Upcoming R2R DAC: Schitt Yggdrasil

[derazor]

1)Warm up time issue(Ygg is said to require 60hours or so?) and also lack of burn-in?(R2R dacs tend to require much much more burn in hours, in the region of hundreds of hours)
2)Bad listening Env. for auditioning, they have to turn up the volume really loud.(our ears tend to naturally tune into high frequency sounds at higher volumes.)
3)Not enough sampling time and material(everything should be rushed, given the amount of people wanting to listen)
4)Equipment pairing issues? (We don't know what kind of setup there)

Best to wait for the product to be sold first then we can get more concise and confirmed reviews from users and reviewers.

Basically it's overhyped by loser P guy. Try before buy

 

[xuan87]

Basically it's overhyped by loser P guy. Try before buy

I won't say that it's overhyped by purrin. There are some who have commented that his setup was the best in the entire show.

In the meantime, I'll keep an open mind and wait for more reviews and impressions. Someone said that the order page is set to go live this week.

I still think that this dac has a lot of potential as accuracy and details is a sound signature that not many like.

In the meantime, will like to ask if people mind expanding this thread to be a discussion of all r2r dacs rather than just the Yggdrasil? I'm interested to know all the various options out there but there is scant information on this. Thanks!

 

[derazor]

sauce : http://www.head-fi.org/t/693798/tho...d-why-delta-sigma-sucks/3780_20#post_11483666

http://www.teradak.com/products/21.html

This is what I was quoted. Please note that it may NOT be current as this was some months ago. The DF1700 may be upgraded using the same upgrades as are available for Parasound and other DACs though they haven't tested them as working above 48k, so YMMV.

================================================================
(1) DIR9001+DF1700+PCM63P-K*2 + BUF03+OPA627+AD797
Paypal price $396 USD
(2) DIR9001+DF1700+PCM63P-K*4 + BUF03+OPA627+AD797
Paypal price $452 USD
(3) DIR9001+DF1700+PCM63P-K2*2 + BUF03+OPA627+AD797
Paypal price $452USD
(4) DIR9001+DF1700+PCM63P-K2*4 + BUF03+OPA627+AD797
Paypal price $509 USD
All of the chips except dir9001 are refurbished. All of the prices DO NOT include shipping fee.

>> Price maybe outdated.

 

[xuan87]

sauce : http://www.head-fi.org/t/693798/tho...d-why-delta-sigma-sucks/3780_20#post_11483666

Thanks! I was actually looking at TeraDak for their NOS DACs, didn't know that they have R2R DACs too. At 500USD, it's certainly more affordable than the rest.

The only "cheaper" one that I know of is the portable one by MyST, the DAC 1866.

 

[dqwong]

Basically it's overhyped by loser P guy. Try before buy

Going to use a pc graphics analogy here.

Eg if you are used to standard SRGB monitor for quite sometime, then one day you decide to upgrade to a wide gamut monitor, at the first few days of usage, you might find the colours to be overly saturated and unrealistic, but after a while your eyes/brain gets adjusted to the colours and it's all ok. However if you were to change back to a standard SRGB monitor all over again, you might find it to be too dull and lifeless.

Same thing could be applied to the Ygg, on first listen many might find the ygg to be overly bright and too detailed, but overtime and longer listening periods like purrin did, his hearing sort of adjusted?

Although his choice of words for some equipment/manufacturer/audio engineer can be sometimes borderline overbearing or offensive(in audiophile world setting), I won't label him as a loser as he does offer his unique POV and I have quite many times in agreement with his subjective assessment of gears

Although I would take note of his American residency and the tendency of bias towards made in the USA products/US manufacturer that have made friends with him(Schitt), wtf he has early access to Preproduction ygg

 

[limster]

Can someone recommend a usb dac (can be USB powered or AC powered) in the US$300+ range for desktop PC use?

I'm currently using a NuForce uDAC-2 and while the volume control is useful, I don't hear much improvement over my motherboard sound outputs (using Sennheisser HD598).

I also have a Benchmark DAC1 for my other system and there is a clear difference, but don't want to pay so much for a DAC2.

 

[derazor]

Going to use a pc graphics analogy here.

Eg if you are used to standard SRGB monitor for quite sometime, then one day you decide to upgrade to a wide gamut monitor, at the first few days of usage, you might find the colours to be overly saturated and unrealistic, but after a while your eyes/brain gets adjusted to the colours and it's all ok. However if you were to change back to a standard SRGB monitor all over again, you might find it to be too dull and lifeless.

Same thing could be applied to the Ygg, on first listen many might find the ygg to be overly bright and too detailed, but overtime and longer listening periods like purrin did, his hearing sort of adjusted?

Although his choice of words for some equipment/manufacturer/audio engineer can be sometimes borderline overbearing or offensive(in audiophile world setting), I won't label him as a loser as he does offer his unique POV and I have quite many times in agreement with his subjective assessment of gears

Although I would take note of his American residency and the tendency of bias towards made in the USA products/US manufacturer that have made friends with him(Schitt), wtf he has early access to Preproduction ygg

Yeah lor that's what I felt and his blanket statement that DS DAC are not good is also improper.

Anyway can test your R2R ?

BTW what is the diff between 1702/4, 1504 and PCM63 ? 1704 and PCM63 same level?

 

[xuan87]

Can someone recommend a usb dac (can be USB powered or AC powered) in the US$300+ range for desktop PC use?

I'm currently using a NuForce uDAC-2 and while the volume control is useful, I don't hear much improvement over my motherboard sound outputs (using Sennheisser HD598).

I also have a Benchmark DAC1 for my other system and there is a clear difference, but don't want to pay so much for a DAC2.

I'll probably just go with a Modi 2, Modi 2 Uber, or a JDS ODAC. Currently using an ODAC. I tested the Modi+Magni combination and found it better than my ODAC+O2 combination. I'm assuming that Modi 2 sounds at least as good as, or better than the Modi 1.

 

[derazor]

I'll probably just go with a Modi 2, Modi 2 Uber, or a JDS ODAC. Currently using an ODAC. I tested the Modi+Magni combination and found it better than my ODAC+O2 combination. I'm assuming that Modi 2 sounds at least as good as, or better than the Modi 1.

wyrd + modi 2.0 + magni 2.0

 

[dqwong]

Yeah lor that's what I felt and his blanket statement that DS DAC are not good is also improper.

Anyway can test your R2R ?

BTW what is the diff between 1702/4, 1504 and PCM63 ? 1704 and PCM63 same level?

TDA1504 is the oldest design and is Non-OverSampling(NOS). It can sound grainy but it's more time-domain accurate, meaning that music can sound more fast.

PCM63 is made with a older silicon fabrication technology which means the internal wiring is much wider and it will be able to deliver a higher current output vs the newer PCM170x chips. However it only support up to 16bit 48khz. It's probably the best dac chip for cd audio grade content. That's why you see why dac designers like kingwa of audiogd combing so many dac chips (8 x PCM1704UK) in the audiogd master7 so as to provide a higher current delivery as well as lowering distortion.

high electrical current output of the dac chip is important in recreating the bass slam and dynamics of the music.

PCM1704 and PCM1702 are pretty similar internally, just that PCM1704 accepts 24bit input. also they support up to 192KHz.

Do note there are several variants of the same chip:
PCM1704
PCM1704J
PCM1704UK

With the UK having the best specs.

 

[shadow84]

wyrd + modi 2.0 + magni 2.0

Is the wyrd really useful or just placebo effect?

 

[dqwong]

Is the wyrd really useful or just placebo effect?

My experience is that wyred does affect the sound but it's subtle. Adds focus to the music; Bass has more definition and background is more darker.

It really does help if your pc is electrically noisy, as in your dac gets affected by random electrical buzzing noise or your dac is facing some kind of disconnection or weak power issue(especially with laptops).

Many have reported great results with non-self powered usb dacs

However I recommending won't spend $ on it until you upgrade other components in your chain to a decent level first. (HD600 and above gears)

Basically wyred is a powered usb hub with reclocking of the data stream

 

[pyu]

Yeah lor that's what I felt and his blanket statement that DS DAC are not good is also improper.

IMHO, he is entitled to his opinion.

If you listen closely to some of the analog stuff in some older equipment (even say, your dad's old Pioneer receiver/integrated amp), there is actually a sound characteristic difference between them and the newer equipment produced in the past decade. Biggest difference is in the Sabre-based (ESS9018 stuff) that is what most high priced makers are turning to.

It is a pity that some of the older tech is becoming so expensive due to the DAC component makers not making them anymore.

And yes, there is an obvious bias to Schitt. But that is how stuff rolls I guess since they are all from headfi.

 

[dqwong]

Amongst the modern Sigma Delta dac, ES9108S sounds really good with its hyperdetailed sound, especially with higher bitrate but it still suffers from being too digital sounding(one note bass, treble glare and closed soundstage). IMHO, it sounds closest to R2R than other sigma delta dacs(which all tend to sound filtered, veiled with missing details or dull in some ways).

If I were to describe R2R with one word and the word would be organic. It's the level of subtle refinement that you don't quite notice with sigma delta, especially with live music where the clapping of the audience has texture and echos that make your mind feel as if you are in the live concert and not feel like you just playing back a recording of concert.

if you seek the most realistic sounding music, I recommend all who can afford the higher price tag to step up to the world of the R2R dacs, even if it's older design with limited bit depth and sampling rate. In audiophile world, old design doesn't mean it's worse off.

But first you have to make sure your amp and headphones are up to level.

Btw, gaming with r2r dac is very amazing, especially with RPG that have epic soundtracks.

 

[derazor]

Amongst the modern Sigma Delta dac, ES9108S sounds really good with its hyperdetailed sound, especially with higher bitrate but it still suffers from being too digital sounding(one note bass, treble glare and closed soundstage). IMHO, it sounds closest to R2R than other sigma delta dacs(which all tend to sound filtered, veiled with missing details or dull in some ways).

If I were to describe R2R with one word and the word would be organic. It's the level of subtle refinement that you don't quite notice with sigma delta, especially with live music where the clapping of the audience has texture and echos that make your mind feel as if you are in the live concert and not feel like you just playing back a recording of concert.

if you seek the most realistic sounding music, I recommend all who can afford the higher price tag to step up to the world of the R2R dacs, even if it's older design with limited bit depth and sampling rate. In audiophile world, old design doesn't mean it's worse off.

But first you have to make sure your amp and headphones are up to level.

Btw, gaming with r2r dac is very amazing, especially with RPG that have epic soundtracks.

actually from what I read, R2R also not all pros but also got cons. too technical. So SD also not all cons also got good. Ultimately like IEM 1 dynamic or 10 BA, what comes out the sound must be good and also suits your taste.

 

[BlurRhino]

So is this a R2R dac?

http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/DAC1911/DAC19EN.htm

 

[dqwong]

So is this a R2R dac?

http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/DAC1911/DAC19EN.htm

yes, TI PCM1704UK = R2R DAC

 

[dqwong]

actually from what I read, R2R also not all pros but also got cons. too technical. So SD also not all cons also got good. Ultimately like IEM 1 dynamic or 10 BA, what comes out the sound must be good and also suits your taste.

Sigma Delta DAC tend to have a similar kind of subtle grainy noise, that is like FM static/Pepper shaker kind of noise that is only noticeable when the music gets complicated or chaotic(sudden loudness changes). This is especially more noticeable on Realtek Dac(PC onboard sound) and Crystal Semiconductor DACs found on Apple Ipod/Iphones. On a bad/cheap Sigma Delta DAC, it can sound as if your music is play back from Radio FM-ish source instead sounding like your CD music(clean and pristine sounding).

Not all Sigma Delta are bad sounding/sh1t(as purrin puts it), infact, those based off Analog Devices AD1955 is pretty well respected for Jazz and Classical music. Also the ASAHI KASEI AKM4396/4399 doesn't have much of the sigma delta harshness/FM noise. ES9018S is quite free from the sigma delta noise. Also dual ES9018K2M is not even close to 1 single ES9018S(in stereo mode) for sound quality(K2M has very noticeable sigma delta noise/grain in certain music genre).
Not all R2R have technical/detailed sound. Those based off TDA1541A tend to sound more grainy and forgiving. As for those based off PCM1704, it depends on the DSP and Digital Filter.

The cons to R2R is the cost of the dac chip and also it doesn't support DSD without downsampling.

Some of the dacs like Audio-gd can be adjusted to suit your listening taste.

8x oversampling, 4x oversampling, 1x oversampling
Digital Filter Roll off: -130db, -90db, -60db

 

[derazor]

Ygg status update

http://www.head-fi.org/t/667711/new-schiit-ragnarok-and-yggdrasil/5360_20#post_11498480

 

[derazor]

yes, TI PCM1704UK = R2R DAC

Seems like for RBCD 16/44 PCM6x( esp 63 ) and not PCM170x is preferred.
Hence, if need hi-res 170x is the way to "go"