Thoughts about ATX 3.0 PSUs

[uselessbum]

As you all probably know by now, PSUs from here on out will be ATX 3.0 with PCIe 5 12VHPWR. However, I find that most of the current offerings are in a somewhat awkward position with regard to PCIE connections.

For example, seasonic vertex has 4 "PCIE/CPU" connections(not to be confused with connector heads on the cable) on the PSU end. If we use two of them for the CPU, that means we actually only have 2 PCIE connections left, aside from the PCIE 5 one.

So my question is, if we have a 3 pcie 8 pin connector GPU, how then? While NVIDIA GPUs will likely stick to 12VHPWR, AMD ones might still stick to conventional PCIE 8 pin x 3. Also, the common refrain is that we should avoid using daisy chain connectors for GPU, especially for the higher end ones. That's to say, only use separate PCIE cables. As I mentioned, we only have 2 pcie connections left on the PSU end so that means we can only use 2 single PCIE cables if we don't use daisy chain ones. Like that how?

That means we got to either use daisy chain or use only one CPU header. Is it ok to use only one cpu header for high end ones like 13900k or 7950x even if we only use stock(ie non-overclcoked)?

Seems like an oversight. The darkpower 13 lagi worse because it only has two PCIE connections on the PSU end, the two CPU connections cannot be utilized as PCIE ones.

Only the MEG AI1300P/1000P has three PCIE connections on the psu end in addition to two CPU ones.

Darkpower 13:

Seasonic Vertex:

MSI MEG:

 

[Koenig168]

....

So my question is, if we have a 3 pcie 8 pin connector GPU, how then? While NVIDIA GPUs will likely stick to 12VHPWR, AMD ones might still stick to conventional PCIE 8 pin x 3. Also, the common refrain is that we should avoid using daisy chain connectors for GPU, especially for the higher end ones. That's to say, only use separate PCIE cables. As I mentioned, we only have 2 pcie connections left on the PSU end so that means we can only use 2 single PCIE cables if we don't use daisy chain ones. Like that how?

...

If you are not using 12VHPWR, then there is no point getting the ATX 3.0 PSUs. Might as well get the current ones.

 

[uselessbum]

If you are not using 12VHPWR, then there is no point getting the ATX 3.0 PSUs. Might as well get the current ones.

I agree.

I have no plans to switch yet, my current superflower one is still good. I was thinking more in future because if I switch PSUs in future, only ATX 3.0 with 12VHPWR ones will be available besides old atx 2.0/2.4 ones. But AMD gpu might still be using PCIE 8/4+4 connectors. And even if get the old ones, I'm not sure if nvidia would still be providing pcie to 12VHPWR adapters for ther GPUs by then. If they stop providing, then I have to get my own(eg cablemod one) and that could run the risk of voiding(because not officially provided or supported by nvidia) my gpu warranty should something go wrong.

I hope AMD will switch to 12VHPWR as well.

 

[86technie]

Daisy chain or rather piggyback isn't recommend by manufacturer.

So it depends on the graphic card, if it have 8 + 8 pin than recommend to use two PCIE power cable.
The new RTX 4000 wise you need four PCIE power cable for it but if you are not using
a card that uses 12vhpwr than there's no need to get the newer ATX 3.0 PSU.

FYI locally only ASUS, FSP, MSI and Gigabyte have ATX 3.0.
The Seasonic Vertex isn't available yet and I have not saw it in any shops.

 

[uselessbum]

Daisy chain or rather piggyback isn't recommend by manufacturer.

So it depends on the graphic card, if it have 8 + 8 pin than recommend to use two PCIE power cable.
The new RTX 4000 wise you need four PCIE power cable for it but if you are not using
a card that uses 12vhpwr than there's no need to get the newer ATX 3.0 PSU.

FYI locally only ASUS, FSP, MSI and Gigabyte have ATX 3.0.
The Seasonic Vertex isn't available yet and I have not saw it in any shops.

Thanks for the reply.

That's where my conundrum comes in. ATX 3.0 is the future. They will stop manufacturing the older ones sooner or later. However, if AMD or even INTEL continue to use 3 x PCIe connectors for their higher end GPUs, then many of the atx 3.0 ones won't be able to satisfy the requirement of using separate PCIe cables because they only have two connections available unless we get the much more expensive models like the MEG AI1300P. Even if still have stock of older PSUs, I'm not sure if NVIDIA will continue to provide 12VHPWR adapter cables for their GPUs. Yet if I get my own one(eg cablemod), I also run the risk of voiding my warranty should something go wrong because it is not officially supported by Nivida.

 

[86technie]

Thanks for the reply.

That's where my conundrum comes in. ATX 3.0 is the future. They will stop manufacturing the older ones sooner or later. However, if AMD or even INTEL continue to use 3 x PCIe connectors for their GPUs, then many of the atx 3.0 ones won't be able to satisfy the requirement of using separate PCIe cables because they only have two connections available unless we get the much more expensive models like he MEG AI1300P. Even if still have stock of older PSUs, I'm not sure if NVIDIA will continue to provide 12VHPWR adapter cables for their GPUs. Yet if I get my own one(eg cablemod), I also run the risk of voiding my warranty should something go wrong because it is not officially supported by Nivida.

ATX 2.0 PSU will discontinue? I don't think so and is unlikely to happened.
Which graphic card are you using?
I would recommend use either official cables or 12VHPWR adapter cables provided than
cablemods.

 

[uselessbum]

ATX 2.0 PSU will discontinue? I don't think so and is unlikely to happened.
Which graphic card are you using?
I would recommend use either official cables or 12VHPWR adapter cables provided than
cablemods.

I would assume that atx 2.0 would be discontinued at some point so as to streamline production. If it isn't going to be discontinued, then my worries don't apply anymore.

I have a 6950xt but I'm not looking to change right now, nor my PSU. I'm just thinking out loud(ie theory) about the future.

 

[86technie]

I would assume that atx 2.0 would be discontinued at some point so as to streamline production. If it isn't going to be discontinued, then my worries don't apply anymore.

I have a 6950xt but I'm not looking to change right now, nor my PSU. I'm just thinking out loud(ie theory) about the future.

If you are using a good PSU 850 watt and above should be fine.
The Radeon 6950XT is a power hungry card so need a decent PSU.
Yap ATX 2.0 won't be discontinued, not to mention ATX 3.0 have yet to became standardized.

As well as ATX 3.0 PSU are very expensive so unlikely for most builders to buy one.
Most will just buy ATX 2.0 PSU than ATX 3.0 to save some money.

 

[ronnie_gogs]

You could just get the 850+watts vertex seasonic if you need 3 extra PCIe connector. My Seasonic 1050 watts was bought in 2012. More than 11 years ago. So if I need to upgrade to a newer ATX3.0 for an upgrade then its about time. But for now still going strong.

 

[uselessbum]

You could just get the 850+watts vertex seasonic if you need 3 extra PCIe connector. My Season 1050 watts was bought in 2012. More than 11 years ago. So if I need to upgrade to a newer ATX3.0 for an upgrade then its about time. But for now still going strong.

Thanks for pointing that out. If I'm not wrong, that one is the platinum seasonic - ie seasonic vertex px. The one that is currently out in other countries is the gold rated one(seasonic vertex gx) like the one in my picture. I have no doubt that the platinum one is going to be much more expensive, chao chao also got at least 400+ for a 850w one. That would mean that it is more or less the same like the MSI MEG one that is already available. Looks like the only way to get 3 PCIe connections is to buy the top end models.

 

[ronnie_gogs]

Selecting a PSU is based on what hardware needs to be connected to it. If 3 PCIe is the graphics card I want to connect then I need to buy the higher end PSU. Reminds me back in 2013 when I was mining crypto I had a simple 4 card mining rig which I built from a Ikea rack. I had to buy a Corsair 1200w to connect 4 GPUs. Mini sauna when everything was running at full blast.

 

[86technie]

Thanks for pointing that out. If I'm not wrong, that one is the platinum seasonic - ie seasonic vertex px. The one that is currently out in other countries is the gold rated one(seasonic vertex gx) like the one in my picture. I have no doubt that the platinum one is going to be much more expensive, chao chao also got at least 400+ for a 850w one. That would mean that it is more or less the same like the MSI MEG one that is already available. Looks like the only way to get 3 PCIe connections is to buy the top end models.

Yes Seasonic prime are the top model so definitely will be expensive.
Most builders will opt for Seasonic Focus GX series will be more than enough.
Seasonic Focus GX-850 retails around $225, the prime will be $265.

Vertex unfornuately since it is not out yet so no pricing so maybe even more expensive.
"Looks like the only way to get 3 PCIe connections is to buy the top end models."
Depends on the graphic card wattage, for the AMD Radeon 6950 it requires 850 watt.

So it's not say need to get high end model but what is the wattage required.
However for my advice for use with AMD Radeon 6950 rather go for 1000 watt PSU.
More headroom, not sure what CPU and any other components you are using.

For 1000 watt psu I would suggest go for the new CORSAIR RM1000E ATX 2.0 PSU around $285.
Prices I shared here are from Fuwell pricelist, if you have time you can walk around SLS
check what are the prices.

For PSU both Seasonic and Corsair are recommend brands.

 

[watzup_ken]

Actually with current ATX 2.0 PSU, you can just buy an adapter to output 600W. Most PSU makers sell one, i.e. Corsair and Seasonic. So I feel there is no reason to quickly rush out to get a ATX 3.0 PSU at this point in time. In fact, I feel the available ATX 3.0 PSUs at this point are not really high end ones, barring the MSI MEG. Even so, I feel the top end ATX 2.0 PSUs still are better built despite some being bigger in dimensions.

 

[royfrosty]

I dont see an issue. Most atx3.0 psu comes with the 12VHPWR connector, they still provide you 1x 12VHPWR connector for both ends OR 1x12VHPWR connector for psu side and 2x 8pin PCIE power. I dont see an issue.

 

[uselessbum]

I dont see an issue. Most atx3.0 psu comes with the 12VHPWR connector, they still provide you 1x 12VHPWR connector for both ends OR 1x12VHPWR connector for psu side and 2x 8pin PCIE power. I dont see an issue.

As I have explained, my concern about atx 3.0 is in regard to GPUs that have 3 x PCIe connectors. Best practice for GPU is to use individual cables for each PCIe connector. That's to say, no daisy chain(ie use a single cable to connect to two PCIE connectors on the GPU). As you mentioned, typical atx 3.0 psu side has 2 x 8 pin PCIe connections on the PSU side. So that means at most can use two single connector PCIe cables, one for each of the two PCIe connections on the PSU side. In the case of a 3 x PCIe connector GPU, how to connect all separately then? That would mean we have to either use daisy chain or remove one CPU header(assuming it's those mixed PCIE cum CPU type of connection on the psu end) in order to fill all 3 separately.

That is based on the assumption that AMD will continue to use 3 x PCIe connectors for their high end GPUs and not switch to 12VHPWR type.

Example:

If a person buys an atx 3.0 psu to use with a 4xxx gpu now, there's no issue. There won't be any issue in future either as long as the person continues to buy Nvidia GPU and Nvidia continues to use 12VHPWR connector. But what if such a person wants to switch to an AMD GPU that uses 3 x PCIe connectors in future? If his atx 3.0 psu does not have another spare(third) PCIe connection on the PSU end, then he has to resort to using daisy chain or remove one CPU header, assuming the cpu connection on the PSU side is able to be used as PCIe as well. Otherwise he has to switch out his PSU for one(older atx 2.0 or a 3.0 that has 3 dedicated ones just for PCIe alone) that has it.

 

[royfrosty]

As I have explained, my concern about atx 3.0 is in regard to GPUs that have 3 x PCIe connectors. Best practice for GPU is to use individual cables for each PCIe connector. That's to say, no daisy chain(ie use a single cable to connect to two PCIE connectors on the GPU). As you mentioned, typical atx 3.0 psu side has 2 x 8 pin PCIe connections on the PSU side. So that means at most can use two single connector PCIe cables, one for each of the two PCIe connections on the PSU side. In the case of a 3 x PCIe connector GPU, how to connect all seprately then? That would mean we have to either use daisy chain or remove one CPU header(assuming it's those mixed PCIE cum CPU type of connection on the psu end) in order to fill all 3 separately.

That is based on the assumption that AMD will continue to use 3 x PCIe connectors for their high end GPUs and not switch to 12VHPWR type.

If a person buys an atx 3.0 psu to use with a 4xxx gpu now, there's no issue. There won't be any issue in future either as long as the person continues to buy Nvidia GPU and Nvidia continues to use 12VHPWR connector. But what if such a person wants to switch to an AMD GPU that uses 3 x PCIe connectors in future? If his atx 3.0 psu does not have another spare PCIe connection on the PSU end, then he has to resort to using daisy chain. Otherwise he has to switch out his PSU for one(older atx 2.0 or a 3.0 that has 3 dedicated ones just for PCIe alone) that has it.

Still not an issue. If you think that a single 12VHPWR and split into 2 Pcie 8pins is considered "daisy chain" no.

The pinouts on a single 12VHPWR can be split individually into 2 pcie 8pins not daisy chain. I don't see how one can see it as a daisy chain? Internally the 12pins split out evenly to 2 8pins. With a few common grounding which can be shared without any complications. Hence many aftermarket cables find it rather easy to make those 12VHPWR cables to 8pin etc.

Is nothing really special about this 12VHPWR.

Some of the CPU/PCIE connector on certain PSU, minimally they have to provide 3 CPU/PCIE connections for 850w.

2 goes to cpu. You left 1 for normal pcie 8pin. And 1 for 12VHPWR. For this config, you just need to use the 12VHPWR to dual 8pin.

If you need 3 8pin. Use the 12VHPWR to dual 8pin and 1 normal 8pin pcie.

Dont have the conception that 12VHPWR to dual 8pin pcie is a daisy chain. Answer is no.

 

[86technie]

As I have explained, my concern about atx 3.0 is in regard to GPUs that have 3 x PCIe connectors. Best practice for GPU is to use individual cables for each PCIe connector. That's to say, no daisy chain(ie use a single cable to connect to two PCIE connectors on the GPU). As you mentioned, typical atx 3.0 psu side has 2 x 8 pin PCIe connections on the PSU side. So that means at most can use two single connector PCIe cables, one for each of the two PCIe connections on the PSU side. In the case of a 3 x PCIe connector GPU, how to connect all separately then? That would mean we have to either use daisy chain or remove one CPU header(assuming it's those mixed PCIE cum CPU type of connection on the psu end) in order to fill all 3 separately.

That is based on the assumption that AMD will continue to use 3 x PCIe connectors for their high end GPUs and not switch to 12VHPWR type.

If a person buys an atx 3.0 psu to use with a 4xxx gpu now, there's no issue. There won't be any issue in future either as long as the person continues to buy Nvidia GPU and Nvidia continues to use 12VHPWR connector. But what if such a person wants to switch to an AMD GPU that uses 3 x PCIe connectors in future? If his atx 3.0 psu does not have another spare PCIe connection on the PSU end, then he has to resort to using daisy chain or remove one CPU header, assuming the cpu connection on the PSU side is able to be used as PCIe as well. Otherwise he has to switch out his PSU for one(older atx 2.0 or a 3.0 that has 3 dedicated ones just for PCIe alone) that has it.

I think you should just get a Corsair 1000 watt to ease your headache.
Cuz higher watt power supply will come with additional PCIE power connector.
Lower the wattage power supply usually have either two or three pcie power connector.
Since you are not using a graphic card that uses the new 12vhpwr than I don't think you need to worry.
Most DIY that build with RTX 4000, TBH most use ATX 2.0 than 3.0 due to PSU pricing are very high for 3.0.
Does this mean these build eventually need to change to 3.0?
No unless that day when ATX3.0 becomes cheap as now such psu easily cost $300 and above.
I hope you could just focus on what you have than worry about the future.
Unless you want to spend $300 for a ATX3.0 PSU despite you are not using a RTX 4000 please go ahead.

 

[uselessbum]

Still not an issue. If you think that a single 12VHPWR and split into 2 Pcie 8pins is considered "daisy chain" no.

The pinouts on a single 12VHPWR can be split individually into 2 pcie 8pins not daisy chain. I don't see how one can see it as a daisy chain? Internally the 12pins split out evenly to 2 8pins. With a few common grounding which can be shared without any complications. Hence many aftermarket cables find it rather easy to make those 12VHPWR cables to 8pin etc.

Is nothing really special about this 12VHPWR.

Some of the CPU/PCIE connector on certain PSU, minimally they have to provide 3 CPU/PCIE connections for 850w.

2 goes to cpu. You left 1 for normal pcie 8pin. And 1 for 12VHPWR. For this config, you just need to use the 12VHPWR to dual 8pin.

If you need 3 8pin. Use the 12VHPWR to dual 8pin and 1 normal 8pin pcie.

Dont have the conception that 12VHPWR to dual 8pin pcie is a daisy chain. Answer is no.

Even if that is not considered daisy chain, how do you split the 12VHPWR into 2 PCIe ones? Modify cable ourselves? Or use a 2 X PCIe to 12VHPWR adapter? Either method is not sanctioned by AMD, Nvidia or even the PSU makers themselves. So that means if something goes wrong, warranty is out of the window.

 

[KleoZy]

hmm even with the new 12VHPWER on PSU which are ready for ATX 3.0.. whats the issue, there are still normal 8pin PCIE connectors ah.. if you using old GPU then use the 8pin PCIE lor, as what I see here there are total of 5. so basically you can use either.. no need to worry about GPU old or new. both can use.

 

[KleoZy]

Even if that is not considered daisy chain, how do you split the 12VHPWR into 2 PCIe ones? Modify cable ourselves? Or use a 2 X PCIe to 12VHPWR adapter? Either method is not sanctioned by AMD, Nvidia or even the PSU makers themselves. So that means if something goes wrong, warranty is out of the window.

for PSU without. all cables tailored to use the 12VHPWR connectors are QC Tested (though sometimes mishaps will happened but very rare) if you are getting this Vertex PSU, just use whatever connector fits your GPU lor. anyway 1 8pin is 150watts ma.. even if you plug 4 8pin to one 12VHPWR, it will only draw power that is needed on your GPU. nothing to worry about.