick two.

 

[Okenba]

They were fairly late to the party. I wouldn't use a robo myself, but if I'm forced to use one, I would highly consider this one. Yes, the platform and FX fees are higher, but overall they do become the cheapest once you take into account fund fees and dividend withholding taxes. This is because they use LSE listed ETFs while the others use either US listed ETFs or unit trusts with higher fund fees.

I think there were some issues at launch.
Can't RSP. Not automatically tied to multiplier account.

Something like that. The press wasn't very good.

 

[s0crates]

They hold 5% in cash. That's 5% drag in performance, and assuming a return of 8% that's a recurring cost of 0.4% in terms of lost returns. God knows how are they going to speculate with the broad mandate given to them

They were fairly late to the party. I wouldn't use a robo myself, but if I'm forced to use one, I would highly consider this one. Yes, the platform and FX fees are higher, but overall they do become the cheapest once you take into account fund fees and dividend withholding taxes. This is because they use LSE listed ETFs while the others use either US listed ETFs or unit trusts with higher fund fees.

Really we are faced with "good funds", "low fees", "easy to use" - pick two.

 

[tutonic]

They hold 5% in cash. That's 5% drag in performance, and assuming a return of 8% that's a recurring cost of 0.4% in terms of lost returns. God knows how are they going to speculate with the broad mandate given to them

Clearly if you're this meticulous about your returns, robos aren't for you. Why can't people seem to get that? Robos are for layman investors to get their feet wet since it offers decent returns, relative to the almost no effort or knowledge required on their end.