Stashaway discussion thread

[kumokumo]

Anyone know why when I check the portfolio performance, it is very different when you toggle between USD and SGD?

Looking at "Total returns after fees", USD is showing twice the returns compared to SGD, doesn't make sense.

 

[Okenba]

Anyone know why when I check the portfolio performance, it is very different when you toggle between USD and SGD?

Looking at "Total returns after fees", USD is showing twice the returns compared to SGD, doesn't make sense.

USD currency has weakened against SGD. Returns in SGD will be lower.

 

[kumokumo]

USD currency has weakened against SGD. Returns in SGD will be lower.

But 2X lower?
1000 USD -> 500 SGD, how is this even possible.

If I cash out now, they will pay me based on the the SGD amount?

 

[Okenba]

But 2X lower?
1000 USD -> 500 SGD, how is this even possible.

If I cash out now, they will pay me based on the the SGD amount?

If you invested 140k SGD when rate was 1.4, you would have invested 100k USD.

If your investments earned 1k USD, you would now have 101k USD.
If you convert this back to SGD at current rate of 1.32, you would have 133,320SGD.

So you can make a loss in SGD even when your USD has made a gain.

 

[Project_Xco]

no wonder my portfolio like dying. haha.

 

[minamikaze]

Invested $5k SRS in Stashaway (highest risk profile, 36% Risk Index) and $5k SRS in Endowus (also highest risk, 60% risk tolerance - Dimensional Global Core Equity Fund 50% and Dimensional Emerging Markets Large Cap Core Equity Fund 50%).

Stashaway lost 1.17% so far, Endowus gained 1.17%.

 

[twosix]

dun look at it everyday. u'll go crazy... just check once a month or when there are big news that may affect the market.

 

[Kojo0403]

exactly.. my SGD returns also about half. Then i asked stashaway they don't allow withdraw in USD even if DBS to DBS mca no fees transfer for usd. i suspect they want to earn the conversion fees.

They uses Saxo platform, could be a limitation due to their account set-up?

 

[Kojo0403]

Invested $5k SRS in Stashaway (highest risk profile, 36% Risk Index) and $5k SRS in Endowus (also highest risk, 60% risk tolerance - Dimensional Global Core Equity Fund 50% and Dimensional Emerging Markets Large Cap Core Equity Fund 50%).

Stashaway lost 1.17% so far, Endowus gained 1.17%.

End of the day its not much difference from investing into an active fund or perhaps an active balanced funds with bonds/ stocks.

Though its underlying its ETFs but when you put on an active overlay and additional layer of fees.. it is closer to a typical unit trust instead of a low cost + passive ETF.

 

[twosix]

End of the day its not much difference from investing into an active fund or perhaps an active balanced funds with bonds/ stocks.

Though its underlying its ETFs but when you put on an active overlay and additional layer of fees.. it is closer to a typical unit trust instead of a low cost + passive ETF.

unit trusts have much higher fees, like >1% to 5%. This is why i gave it up long time ago. All the earnings go into the managers' pockets.

 

[Project_Xco]

exactly.. my SGD returns also about half. Then i asked stashaway they don't allow withdraw in USD even if DBS to DBS mca no fees transfer for usd. i suspect they want to earn the conversion fees.

how much dollar returns im sgd and usd?

 

[Kojo0403]

Started below portfolios on 12-Nov-20

Returns in SGD:
General Investing (Risk Index 12) : - 0.90% returns
Income Portfolio (Risk Index 14): + 2.09% returns
General Investing (Risk Index 36): +3.54% returns.

Personal take: Stashaway Moderate and low risk portfolio has significant exposure into US bonds and convertibles. Due to SGD historical strength and withholding tax on US bonds and dividend, this is likely to cause a drag in returns.

Probably Stashaway is useful for Singaporeans who are seeking for higher risk and more agressive portfolio.

Alternatively, one may invest into StashAway maximum risk portfolio + StashAway income portfolio in something like 60:40 split for a moderate portfolio. This allow one to gain exposure to Global growth stocks + local bonds/reits for maximum income gain.

Will continue to update above numbers from time to time.

 

[tutonic]

Started below portfolios on 12-Nov-20

Returns in SGD:
General Investing (Risk Index 12) : - 0.90% returns
Income Portfolio (Risk Index 14): + 2.09% returns
General Investing (Risk Index 36): +3.54% returns.

Personal take: Stashaway Moderate and low risk portfolio has significant exposure into US bonds and convertibles. Due to SGD historical strength and withholding tax on US bonds and dividend, this is likely to cause a drag in returns.

Probably Stashaway is useful for Singaporeans who are seeking for higher risk and more agressive portfolio.

Alternatively, one may invest into StashAway maximum risk portfolio + StashAway income portfolio in something like 60:40 split for a moderate portfolio. This allow one to gain exposure to Global growth stocks + local bonds/reits for maximum income gain.

Will continue to update above numbers from time to time.

Stashaway's Income portfolio is total crap, in my opinion, based on the composition and the actual underlying ETFs. Even Syfe's Managed REIT is even better than Stashaway's Income portfolio, if you want to be more conservative. I've held the Income portfolio for close to a year before moving the local portion of my portfolio over to Syfe.

 

[Kojo0403]

Stashaway's Income portfolio is total crap, in my opinion, based on the composition and the actual underlying ETFs. Even Syfe's Managed REIT is even better than Stashaway's Income portfolio, if you want to be more conservative. I've held the Income portfolio for close to a year before moving the local portion of my portfolio over to Syfe.

Agree that it would be a better alternative with Syfe, since it’s underlying is REITS instead of ETF hence removing a layer of fees.
Similarly, to minimize one cost, he/she should invest directly into its underlying ETF e.g CFA and CLR listed on SGX instead.

 

[tutonic]

Agree that it would be a better alternative with Syfe, since it’s underlying is REITS instead of ETF hence removing a layer of fees.
Similarly, to minimize one cost, he/she should invest directly into its underlying ETF e.g CFA and CLR listed on SGX instead.

It's not necessarily lower cost, once you consider the transaction fees associated with it, and the inability to DCA daily/weekly via Syfe for the REIT portfolio. I mean, you technically can buy daily/weekly CFA/CLR, but it's not cost effective to do so.

 

[Kojo0403]

It's not necessarily lower cost, once you consider the transaction fees associated with it, and the inability to DCA daily/weekly via Syfe for the REIT portfolio. I mean, you technically can buy daily/weekly CFA/CLR, but it's not cost effective to do so.

I thought we can RSP daily/weekly into Syfe REIT portfolio if you just set up a standing instruction with your bank account to make recurring transfer?

All along i think this is what makes Syfe REITs more attractive than a ETF set up under a unit trust structure (more regulatory safeguard) i.e lower cost to RSP.

Though iFast has made it cheaper now to RSP Nikko AXJ REIT- CFA on their platform— only $1 min or 0.08% a month.

DBS invest saver is reasonable as well with less than 1%, no minimum fees.

Lion SREIT ETF- CLR is available on OCBC BCIP but comes with a higher cost at $5 min or 0.30%

 

[tutonic]

I thought we can RSP daily/weekly into Syfe REIT portfolio if you just set up a standing instruction with your bank account to make recurring transfer?

All along i think this is what makes Syfe REITs more attractive than a ETF set up under a unit trust structure (more regulatory safeguard) i.e lower cost to RSP.

Though iFast has made it cheaper now to RSP Nikko AXJ REIT- CFA on their platform— only $1 min or 0.08% a month.

DBS invest saver is reasonable as well with less than 1%, no minimum fees.

Lion SREIT ETF- CLR is available on OCBC BCIP but comes with a higher cost at $5 min or 0.30%

I meant it's no longer cost effective for most RSPs when you consider that the single fee for Syfe REIT also allow you to DCA daily/weekly, but if you were to RSP on other platforms, the transaction fees alone are already more than the max of 0.65% on Syfe a year. DBS Invest Saver is 0.82% per transaction, so it doesn't make sense to do it weekly since that's over 3% in fees. While with Syfe, you pay that max of 0.65% and you can DCA daily if you are so inclined to do so.

Even using iFast, it's 0.08% a month, so close to 1% a year, which makes it still more expensive than Syfe.

All this is not including the fact that Syfe auto-reinvests dividends.

 

[direbmem]

Hard to compare Syfe and FSM as they don't have the same products. But if we are just talking about RSP (buying only, no selling), as long as the RSP amount is more than S$153.80, FSM would be cheaper than Syfe. For example, if you want to accumulate a final $10,000 AUM in a year, if you RSP 40 x $250 over 1 year, Syfe would cost 0.65%*10,000 = $65/year (It's actually a bit lesser as the cost for accrued daily and billed monthly). FSM would cost $1 * 40 = $40/ year. Not that FSM allows such RSP more than once per month anyway.

For the same final AUM, Syfe is better than FSM if you wanna invest small sums (less than $153.80) very frequently ( more than once per month), otherwise for bigger RSP amount FSM is better. But there is actually no identical product to compare between Syfe and FSM.
For the same final AUM, percentages don't add up like what tutonic calculated. Eg. 0.08% x 10 * 1,250 is the same as 0.08% * 1*12,500 and 0.08% * 5 * 2,000 + 0.08% * 2 * 1,250 etc, you get the idea. Pls correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[tutonic]

Hard to compare Syfe and FSM as they don't have the same products. But if we are just talking about RSP (buying only, no selling), as long as the RSP amount is more than S$153.80, FSM would be cheaper than Syfe. For example, if you want to accumulate a final $10,000 AUM in a year, if you RSP 40 x $250 over 1 year, Syfe would cost 0.65%*10,000 = $65/year (It's actually a bit lesser as the cost for accrued daily and billed monthly). FSM would cost $1 * 40 = $40/ year. Not that FSM allows such RSP more than once per month anyway.

For the same final AUM, Syfe is better than FSM if you wanna invest small sums (less than $153.80) very frequently ( more than once per month), otherwise for bigger RSP amount FSM is better. But there is actually no identical product to compare between Syfe and FSM.
For the same final AUM, percentages don't add up like what tutonic calculated. Eg. 0.08% x 10 * 1,250 is the same as 0.08% * 1*12,500 and 0.08% * 5 * 2,000 + 0.08% * 2 * 1,250 etc, you get the idea. Pls correct me if I'm wrong.

Yeah, the percentages don't really add up but the point remains the same.

That being said, your calculation is off. For Syfe, since the fee is deducted at the end of each month, using your example of 40 $250 deposits, you'll end up with the monthly fee being 0.054166666% of your monthly balance. It's technically average monthly balance, but I'll just take it as end-month balance for ease of calculation. So 40 deposits weekly, so 10 months. Total fees will be $29.79167 in fees for first 10 months and 2 extra months of fees based on 10k balance since you've finished buying till $10k in 40 weeks (10 months), is $5.41 a month. So total fee after a year is $40.625. In reality, it'll be lower since they look at average monthly balance (I ignore it and just use month-end balance which is always higher in this example), and if you spread out deposits over 12 months, fee will also be lower.

So yes, Syfe is still the cheapest option for REITs, regardless of the amount, to the best of my knowledge.

 

[direbmem]

Haha my example doesn't necessarily applies to weekly deposits, it could be 40 deposits over a year, in any random frequency, could be 2 in one month and 10 in another month.
The 0.05xx%0is also a bit off as interests are accrued daily based on AUM and billed monthly, not averaged mth balance. So depends on the daily amount in the accountif really wants to count exact percentage. But think that's not the main point here.
Yes, there is no comparably better product for REITs. Just trying to point out the RSP %fees don't add up and is dependent on the RSP amount and AUM for comparison. There is also no comparably better ETF RSP product than what FSM currently have (manual averaging using IB or Tiger is not the auto RSP referred to here). Neither Syfe nor FSM are currently offering what what the other is offering.