Eczema

[Dreamerific]

I'm glad you acknowledge that. Yet, the majority of the studies you presented do not show this comparison. How do you reconcile that?


I'm aware of most arguments and studies vilifying meat consumption. They have a few things in common:
1. Overconsumption of meat - not what I'm advocating
2. Consumption of meat as part of an unhealthy diet - not what I'm advocating
3. Consumption of inferior kinds of meat such as processed meats - not what I'm advocating
Throwing these studies at me, is, again, straw man arguments, that you keep doing over and over again.


No it's not, though I've been reading up on training and nutrition, and applying it, for over a decade now. Which institute are you a nutritionist at then?

My experience in research in a different field also allows me to understand structure in research and evaluate their quality better than someone without formal higher education. What institute do you perform research at then?


Notice a trend here in that I take the time to dissect your entire post and reply and rebut individually to points you made, because I can and because that's how responsible discussions are performed. You, otoh, quote my entire post then reply to whatever you please, with logical fallacies, because you can't rebut my points. It's pretty much kellyanne conway's playbook. Who's the one without logic here again?

I am not taking too much time responding to you because I cannot be bothered to. Similar to your earlier posts, you simply spam "source?" to everything without doing any research contrary to what you believe. I am not going to do your homework for you just because you have a severe case of confirmation bias and living in denial just because you like the taste of meat and finding every reason and research studies to support your lifestyle.

There is no argument against a vegan diet. The only legitimate argument is if you're stuck at the north pole where there are no plants or during winter season, and you had to hunt/fish in order to survive, even though we humans evolve to be able to adapt to eat some meat solely for emergency situations, our body can't thrive on it long-term. Every legitimate health organization promotes a plant based diet. Period. All the top institutions and medical doctors disagrees with you, they do actual research and have been treating patients for several decades. What can you say about that?

If you do not believe me and cannot be bothered to look at the evidences provided by Dr Neal Barnard, and Dr Mcdougall which you can conveniently watch on youtube, you can do your own research if you want, simply find a patient, take meat out of their diet, cancer goes away, give them meat again, cancer returns, take them out, cancer goes away again, which many of these doctors have already tested. Same for eczema, diabetes, obesity, atherosclerosis, and many other illnesses.

Why did you dismiss Dr Neal Barnard's credentials and research in my previous post?

I go to school for human physiology, nutrition, injury rehab, sports science, biochemistry, etc, etc, etc. Also currently doing new research work in the field of physical performance.
Not gonna reveal anything more than that cause I will be working with national athletes in the near future. I am in the field of facilitating peak physical performance.

I can't rebut your points because you have no points. Remember, every vegan was once a heavy meat eater just like you. Until you actually study the material and research the opposite of your confirmation bias will you then learn.

Cheers and peace.

https://green.harvard.edu/tools-resources/video/empirical-case-plant-based-diet
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/plant-based-diet-reduced-diabetes-risk-hu-satija/

 

[Dreamerific]

hello guys

just to share what i found. i found out my eczema due to food i ate...

i cannot take gluten(wheat) or dairy. It will cause flare ups. Once i avoid, it doesn't itch so i don't scratch. But once i do, feel itchy immediately. I think it helps if u have eczema problem and u keep a food journal.

Also eczema ish autoimmune problem. Basically what happen ish ur gut having problems. When u have allergies with certain food, it causes inflammation. To signal the inflammation, it actually goes to your skin. The food allergies ish due to leaky gut as ur gut walls are damaged.

If u have those gut related problems like IBS or candida or bloating after meals, very likely also linked to eczema cos they are all linked. So until u cure your gut, your eczema ish staying.

It has nothing to do with whether a meat diet or vegetable diet helps to heal eczema. Ish more of sifting out what you are allergic to and then rebuilding ur gut wall...

You do know that meat contains many different chemicals, hormones, heavy metals, anti-biotics that actually cause gut problems, and autoimmune problems, spike estrogen levels in both guys and girls, not to mention almost every other health problems in the first place! This includes seafood and poultry.

You can sift through and try to manage eczema by avoiding dairy, which you are right to do so because humans allergic to lactose in the first place. Remember those whey/casein protein farts/burps for those lifters out there, you are not absorbing the advertised amount of protein simply because your body is unable to digest it. A scam by the supplement industry.

But you will never truly be well unless you go vegan. Cancer and diseases takes about 15 - 20 years to develop before it is surfaced. You want to prevent or wait 20 years later and get "early screening" which is already too late and is just a scam by the medical industry, not to mention chemotherapy has a low success rate.

And the average joe wonder why they get strange illnesses when they think they are eating a "clean healthy diet".

A clean healthy diet is an unprocessed vegan diet.

 

[galapogos]

I am not taking too much time responding to you because I cannot be bothered to.

No, you don't because you cannot. You cannot, as an academic and as a researcher, make an unsupported claim, and then say you cannot be bothered to respond to respectful, logical, evidence based criticism of said claim at the first sign of disagreement. It is intellectually dishonest.

Similar to your earlier posts, you simply spam "source?" to everything without doing any research contrary to what you believe.

When you make a claim, such as "veganism cures eczema", the onus is on you, the claimant to provide evidence. Asking for evidence is a perfect reasonable request, and rejecting the claim due to a failure to provide such evidence is a perfectly logical reaction.

I am not going to do your homework for you just because you have a severe case of confirmation bias and living in denial just because you like the taste of meat and finding every reason and research studies to support your lifestyle.

Oh, so now you're adding ad hominem to your repertoire of logical fallacies. Awesome. Just to be clear, I did not say I "like the taste of meat", I said "I do love a good steak". Contrary to veganism beliefs, us omnivores are quite a varied bunch, and loving steak doesn't mean loving the taste of all meats. Let it be clear too that now you're also saying that just because someone loves eating good steak (or the taste of all meat), one has confirmation bias. Also let it be clear that I'm not supporting any lifestyle, I'm just questioning the rationale of a diet that excludes whole food groups that has not been shown to be harmful, and is in fact beneficial, to human health.

There is no argument against a vegan diet. The only legitimate argument is if you're stuck at the north pole where there are no plants or during winter season, and you had to hunt/fish in order to survive, even though we humans evolve to be able to adapt to eat some meat solely for emergency situations, our body can't thrive on it long-term.

Actually, humans have thrived on an omnivorous diet for a very, very long time. If humans had stuck with veganism, you and I would not be debating about this right now because humans would have been wiped out a long, long time ago before Vitamin B12 supplementation/fortification was a thing.

Every legitimate health organization promotes a plant based diet. Period. All the top institutions and medical doctors disagrees with you, they do actual research and have been treating patients for several decades. What can you say about that?

Hold on. Last I checked you're not promoting a plant based diet. You're promoting veganism, which is the elimination of all non-plant based foods. A plant based diet and veganism is quite different. Omnivores like me can be on a plant-based diet, and be very healthy indeed! I assure you that while I do love a good steak, I also do love a good kale and spinach salad, or stir fried kailan, or sambal kangkong!

So based on your belief, are you saying ALL top institutions promote veganism? If so, I urge you again to back up this claim with evidence

If you do not believe me and cannot be bothered to look at the evidences provided by Dr Neal Barnard, and Dr Mcdougall which you can conveniently watch on youtube, you can do your own research if you want, simply find a patient, take meat out of their diet, cancer goes away, give them meat again, cancer returns, take them out, cancer goes away again, which many of these doctors have already tested. Same for eczema, diabetes, obesity, atherosclerosis, and many other illnesses.

Wow. Have you heard of this person called Steve Jobs? I believe he was largely a vegan (definitely "plant-based"). Guess what he died of?
Source: http://www.nbcnews.com/health/strange-eating-habits-steve-jobs-119434

Why did you dismiss Dr Neal Barnard's credentials and research in my previous post?

I'm not so much dismissing the person. I'm just looking at the evidence/research presented and find that lacking. However, now that you've mentioned it, I did do a bit of digging up on this "Physican's Committee" that he's the head of.

From Wikipedia of Neal Barnard - In the 1990s, Quackwatch included Barnard in its list of "Promoters of Questionable Methods and/or Advice."

From Wikipedia of PCRM - The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM) is a non-profit research and advocacy organization based in Washington, D.C., which promotes a vegan plant-based diet, preventive medicine, alternatives to animal research, and encourages what it describes as "higher standards of ethics and effectiveness in research."[1] Its primary activities include outreach and education about nutrition and compassionate choices to healthcare professionals and the public; ending the use of animals in medical school curricula; and advocating for legislative changes on the local and national levels.

The National Council Against Health Fraud has criticized PCRM as being "a propaganda machine" and the American Medical Association has called PCRM a "pseudo-physicians group" promoting possibly dangerous nutritional advice. The PCRM is an advocacy group, and hence, contrary to what you said earlier, they DO have an agenda - to promote veganism! Sorry, I think I'll listen to the NCHR and AMA before the PCRM.
Also look here - "Less than 5 percent of PCRM’s members are physicians". They're also funded by PETA, so saying that "alot of meat and dairy industry and pharmaceutical companies fund" other studies is sorta hypocritical in light of this.

Anyway, apart from the "guru" and his organization, let me reiterate this point in case you have missed it. In fact, since I have a bit of time, let me highlight what's wrong with making the conclusion that a balanced diet consisting of meat and other foods is bad for health based on the 100 studies you included. I'm only going to critique the first few, but making the argument based on the rest of the studies suffer from the same problem.

Studies 1-2 measure specific compounds within the human body, and have nothing to do with the argument. In particular, study 2 mentions advanced glycation end products (AGEs) as gerontotoxins, present in meat, and exacerbated by high heat cooking/charred food. This is not in question. However, the overall effect of this in terms of the difference it makes in human mortality seems to be negligible at best. It is also worth noting that while plant based foods themselves may have less inherent AGEs, vegetarian/vegan diets have actually been shown to cause more of an increase in plasma AGEs than omnivorous diets. (Source 1 and source 2). So, it's not always as simple as to say that because certain foods have more/less of compound x, they will cause more/less of an increase of compound x in the body. The interactions of foods with other foods, and the body, is complicated.

Study 3-4 mentions arachidonic acid which is actually a conditionally essential fatty acid that your body needs to function properly. It's also an omega-6 fatty acid, overconsumption of which causes inflammation. It doesn't mean eating meat will cause excessive inflammation, because many plant-based foods are high in omega-6 fatty acids as well, such as canola oil. Also, interesting, algae, one of the only food sources of Vitamin B12 for vegans, and also what you promoted eating, is also the richest plant source of arachidonic acid. Oops. If you have any nutrition/research background you should know this.

Studies 5-6 mention high fat animal meals. You actually didn't link to study 6, but study 5 is an acute study which has very little relevance to the long term well-being of a person. Case in point, if you measured markers of health immediately after a person exercises, you'd probably conclude that he is worse off than right before he exercised. The acute effects of exercise to the human body isn't good - muscles are broken down, there're high levels of catabolic hormones, indicating high stress levels. Does that mean exercise therefore is bad?

Studies 7-9 were all linked to the same, wrong/irrelevant study "The capacity of foodstuffs to induce innate immune activation of human monocytes in vitro is dependent on food content of stimulants of Toll-like receptors 2 and 4". Again, this is a "transient" effect, and has little bearing on long term effects.

Study 10 also measures an acute response, and uses a meat-only diet, which is not what I'm advocating. It also suggests all inflammation is bad. This is not the case. Also, as I've said above, many plant-based foods trigger inflammation as well.

Study 11 is an observational study that studies animal fat. It cannot prove causation, It's also no surprise that people who eat diets high in saturated fats also tend to eat other unhealthful foods, and have generally less healthy lifestyles.

Study 12 - another study that only measures correlation, not causation. It cannot be used to "prove" anything.

Study 13 shows bad farming practices in the meat industry. Bad farming practices are bad, and should be avoided whenever possible, but let's not pretend that such bad farming practices are only prevalent in the meat industry. If you're read about exploding watermelons or EWG's dirty dozen, you'd know the problem exists both sides of the fence.

Study 14 - another study on a single compound (cholesterol) on a multi-variable problem that can establish no causal link.

People are not objective. Data is. People are charismatic. People have agendas. There have been many people who are highly educated and have great credentials in their chosen fields, many of whom are charismatic and are able to present their points and convince people, but they have also been shown to be wrong. Case in point - Robert Lustig, who seems to be convinced that fructose is the 1 evil ingredient that causes obesity and a multitude of illnesses. He has not been able to support his view in an online debate with Alan Aragon. I tend to be wary of people who make extreme claims that eliminating 1 "evil" ingredient/food type, or eating 1 "magic" ingredient/food type, will lead to significantly better health. The human body sadly doesn't work like that, and they usually have agendas to push.

I go to school for human physiology, nutrition, injury rehab, sports science, biochemistry, etc, etc, etc. Also currently doing new research work in the field of physical performance.
Not gonna reveal anything more than that cause I will be working with national athletes in the near future. I am in the field of facilitating peak physical performance.

Good! I love researchers! We need more people who bring research work and apply them to real world athletes. I wish you all the best! However, I would urge you to not fall into the trap of "magical" diets and "evil" foods. Stay in school, learn more, read more widely. Remember, eat too much vegetables, and you will STILL be obese. Drink too much water, and you will STILL die. Everything is dose dependent, and nothing works in isolation. Meat is not evil in the context of a balanced diet, and veganism doesn't cure cancer.

I can't rebut your points because you have no points. Remember, every vegan was once a heavy meat eater just like you. Until you actually study the material and research the opposite of your confirmation bias will you then learn.

Cheers and peace.

Let me make my points really clear then:
1. A balanced diet consisting of meat and non-meat foods does not cause detrimental health effects, and in fact supports an active, healthy lifestyle.
2. There is no evidence that a vegan diet is nutritionally superior to an omnivorous diet. Both have strengths and weaknesses, and both can be improved. The amount which you can improve a vegan diet however, is limited due to the elimination of all non-plant based foods.
Source - "Overall the cohort had a mortality about half that of the general population." However, there was no survival difference between vegetarians or omnivores. Nor was there any difference in rates of heart disease or stroke between the two groups.
3. Veganism is not sustainable without supplementation/fortified foods. It is fallacious to suggest that humans can thrive with a diet that requires supplementation/fortified foods because it means evolution has somehow gotten something wrong.
4. Plant-based diets are great! However, veganism does not cure cancer/eczema/etc. I shouldn't even have to provide evidence since you're making the case, but I present you with these direct evidence anyway:
#1 - "Several CAMs used for other purposes were associated with increased eczema prevalence, including herbal therapy (survey logistic regression; adjusted odds ratio [95% confidence interval], 2.07 [1.40-3.06]), vitamins (1.45 [1.21-1.74]), homeopathic therapy (2.94 [1.43-6.00]), movement techniques (3.66 [1.62-8.30]), and diet (2.24 [1.10-4.58]), particularly vegan diet (2.53 [1.17-5.51]). In conclusion, multiple CAMs are commonly used for the treatment of eczema in US children. However, some CAMs may actually be harmful to the skin and be associated with higher eczema prevalence in the United States."
#2 - "During the vegan diet, both signs and symptoms returned in most patients, with the exception of some patients with psoriasis who experienced an improvement."

https://green.harvard.edu/tools-resources/video/empirical-case-plant-based-diet
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/plant-based-diet-reduced-diabetes-risk-hu-satija/

Plant based diets are great! They're just not the same as veganism, and they also don't cure cancer/eczema/etc.
Vegetables are truly awesome! Just remember to add some meat in that too and they'll be even more awesome!
I also have no idea why you're providing a video by a PhD student (not evidence, but just a 1 sided monologue supporting a plant based diet), and a press release of a research study showing a "link" (i.e. not causal) of a plant based diet to reduced risk in diabetes. I believe this thread is talking about eczema.

 

[alphaxw]

Whoa what a heated argument, I scrolled and scrolled until it became TLDR. I'm not with dreamerific though, the claims about veganism and how it is associated with good health and everything else he has claimed but failed to adequately support with reliable sources. Throwing a bunch of references doesn't equate to citing a good strong source like NEJM, BMJ and other medical/nutritional journals.

I realise there are loads of weird claims and myths here so I shall try to debunk them, if any of yall would listen haha.

1. Eczema - is a SKIN disease, where the body's immune system is hyperactive that it ends up wrecking the skin for the tiniest insults which can be sweat, or whatever the skin is allergic to. Whether it flares or not, depends on what the body is exposed to, sometimes it is the skin coming contact with something it doesn't like, sometimes it could even be psychological stressors such as work or exams (the intricate details of how psychological stresa affects the immune system is cheeminology which I admittedly have very little knowledge of, but a fine example of how stress affects the body in many ways e.g. pimple outbreak during stress). Control of eczema is via (1) meds (2) lifestyle changes.
- meds can be topical/ applied to skin, or by mouth, if severe. If mild, antihistamines and moisturisers. If severe, steroids.
- lifestyle changes mainly involves identifying triggers for your eczema and avoiding them. E.g. certain foods, certain dusts, pollen etc. Veganism does NOT cure eczema. Eczena is seldom cured, it is CONTROLLED by reducing activity of the immune system.

2. Someone mentioned gout, and how it is caused by too much protein and little exercise. Not sure how it is relevant to eczema because the mechanism behind both diseases is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. Gout is caused when there is too much of a certain breakdown product of protein (urate) accumulating in the body. Can be caused by too much intake of high purine foods e.g. beans.

 

[alphaxw]

...continuation on gout

Anyway, eating too much high purine/foods that are associated with gout, can cause gout attacks. Similarly, stresses to the body can cause gout, this could be surgery, could be infection, could be psychological, these people may just have lower ability to remove urate from tbeir body or a high ability to produce it for whatever genetic reasons. Doesn't matter, treatment is by reducing purines (proteins thay are broken down into urate, that causes gout) in the diet e.g. beans or by medicines that reduce urate production in the body.

Lol end up my post also tldr, but hope it helps to clear some myths that are apparently in the community!

 

[Dreamerific]

No, you don't because you cannot. You cannot, as an academic and as a researcher, make an unsupported claim, and then say you cannot be bothered to respond to respectful, logical, evidence based criticism of said claim at the first sign of disagreement. It is intellectually dishonest.


When you make a claim, such as "veganism cures eczema", the onus is on you, the claimant to provide evidence. Asking for evidence is a perfect reasonable request, and rejecting the claim due to a failure to provide such evidence is a perfectly logical reaction.


Oh, so now you're adding ad hominem to your repertoire of logical fallacies. Awesome. Just to be clear, I did not say I "like the taste of meat", I said "I do love a good steak". Contrary to veganism beliefs, us omnivores are quite a varied bunch, and loving steak doesn't mean loving the taste of all meats. Let it be clear too that now you're also saying that just because someone loves eating good steak (or the taste of all meat), one has confirmation bias. Also let it be clear that I'm not supporting any lifestyle, I'm just questioning the rationale of a diet that excludes whole food groups that has not been shown to be harmful, and is in fact beneficial, to human health.


Actually, humans have thrived on an omnivorous diet for a very, very long time. If humans had stuck with veganism, you and I would not be debating about this right now because humans would have been wiped out a long, long time ago before Vitamin B12 supplementation/fortification was a thing.


Hold on. Last I checked you're not promoting a plant based diet. You're promoting veganism, which is the elimination of all non-plant based foods. A plant based diet and veganism is quite different. Omnivores like me can be on a plant-based diet, and be very healthy indeed! I assure you that while I do love a good steak, I also do love a good kale and spinach salad, or stir fried kailan, or sambal kangkong!

So based on your belief, are you saying ALL top institutions promote veganism? If so, I urge you again to back up this claim with evidence


Wow. Have you heard of this person called Steve Jobs? I believe he was largely a vegan (definitely "plant-based"). Guess what he died of?
Source: http://www.nbcnews.com/health/strange-eating-habits-steve-jobs-119434


I'm not so much dismissing the person. I'm just looking at the evidence/research presented and find that lacking. However, now that you've mentioned it, I did do a bit of digging up on this "Physican's Committee" that he's the head of.

From Wikipedia of Neal Barnard - In the 1990s, Quackwatch included Barnard in its list of "Promoters of Questionable Methods and/or Advice."

From Wikipedia of PCRM - The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM) is a non-profit research and advocacy organization based in Washington, D.C., which promotes a vegan plant-based diet, preventive medicine, alternatives to animal research, and encourages what it describes as "higher standards of ethics and effectiveness in research."[1] Its primary activities include outreach and education about nutrition and compassionate choices to healthcare professionals and the public; ending the use of animals in medical school curricula; and advocating for legislative changes on the local and national levels.

The National Council Against Health Fraud has criticized PCRM as being "a propaganda machine" and the American Medical Association has called PCRM a "pseudo-physicians group" promoting possibly dangerous nutritional advice. The PCRM is an advocacy group, and hence, contrary to what you said earlier, they DO have an agenda - to promote veganism! Sorry, I think I'll listen to the NCHR and AMA before the PCRM.
Also look here - "Less than 5 percent of PCRM’s members are physicians". They're also funded by PETA, so saying that "alot of meat and dairy industry and pharmaceutical companies fund" other studies is sorta hypocritical in light of this.

Anyway, apart from the "guru" and his organization, let me reiterate this point in case you have missed it. In fact, since I have a bit of time, let me highlight what's wrong with making the conclusion that a balanced diet consisting of meat and other foods is bad for health based on the 100 studies you included. I'm only going to critique the first few, but making the argument based on the rest of the studies suffer from the same problem.

Studies 1-2 measure specific compounds within the human body, and have nothing to do with the argument. In particular, study 2 mentions advanced glycation end products (AGEs) as gerontotoxins, present in meat, and exacerbated by high heat cooking/charred food. This is not in question. However, the overall effect of this in terms of the difference it makes in human mortality seems to be negligible at best. It is also worth noting that while plant based foods themselves may have less inherent AGEs, vegetarian/vegan diets have actually been shown to cause more of an increase in plasma AGEs than omnivorous diets. (Source 1 and source 2). So, it's not always as simple as to say that because certain foods have more/less of compound x, they will cause more/less of an increase of compound x in the body. The interactions of foods with other foods, and the body, is complicated.

Study 3-4 mentions arachidonic acid which is actually a conditionally essential fatty acid that your body needs to function properly. It's also an omega-6 fatty acid, overconsumption of which causes inflammation. It doesn't mean eating meat will cause excessive inflammation, because many plant-based foods are high in omega-6 fatty acids as well, such as canola oil. Also, interesting, algae, one of the only food sources of Vitamin B12 for vegans, and also what you promoted eating, is also the richest plant source of arachidonic acid. Oops. If you have any nutrition/research background you should know this.

Studies 5-6 mention high fat animal meals. You actually didn't link to study 6, but study 5 is an acute study which has very little relevance to the long term well-being of a person. Case in point, if you measured markers of health immediately after a person exercises, you'd probably conclude that he is worse off than right before he exercised. The acute effects of exercise to the human body isn't good - muscles are broken down, there're high levels of catabolic hormones, indicating high stress levels. Does that mean exercise therefore is bad?

Studies 7-9 were all linked to the same, wrong/irrelevant study "The capacity of foodstuffs to induce innate immune activation of human monocytes in vitro is dependent on food content of stimulants of Toll-like receptors 2 and 4". Again, this is a "transient" effect, and has little bearing on long term effects.

Study 10 also measures an acute response, and uses a meat-only diet, which is not what I'm advocating. It also suggests all inflammation is bad. This is not the case. Also, as I've said above, many plant-based foods trigger inflammation as well.

Study 11 is an observational study that studies animal fat. It cannot prove causation, It's also no surprise that people who eat diets high in saturated fats also tend to eat other unhealthful foods, and have generally less healthy lifestyles.

Study 12 - another study that only measures correlation, not causation. It cannot be used to "prove" anything.

Study 13 shows bad farming practices in the meat industry. Bad farming practices are bad, and should be avoided whenever possible, but let's not pretend that such bad farming practices are only prevalent in the meat industry. If you're read about exploding watermelons or EWG's dirty dozen, you'd know the problem exists both sides of the fence.

Study 14 - another study on a single compound (cholesterol) on a multi-variable problem that can establish no causal link.

People are not objective. Data is. People are charismatic. People have agendas. There have been many people who are highly educated and have great credentials in their chosen fields, many of whom are charismatic and are able to present their points and convince people, but they have also been shown to be wrong. Case in point - Robert Lustig, who seems to be convinced that fructose is the 1 evil ingredient that causes obesity and a multitude of illnesses. He has not been able to support his view in an online debate with Alan Aragon. I tend to be wary of people who make extreme claims that eliminating 1 "evil" ingredient/food type, or eating 1 "magic" ingredient/food type, will lead to significantly better health. The human body sadly doesn't work like that, and they usually have agendas to push.


Good! I love researchers! We need more people who bring research work and apply them to real world athletes. I wish you all the best! However, I would urge you to not fall into the trap of "magical" diets and "evil" foods. Stay in school, learn more, read more widely. Remember, eat too much vegetables, and you will STILL be obese. Drink too much water, and you will STILL die. Everything is dose dependent, and nothing works in isolation. Meat is not evil in the context of a balanced diet, and veganism doesn't cure cancer.


Let me make my points really clear then:
1. A balanced diet consisting of meat and non-meat foods does not cause detrimental health effects, and in fact supports an active, healthy lifestyle.
2. There is no evidence that a vegan diet is nutritionally superior to an omnivorous diet. Both have strengths and weaknesses, and both can be improved. The amount which you can improve a vegan diet however, is limited due to the elimination of all non-plant based foods.
Source - "Overall the cohort had a mortality about half that of the general population." However, there was no survival difference between vegetarians or omnivores. Nor was there any difference in rates of heart disease or stroke between the two groups.
3. Veganism is not sustainable without supplementation/fortified foods. It is fallacious to suggest that humans can thrive with a diet that requires supplementation/fortified foods because it means evolution has somehow gotten something wrong.
4. Plant-based diets are great! However, veganism does not cure cancer/eczema/etc. I shouldn't even have to provide evidence since you're making the case, but I present you with these direct evidence anyway:
#1 - "Several CAMs used for other purposes were associated with increased eczema prevalence, including herbal therapy (survey logistic regression; adjusted odds ratio [95% confidence interval], 2.07 [1.40-3.06]), vitamins (1.45 [1.21-1.74]), homeopathic therapy (2.94 [1.43-6.00]), movement techniques (3.66 [1.62-8.30]), and diet (2.24 [1.10-4.58]), particularly vegan diet (2.53 [1.17-5.51]). In conclusion, multiple CAMs are commonly used for the treatment of eczema in US children. However, some CAMs may actually be harmful to the skin and be associated with higher eczema prevalence in the United States."
#2 - "During the vegan diet, both signs and symptoms returned in most patients, with the exception of some patients with psoriasis who experienced an improvement."

Plant based diets are great! They're just not the same as veganism, and they also don't cure cancer/eczema/etc.
Vegetables are truly awesome! Just remember to add some meat in that too and they'll be even more awesome!
I also have no idea why you're providing a video by a PhD student (not evidence, but just a 1 sided monologue supporting a plant based diet), and a press release of a research study showing a "link" (i.e. not causal) of a plant based diet to reduced risk in diabetes. I believe this thread is talking about eczema.

First of all, you kept questioning things which I have already brought up. I already mentioned in my previous reply to you, humans can digest meat for emergency situations for survival such as during winter in ancient times. We have evolved to be able to adapt and survive based on our environment. Paleo diets are proven by archeologists and evolution biologist to not be the diet eaten by our ancestors, and that our ancestors are mostly vegan/vegetarian eating whole grains, roots, tubers, fruits, nuts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMOjVYgYaG8
(Ted Talk)

A vegan diet is under the umbrella/blanket term of "plant based diet or vegetarian", and yes I agree that it is different, but i'm sorry to say that these terms (vegan, plant based, and vegetarian) are frequently used interchangeably by the media, scientists, as well as amongst vegan doctors and nutritionists and can be quite misleading to the average joe. The term "Vegan" was only coined recently, and is a philosophy, way of life, vegans are eating vegetarians/plant-based diet. Only once in awhile, authors, scientist do specifically state "plant-based vegan diet". Even now, most doctors that say "plant based diet" mean a vegan diet. Also by using the term plant-based instead of vegan, it is an attempt to not "scare off" people and to increase plant consumption by the general public, as many people has a falsely negative connotation with the term "vegan" as people think it is an extreme restrictive diet which is not true at all. But half the time, plant-based means vegan diet. The other half of the time, it just means the typical lacto-ovo vegetarian, and some times it can mean mostly plants, with small amounts of various animal products, or even flexitarian. The truth is very few people specifically differentiate plant-based from vegan, from vegetarian.

Resolving the Health Care Crisis: T. Colin Campbel at TEDxEast (a doctor that says plant-based diet but means vegan diet)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CN7PF10RKo

I Love Nutritional Science: Dr. Joel Fuhrman at TEDxCharlottesville 2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4katnfHzXA#t=564.81591

"Power Foods for the Brain | Neal Barnard | TEDxBismarck" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_ONFix_e4kv
"What the dairy industry doesn't want you to know" by Dr Neal Barnard https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3c_D0s391Q
"Alzeimer Prevention" by Dr Neal Barnard https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-v6kS5Q3q0
"Foods for protecting the body & Mind" by Dr Neal Barnard https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnHYHjchn6w
"The Starch Solution"by Dr John McDougall https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XVf36nwraw
"Latest scams by the diabetic industry" by Dr John McDougall https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgE2IdL6tMw

"Glass Walls" by Paul McCartney https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql8xkSYvwJs.
Eating animals is bad karma.

It is physically impossible to overeat vegetables as they fill your stomach up so quickly due to their high fibre & water content, preventing you from overeating in the first place.

Discrediting AMA and NCAHF:
AMA
http://www.naturalnews.com/037152_AMA_racketeering_history.html
http://www.naturalnews.com/008845.html
NCAHF which referenced AMA articles and the history of Victor Herbet:
Furthermore That NCAHF link you provided, I read, and its just to sell Victor Herbert's book. Stephen Barrett is the current owner of NCAHF and he is a con artist, delicensed MD/psychiatrist, and funded by Pharmaceutical industry.
http://www.whale.to/b/herbert_h.html
http://www.quackpotwatch.org/quackpots/quackpots/barrett.htm
http://www.naturalnews.com/041832_quackwatch_Stephen_Barrett_defamation_lawsuit.html
http://www.raysahelian.com/quackwatch.html
http://anhinternational.org/2008/01...barrett-md-loses-appeal-and-leaves-home-town/
http://www.encognitive.com/node/1213
http://www.naturalblaze.com/2017/01...o-cure-cancer-is-not-a-conspiracy-theory.html
https://archive.org/stream/QuackWat...ett Is a BIG Quack | ENCOGNITIVE.COM_djvu.txt
http://www.internetwks.com/pauling/quack.html


ActivistFacts.com (site that poses as a charity evaluator in order to smear legitimate groups and promote Berman’s own groups)
http://stophumanewatch.org/blog/web-of-lies

Steve Jobs was able to lived til 56s because of his vegan diet, he contracted cancer during his 20s because of building computers in presence of high amounts of lead. Dr Mcdougall debunked this with math.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81xnvgOlHaY
https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2011nl/nov/jobs.htm

Like I have already mentioned, the meat/pharma companies are paying millions of dollars to "discredit" veganism as it directly affects their profits. They have control over the government, hospitals, scientists, media, police, etc, etc.

If humans had stuck with veganism, you and I would not be debating about this right now because humans would have been wiped out a long, long time ago before Vitamin B12 supplementation/fortification was a thing.

Before B12 supplementation, people get B12 from the bacteria present in dirt/soil and streams, which is present in fruits and vegetables.

As expected you resort to attacking B12 supplementation again when it has been debunked. We evolve to get B12 from the environment from dirt/soil and streams, B12 is produced by bacteria. But due to modern farming methods, B12 has been removed due to over-sterilization as well as factory farming in animals where they get B12 from consuming some dirt/soil, you need to supplement B12 even on an omnivorous and/or carnivorous diet or you risk being deficient. It is not solely a vegan issue. Animals eat grass together with some soil for their B12, which is why most factory farmed animals also get unnaturally supplemented with B12 because they do not roam in the wild anymore. Might as well supplement B12 first-hand yourself.

The fact of the matter is no one can get a natural source of B12 unless you directly consume soil and fecal matter. Also, your diet is also supplemented with hormones, antibiotics, heavy metals, and fortified with multiple vitamins and minerals(including B12), harmful bacteria, as well as death and diseases into your meat.

Also, I never claimed eating a vegan diet can cure everything for everyone, but it certainly can treat/improve for a bunch of conditions. Some people do get fully healed from various conditions, some people get drastic improvements from their conditions but still have it. Personally, my eczema improved drastically and I am no longer on any eczema medication, flare ups are mild, and tolerable nowadays, to the point where it does not affect my life at all, and is just an inconvenience like a mosquito. There are so many factors to consider such as individual knowledge of people, whether they are doing it right, or bad/contaminated source of plants, or even some external contributing environmental factors outside of diet, such as chemicals or dust/pollen.

Some conditions that a vegan diet directly improves: Hormonal related cancers, alzheimer's, migraines, menstrual pain from endometriosis, type 2 diabetes, atherosclerosis, cardiovascular diseases, osteoporosis, autoimmune disorders, gut health(microbiota), constipation, obesity, etc, etc, etc.

Heart disease/atherosclerosis reversal demonstrated by Dr Cladwell Esselstyn:
Making Heart Attacks History: Caldwell Esselstyn at TEDxCambridge 2011
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqKNfyUPzoU
http://www.pcrm.org/health/healthca...on-one-preventing-and-reversing-heart-disease

Cancer:
Can we eat to starve cancer? - William Li | Ted Talk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjkzfeJz66o
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kathy-freston/vegan-diet-cancer_b_2250052.html
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23169929
http://www.oprah.com/health/can-a-plant-based-diet-cure-cancer

Tackling diabetes with a bold new dietary approach: Neal Barnard at TEDxFremont
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktQzM2IA-qU

The food we were born to eat: John McDougall at TEDxFremont
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5wfMNNr3ak

On eczema/athsma:
https://www.adrescuewear.com/blog/plantbased-vegan-diets-can-dramatically-improve-eczema-and-asthma/
https://nutritionfacts.org/2015/07/09/using-diet-to-treat-asthma-and-eczema/

I'm providing the ted talks/youtube vids for the average bros/sis in the forum who is interested to learn/understand more.

Galapogos, since you're the research expert, do your own, just make sure you only find what supports you, without researching the opposite to your stance. I'm not even gonna try to convince you anymore.
If you are truly scientific, you would try going on a vegan diet yourself(just like I did) and reap the rewards even though it is anecdotal. Higher testosterone and shorter recovery times would definitely help in your lifting endeavours.

Also, you have not given a single reason/evidence to show why meat is good for humans?
Meat causes certain cancer, obesity, cardiovascular related diseases, hormonal problems, oxidative stress to the body, destroys your gut's microbiota due to antibiotics. I do not have to link any sources since everyone already knows that, or are you that ignorant?

Occam's razor = Vegan.

I have not even started, and do not plan to start on the negative ethical and environmental impacts of eating meat.

Peace and cheers.

 

[Dreamerific]

...continuation on gout

Anyway, eating too much high purine/foods that are associated with gout, can cause gout attacks. Similarly, stresses to the body can cause gout, this could be surgery, could be infection, could be psychological, these people may just have lower ability to remove urate from tbeir body or a high ability to produce it for whatever genetic reasons. Doesn't matter, treatment is by reducing purines (proteins thay are broken down into urate, that causes gout) in the diet e.g. beans or by medicines that reduce urate production in the body.

Lol end up my post also tldr, but hope it helps to clear some myths that are apparently in the community!

Alphaxw, are you being serious???

Meat contains the highest levels of purine yet you only mention beans lol. Beans have only moderate levels of purine and has been debunked to not cause gout, unless your diet already consists a high level of proteins, especially from animals.

Like I have previously mentioned already, most people will quickly dismiss diet just to avoid cognitive dissonance, or just severe ignorance about health & nutrition, I do not blame you guys, pretty much all of us were brought up to eat meat without any thinking/knowledge about it. Not to mention the lies and scams funded by the industry. Most doctors and nutritionists blindly get misled by the pharma/meat/dairy industry because those false studies are being studied in school!

 

[evilerniex]

Alphaxw, are you being serious???

Meat contains the highest levels of purine yet you only mention beans lol. Beans have only moderate levels of purine and has been debunked to not cause gout, unless your diet already consists a high level of proteins, especially from animals.

Like I have previously mentioned already, most people will quickly dismiss diet just to avoid cognitive dissonance, or just severe ignorance about health & nutrition, I do not blame you guys, pretty much all of us were brought up to eat meat without any thinking/knowledge about it. Not to mention the lies and scams funded by the industry. Most doctors and nutritionists blindly get misled by the pharma/meat/dairy industry because those false studies are being studied in school!

I dun think it is really debunk based on a just few studies.

And u can say all u like, but the fact is tt i get gout attacks from eating beans. And it is not just me. My bro in law got it when he tried going vegetarian. And so did my fren

 

[galapogos]

First of all, you kept questioning things which I have already brought up. I already mentioned in my previous reply to you, humans can digest meat for emergency situations for survival such as during winter in ancient times.

I bring it up again because you didn't support your stance. Humans don't just just "digest meat for emergency situations for survival". If that were the case, we would not be able to survive today with the higher meat consumption, because the body would treat this as an emergency situation, i.e. stressor, and produce a cocktail of stress hormones that leads to physical decline. I urge you to show me evidence that this is the case. You don't, because you can't.

We have evolved to be able to adapt and survive based on our environment. Paleo diets are proven by archeologists and evolution biologist to not be the diet eaten by our ancestors, and that our ancestors are mostly vegan/vegetarian eating whole grains, roots, tubers, fruits, nuts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMOjVYgYaG8
(Ted Talk)

You have the tendency of linking to youtube talks. We don't have the time to sit through hours of videos. Far from being "proven", our knowledge of the diet of our paleolithic diets is incomplete. What we do know however is that it is varied and definitely not vegan. If you've heard of the term "hunter-gatherer", you'd know that you can't hunt vegetables.

A vegan diet is under the umbrella/blanket term of "plant based diet or vegetarian", and yes I agree that it is different, but i'm sorry to say that these terms (vegan, plant based, and vegetarian) are frequently used interchangeably by the media, scientists, as well as amongst vegan doctors and nutritionists and can be quite misleading to the average joe. The term "Vegan" was only coined recently, and is a philosophy, way of life, vegans are eating vegetarians/plant-based diet. Only once in awhile, authors, scientist do specifically state "plant-based vegan diet". Even now, most doctors that say "plant based diet" mean a vegan diet. Also by using the term plant-based instead of vegan, it is an attempt to not "scare off" people and to increase plant consumption by the general public, as many people has a falsely negative connotation with the term "vegan" as people think it is an extreme restrictive diet which is not true at all. But half the time, plant-based means vegan diet. The other half of the time, it just means the typical lacto-ovo vegetarian, and some times it can mean mostly plants, with small amounts of various animal products, or even flexitarian. The truth is very few people specifically differentiate plant-based from vegan, from vegetarian.

Since you're espousing the magical properties of vegetables, and vilifying the effects of non-plant based foods on physical health, it's a distinction that is very worth making.

Resolving the Health Care Crisis: T. Colin Campbel at TEDxEast (a doctor that says plant-based diet but means vegan diet)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CN7PF10RKo

I Love Nutritional Science: Dr. Joel Fuhrman at TEDxCharlottesville 2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4katnfHzXA#t=564.81591

"Power Foods for the Brain | Neal Barnard | TEDxBismarck" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_ONFix_e4kv
"What the dairy industry doesn't want you to know" by Dr Neal Barnard https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3c_D0s391Q
"Alzeimer Prevention" by Dr Neal Barnard https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-v6kS5Q3q0
"Foods for protecting the body & Mind" by Dr Neal Barnard https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnHYHjchn6w
"The Starch Solution"by Dr John McDougall https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XVf36nwraw
"Latest scams by the diabetic industry" by Dr John McDougall https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgE2IdL6tMw

"Glass Walls" by Paul McCartney https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql8xkSYvwJs.
Eating animals is bad karma.

Sorry, I'm not interested in watching hours of youtube videos by quacks.

It is physically impossible to overeat vegetables as they fill your stomach up so quickly due to their high fibre & water content, preventing you from overeating in the first place.

Are you saying vegans ONLY eat vegetables? Are you forgetting calorically dense vegan foods such as potatoes, legumes, coconut oil/milk, etc? Have you not seen a fat vegan before? (I have, many times).

Discrediting AMA and NCAHF:
AMA
http://www.naturalnews.com/037152_AMA_racketeering_history.html
http://www.naturalnews.com/008845.html
NCAHF which referenced AMA articles and the history of Victor Herbet:
Furthermore That NCAHF link you provided, I read, and its just to sell Victor Herbert's book. Stephen Barrett is the current owner of NCAHF and he is a con artist, delicensed MD/psychiatrist, and funded by Pharmaceutical industry.
http://www.whale.to/b/herbert_h.html
http://www.quackpotwatch.org/quackpots/quackpots/barrett.htm
http://www.naturalnews.com/041832_quackwatch_Stephen_Barrett_defamation_lawsuit.html
http://www.raysahelian.com/quackwatch.html
http://anhinternational.org/2008/01...barrett-md-loses-appeal-and-leaves-home-town/
http://www.encognitive.com/node/1213
http://www.naturalblaze.com/2017/01...o-cure-cancer-is-not-a-conspiracy-theory.html
https://archive.org/stream/QuackWat...ett Is a BIG Quack | ENCOGNITIVE.COM_djvu.txt
http://www.internetwks.com/pauling/quack.html
ActivistFacts.com (site that poses as a charity evaluator in order to smear legitimate groups and promote Berman’s own groups)
http://stophumanewatch.org/blog/web-of-lies

Oh yes, reference a bunch of conspiracy theorists and hippy websites that peddle organic kombucha and homeopathic to cure cancer. You're expecting us to take you seriously like this? Come on, you're supposed to be a student performing research and hopefully helping our athletes with performance and nutrition. Can you science up a little please?

Steve Jobs was able to lived til 56s because of his vegan diet, he contracted cancer during his 20s because of building computers in presence of high amounts of lead. Dr Mcdougall debunked this with math.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81xnvgOlHaY
https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2011nl/nov/jobs.htm

Steve Jobs was diagnosed with cancer in Oct 2003. Nobody can know what caused the cancer, and anyone who claims to know is either lying, or talking out of his butt. Also, you earlier claimed "simply find a patient, take meat out of their diet, cancer goes away, give them meat again, cancer returns, take them out, cancer goes away again". I'm showing you just 1 case where this isn't true. If so, oncologists and other doctors won't have anything to do.

Like I have already mentioned, the meat/pharma companies are paying millions of dollars to "discredit" veganism as it directly affects their profits. They have control over the government, hospitals, scientists, media, police, etc, etc.

I have no doubt that there are lobbyists from the meat/pharma companies. This doesn't however mean that:
1. Vegans are being unfairly targeted.
2. Vegan advocates have no agenda (as I have shown, your "top dogs" are quacks with agendas themselves)

Before B12 supplementation, people get B12 from the bacteria present in dirt/soil and streams, which is present in fruits and vegetables.

As expected you resort to attacking B12 supplementation again when it has been debunked. We evolve to get B12 from the environment from dirt/soil and streams, B12 is produced by bacteria. But due to modern farming methods, B12 has been removed due to over-sterilization as well as factory farming in animals where they get B12 from consuming some dirt/soil, you need to supplement B12 even on an omnivorous and/or carnivorous diet or you risk being deficient. It is not solely a vegan issue. Animals eat grass together with some soil for their B12, which is why most factory farmed animals also get unnaturally supplemented with B12 because they do not roam in the wild anymore. Might as well supplement B12 first-hand yourself.

The fact of the matter is no one can get a natural source of B12 unless you directly consume soil and fecal matter. Also, your diet is also supplemented with hormones, antibiotics, heavy metals, and fortified with multiple vitamins and minerals(including B12), harmful bacteria, as well as death and diseases into your meat.

Why are we here again? I have already provided evidence that omnivorous diets have no problems meeting the B12 RDA without supplementation/fortified foods, and you have already admitted that all vegans should supplement with B12. Omnivores don't have to. We won't die if we don't. You will. That is the difference.

Also, I never claimed eating a vegan diet can cure everything for everyone, but it certainly can treat/improve for a bunch of conditions. Some people do get fully healed from various conditions, some people get drastic improvements from their conditions but still have it. Personally, my eczema improved drastically and I am no longer on any eczema medication, flare ups are mild, and tolerable nowadays, to the point where it does not affect my life at all, and is just an inconvenience like a mosquito. There are so many factors to consider such as individual knowledge of people, whether they are doing it right, or bad/contaminated source of plants, or even some external contributing environmental factors outside of diet, such as chemicals or dust/pollen.

Some conditions that a vegan diet directly improves: Hormonal related cancers, alzheimer's, migraines, menstrual pain from endometriosis, type 2 diabetes, atherosclerosis, cardiovascular diseases, osteoporosis, autoimmune disorders, gut health(microbiota), constipation, obesity, etc, etc, etc.

Let me remind you again that you said the following: "simply find a patient, take meat out of their diet, cancer goes away, give them meat again, cancer returns, take them out, cancer goes away again". If this isn't claiming that veganism cures cancer for everyone, then you need to take some English classes.

Heart disease/atherosclerosis reversal demonstrated by Dr Cladwell Esselstyn:
Making Heart Attacks History: Caldwell Esselstyn at TEDxCambridge 2011
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqKNfyUPzoU
http://www.pcrm.org/health/healthca...on-one-preventing-and-reversing-heart-disease

Referencing to a discredited organization does not make your argument stronger. It makes it weaker.

Cancer:
Can we eat to starve cancer? - William Li | Ted Talk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjkzfeJz66o
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kathy-freston/vegan-diet-cancer_b_2250052.html
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23169929

OK, let's address this. The Huffpost article references the same study that you referenced to below it: "Vegetarian diets and the incidence of cancer in a low-risk population"
"Dietary factors account for at least 30% of all cancers in Western countries." - i.e. it is not the case that cancer is magically cured by veganism.
"We examined the association between dietary patterns (non-vegetarians, lacto, pesco, vegan, and semi-vegetarian) and the overall cancer incidence among 69,120 participants of the Adventist Health Study-2." - notice the word "association" (emphasis mine). This is an observational epidemiological study, and hence can only identify correlations, and not establish cause and effect. It may be that vegan/vegetarian diets confer a protective effect, but:
1. they don't cure cancer - this study doesn't show that
2. they don't cure eczema, which is the title of this thread
3. it may be that there are other confounding factors that skew the result, such as the very probable fact that people who choose to be vegans are usually more health conscious than omnivores, i.e. they may exercise more, they may not smoke, they may watch their caloric intake, etc. All these factors may reduce cancer risk, rather than the vegan/vegetarian diet. I linked to a better designed study earlier that attempts to control for these confounding factors by getting subjects who patronize health stores, i.e. people who are health conscious. As a whole these people had a mortality about half that of the general population. However, there was no survival difference between vegetarians or omnivores. Nor was there any difference in rates of heart disease or stroke between the two groups. Nothing on cancer or eczema, but it does show that vegan diets are not a panacea.

http://www.oprah.com/health/can-a-plant-based-diet-cure-cancer

Referencing Oprah in a scientific discussion? Really?!?

Tackling diabetes with a bold new dietary approach: Neal Barnard at TEDxFremont
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktQzM2IA-qU

The food we were born to eat: John McDougall at TEDxFremont
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5wfMNNr3ak

On eczema/athsma:
https://www.adrescuewear.com/blog/plantbased-vegan-diets-can-dramatically-improve-eczema-and-asthma/
https://nutritionfacts.org/2015/07/09/using-diet-to-treat-asthma-and-eczema/

I'm providing the ted talks/youtube vids for the average bros/sis in the forum who is interested to learn/understand more.

You can do that, but please make sure they are well researched and well referenced, from reputable websites. The above are from discredited people on websites that have no track record that, again, make your argument weaker. I've already shown concrete research studies that shows no evidence that vegan diets are better for eczema. All you've shown are articles of people claiming they do, with no evidence. You gotta do better than that.

Galapogos, since you're the research expert, do your own, just make sure you only find what supports you, without researching the opposite to your stance. I'm not even gonna try to convince you anymore.

I'm by no means an expert, but I seem to be doing a tad better than you. That's disconcerting, because you're an actual researcher on nutrition and human performance. To be clear, my research methodology so far for this thread has been simple. Here's a step by step:
1. Read your claim, e.g. "a vegan diet cures cancer" or "a vegan diet is better than an omnivorous one for cancer/eczema/heart disease/weight loss/etc"
2. Go to Google or pubmed.
3. Type in search fields with no biased keywords, e.g. "vegan cancer" or "comparison of vegan" instead of "how a vegan diet sucks" or "how meat eaters rock" or "how steak is awesome! (it is totally awesome though)"
4. Read and analyze the top few results.
Perhaps we're living in alternate universes (multiverse?), but I'm not seeing the evidence you so adamantly think you have. They've all failed to support your stance.

If you are truly scientific, you would try going on a vegan diet yourself(just like I did) and reap the rewards even though it is anecdotal. Higher testosterone and shorter recovery times would definitely help in your lifting endeavours.

LOL. You have literally defined the unscientific method. "Oh I think it works for me though I don't know for sure! Let's disregard the fact that there's no evidence that it works, and let me recommend this diet to literally EVERYONE!!!!11!!11ONEONEONE"

Also, you have not given a single reason/evidence to show why meat is good for humans?
Meat causes certain cancer, obesity, cardiovascular related diseases, hormonal problems, oxidative stress to the body, destroys your gut's microbiota due to antibiotics. I do not have to link any sources since everyone already knows that, or are you that ignorant?

Are you seriously asking me how meat is good for humans? What? Seriously...???

Occam's razor = Vegan.

I have not even started, and do not plan to start on the negative ethical and environmental impacts of eating meat.

Peace and cheers.

That was never the discussion, so yes, it is wise of you to keep it to yourself...

Let me summarize our discussion so far.
1. You make claim.
2. I ask for evidence, and provide my own evidence that the claim is unsupported.
3. You claim I have no right to ask for evidence as it makes me lazy, and that my evidence is bad because it makes me a pubmed warrior. You provide your own references to youtube videos, articles from supposed "top dogs" and about 10x as much pubmed studies as I did.
4. I look through your list of evidence (except youtube videos because seriously who has time to youtube anymore?) 1 by 1 and systematically dissect them to show why they are either irrelevant, or even shows that you are wrong.
5. You do not respond to my criticism, hence I must assume you accept them. You move on to new arguments, with new list of evidence.
6. Repeat step 4-6 ad nauseam.

I can do this dance with you for a very long time, and if you keep up your current level of rigor, you will ultimately run out of new arguments. Let's not get to that point.

I've also read some of your older posts, and let's just say that you don't come across as Mr Congeniality either.

So here's my offer. If you're not going to engage in a discussion with a higher standard of rigor, then cease, and desist. Stop making unfounded claims. Stop committing logical fallacies. I know you're angry. "Someone has concrete evidence that what I believe in is wrong? My top dog gurus have been shown to be shills? How dare they!" I know. I used to buy into the whole low-carb thing with Gary Taubes, who happens to be very charismatic as well, and provides lots of untested theories that upon reading sounds very plausible, but believe me, it doesn't help you grow. Stay in school, read more widely, do more actual research (in the lab). Come back and have a real discussion when you've learnt how to.

 

[alphaxw]

Lol, okay, don't ever visit a doctor/allied health/dietician okay, because they are all misled by whatever they learn in school and are not worthy enough to serve you.

It's not all meat that has high purine btw, you walk into any polyclinic and ask for a gout pamphlet, they will give you a list of all foods that potentially cause gout, the good ones even tell you the exact amount of purines per unit weight. Your knowledge in veganism and diet must be obtained from some Harvard nutritional college and our SGrean knowledge cannot compare.
Lol.

Alphaxw, are you being serious???

Meat contains the highest levels of purine yet you only mention beans lol. Beans have only moderate levels of purine and has been debunked to not cause gout, unless your diet already consists a high level of proteins, especially from animals.

Like I have previously mentioned already, most people will quickly dismiss diet just to avoid cognitive dissonance, or just severe ignorance about health & nutrition, I do not blame you guys, pretty much all of us were brought up to eat meat without any thinking/knowledge about it. Not to mention the lies and scams funded by the industry. Most doctors and nutritionists blindly get misled by the pharma/meat/dairy industry because those false studies are being studied in school!

 

[Dreamerific]

No, you don't because you cannot. You cannot, as an academic and as a researcher, make an unsupported claim, and then say you cannot be bothered to respond to respectful, logical, evidence based criticism of said claim at the first sign of disagreement. It is intellectually dishonest.


When you make a claim, such as "veganism cures eczema", the onus is on you, the claimant to provide evidence. Asking for evidence is a perfect reasonable request, and rejecting the claim due to a failure to provide such evidence is a perfectly logical reaction.


Oh, so now you're adding ad hominem to your repertoire of logical fallacies. Awesome. Just to be clear, I did not say I "like the taste of meat", I said "I do love a good steak". Contrary to veganism beliefs, us omnivores are quite a varied bunch, and loving steak doesn't mean loving the taste of all meats. Let it be clear too that now you're also saying that just because someone loves eating good steak (or the taste of all meat), one has confirmation bias. Also let it be clear that I'm not supporting any lifestyle, I'm just questioning the rationale of a diet that excludes whole food groups that has not been shown to be harmful, and is in fact beneficial, to human health.


Actually, humans have thrived on an omnivorous diet for a very, very long time. If humans had stuck with veganism, you and I would not be debating about this right now because humans would have been wiped out a long, long time ago before Vitamin B12 supplementation/fortification was a thing.


Hold on. Last I checked you're not promoting a plant based diet. You're promoting veganism, which is the elimination of all non-plant based foods. A plant based diet and veganism is quite different. Omnivores like me can be on a plant-based diet, and be very healthy indeed! I assure you that while I do love a good steak, I also do love a good kale and spinach salad, or stir fried kailan, or sambal kangkong!

So based on your belief, are you saying ALL top institutions promote veganism? If so, I urge you again to back up this claim with evidence


Wow. Have you heard of this person called Steve Jobs? I believe he was largely a vegan (definitely "plant-based"). Guess what he died of?
Source: http://www.nbcnews.com/health/strange-eating-habits-steve-jobs-119434


I'm not so much dismissing the person. I'm just looking at the evidence/research presented and find that lacking. However, now that you've mentioned it, I did do a bit of digging up on this "Physican's Committee" that he's the head of.

From Wikipedia of Neal Barnard - In the 1990s, Quackwatch included Barnard in its list of "Promoters of Questionable Methods and/or Advice."

From Wikipedia of PCRM - The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM) is a non-profit research and advocacy organization based in Washington, D.C., which promotes a vegan plant-based diet, preventive medicine, alternatives to animal research, and encourages what it describes as "higher standards of ethics and effectiveness in research."[1] Its primary activities include outreach and education about nutrition and compassionate choices to healthcare professionals and the public; ending the use of animals in medical school curricula; and advocating for legislative changes on the local and national levels.

The National Council Against Health Fraud has criticized PCRM as being "a propaganda machine" and the American Medical Association has called PCRM a "pseudo-physicians group" promoting possibly dangerous nutritional advice. The PCRM is an advocacy group, and hence, contrary to what you said earlier, they DO have an agenda - to promote veganism! Sorry, I think I'll listen to the NCHR and AMA before the PCRM.
Also look here - "Less than 5 percent of PCRM’s members are physicians". They're also funded by PETA, so saying that "alot of meat and dairy industry and pharmaceutical companies fund" other studies is sorta hypocritical in light of this.

Anyway, apart from the "guru" and his organization, let me reiterate this point in case you have missed it. In fact, since I have a bit of time, let me highlight what's wrong with making the conclusion that a balanced diet consisting of meat and other foods is bad for health based on the 100 studies you included. I'm only going to critique the first few, but making the argument based on the rest of the studies suffer from the same problem.

Studies 1-2 measure specific compounds within the human body, and have nothing to do with the argument. In particular, study 2 mentions advanced glycation end products (AGEs) as gerontotoxins, present in meat, and exacerbated by high heat cooking/charred food. This is not in question. However, the overall effect of this in terms of the difference it makes in human mortality seems to be negligible at best. It is also worth noting that while plant based foods themselves may have less inherent AGEs, vegetarian/vegan diets have actually been shown to cause more of an increase in plasma AGEs than omnivorous diets. (Source 1 and source 2). So, it's not always as simple as to say that because certain foods have more/less of compound x, they will cause more/less of an increase of compound x in the body. The interactions of foods with other foods, and the body, is complicated.

Study 3-4 mentions arachidonic acid which is actually a conditionally essential fatty acid that your body needs to function properly. It's also an omega-6 fatty acid, overconsumption of which causes inflammation. It doesn't mean eating meat will cause excessive inflammation, because many plant-based foods are high in omega-6 fatty acids as well, such as canola oil. Also, interesting, algae, one of the only food sources of Vitamin B12 for vegans, and also what you promoted eating, is also the richest plant source of arachidonic acid. Oops. If you have any nutrition/research background you should know this.

Studies 5-6 mention high fat animal meals. You actually didn't link to study 6, but study 5 is an acute study which has very little relevance to the long term well-being of a person. Case in point, if you measured markers of health immediately after a person exercises, you'd probably conclude that he is worse off than right before he exercised. The acute effects of exercise to the human body isn't good - muscles are broken down, there're high levels of catabolic hormones, indicating high stress levels. Does that mean exercise therefore is bad?

Studies 7-9 were all linked to the same, wrong/irrelevant study "The capacity of foodstuffs to induce innate immune activation of human monocytes in vitro is dependent on food content of stimulants of Toll-like receptors 2 and 4". Again, this is a "transient" effect, and has little bearing on long term effects.

Study 10 also measures an acute response, and uses a meat-only diet, which is not what I'm advocating. It also suggests all inflammation is bad. This is not the case. Also, as I've said above, many plant-based foods trigger inflammation as well.

Study 11 is an observational study that studies animal fat. It cannot prove causation, It's also no surprise that people who eat diets high in saturated fats also tend to eat other unhealthful foods, and have generally less healthy lifestyles.

Study 12 - another study that only measures correlation, not causation. It cannot be used to "prove" anything.

Study 13 shows bad farming practices in the meat industry. Bad farming practices are bad, and should be avoided whenever possible, but let's not pretend that such bad farming practices are only prevalent in the meat industry. If you're read about exploding watermelons or EWG's dirty dozen, you'd know the problem exists both sides of the fence.

Study 14 - another study on a single compound (cholesterol) on a multi-variable problem that can establish no causal link.

People are not objective. Data is. People are charismatic. People have agendas. There have been many people who are highly educated and have great credentials in their chosen fields, many of whom are charismatic and are able to present their points and convince people, but they have also been shown to be wrong. Case in point - Robert Lustig, who seems to be convinced that fructose is the 1 evil ingredient that causes obesity and a multitude of illnesses. He has not been able to support his view in an online debate with Alan Aragon. I tend to be wary of people who make extreme claims that eliminating 1 "evil" ingredient/food type, or eating 1 "magic" ingredient/food type, will lead to significantly better health. The human body sadly doesn't work like that, and they usually have agendas to push.


Good! I love researchers! We need more people who bring research work and apply them to real world athletes. I wish you all the best! However, I would urge you to not fall into the trap of "magical" diets and "evil" foods. Stay in school, learn more, read more widely. Remember, eat too much vegetables, and you will STILL be obese. Drink too much water, and you will STILL die. Everything is dose dependent, and nothing works in isolation. Meat is not evil in the context of a balanced diet, and veganism doesn't cure cancer.


Let me make my points really clear then:
1. A balanced diet consisting of meat and non-meat foods does not cause detrimental health effects, and in fact supports an active, healthy lifestyle.
2. There is no evidence that a vegan diet is nutritionally superior to an omnivorous diet. Both have strengths and weaknesses, and both can be improved. The amount which you can improve a vegan diet however, is limited due to the elimination of all non-plant based foods.
Source - "Overall the cohort had a mortality about half that of the general population." However, there was no survival difference between vegetarians or omnivores. Nor was there any difference in rates of heart disease or stroke between the two groups.
3. Veganism is not sustainable without supplementation/fortified foods. It is fallacious to suggest that humans can thrive with a diet that requires supplementation/fortified foods because it means evolution has somehow gotten something wrong.
4. Plant-based diets are great! However, veganism does not cure cancer/eczema/etc. I shouldn't even have to provide evidence since you're making the case, but I present you with these direct evidence anyway:
#1 - "Several CAMs used for other purposes were associated with increased eczema prevalence, including herbal therapy (survey logistic regression; adjusted odds ratio [95% confidence interval], 2.07 [1.40-3.06]), vitamins (1.45 [1.21-1.74]), homeopathic therapy (2.94 [1.43-6.00]), movement techniques (3.66 [1.62-8.30]), and diet (2.24 [1.10-4.58]), particularly vegan diet (2.53 [1.17-5.51]). In conclusion, multiple CAMs are commonly used for the treatment of eczema in US children. However, some CAMs may actually be harmful to the skin and be associated with higher eczema prevalence in the United States."
#2 - "During the vegan diet, both signs and symptoms returned in most patients, with the exception of some patients with psoriasis who experienced an improvement."


Plant based diets are great! They're just not the same as veganism, and they also don't cure cancer/eczema/etc.
Vegetables are truly awesome! Just remember to add some meat in that too and they'll be even more awesome!
I also have no idea why you're providing a video by a PhD student (not evidence, but just a 1 sided monologue supporting a plant based diet), and a press release of a research study showing a "link" (i.e. not causal) of a plant based diet to reduced risk in diabetes. I believe this thread is talking about eczema.

I bring it up again because you didn't support your stance. Humans don't just just "digest meat for emergency situations for survival". If that were the case, we would not be able to survive today with the higher meat consumption, because the body would treat this as an emergency situation, i.e. stressor, and produce a cocktail of stress hormones that leads to physical decline. I urge you to show me evidence that this is the case. You don't, because you can't.


You have the tendency of linking to youtube talks. We don't have the time to sit through hours of videos. Far from being "proven", our knowledge of the diet of our paleolithic diets is incomplete. What we do know however is that it is varied and definitely not vegan. If you've heard of the term "hunter-gatherer", you'd know that you can't hunt vegetables.


Since you're espousing the magical properties of vegetables, and vilifying the effects of non-plant based foods on physical health, it's a distinction that is very worth making.


Sorry, I'm not interested in watching hours of youtube videos by quacks.


Are you saying vegans ONLY eat vegetables? Are you forgetting calorically dense vegan foods such as potatoes, legumes, coconut oil/milk, etc? Have you not seen a fat vegan before? (I have, many times).


Oh yes, reference a bunch of conspiracy theorists and hippy websites that peddle organic kombucha and homeopathic to cure cancer. You're expecting us to take you seriously like this? Come on, you're supposed to be a student performing research and hopefully helping our athletes with performance and nutrition. Can you science up a little please?


Steve Jobs was diagnosed with cancer in Oct 2003. Nobody can know what caused the cancer, and anyone who claims to know is either lying, or talking out of his butt. Also, you earlier claimed "simply find a patient, take meat out of their diet, cancer goes away, give them meat again, cancer returns, take them out, cancer goes away again". I'm showing you just 1 case where this isn't true. If so, oncologists and other doctors won't have anything to do.


I have no doubt that there are lobbyists from the meat/pharma companies. This doesn't however mean that:
1. Vegans are being unfairly targeted.
2. Vegan advocates have no agenda (as I have shown, your "top dogs" are quacks with agendas themselves)


Why are we here again? I have already provided evidence that omnivorous diets have no problems meeting the B12 RDA without supplementation/fortified foods, and you have already admitted that all vegans should supplement with B12. Omnivores don't have to. We won't die if we don't. You will. That is the difference.


Let me remind you again that you said the following: "simply find a patient, take meat out of their diet, cancer goes away, give them meat again, cancer returns, take them out, cancer goes away again". If this isn't claiming that veganism cures cancer for everyone, then you need to take some English classes.


Referencing to a discredited organization does not make your argument stronger. It makes it weaker.


OK, let's address this. The Huffpost article references the same study that you referenced to below it: "Vegetarian diets and the incidence of cancer in a low-risk population"
"Dietary factors account for at least 30% of all cancers in Western countries." - i.e. it is not the case that cancer is magically cured by veganism.
"We examined the association between dietary patterns (non-vegetarians, lacto, pesco, vegan, and semi-vegetarian) and the overall cancer incidence among 69,120 participants of the Adventist Health Study-2." - notice the word "association" (emphasis mine). This is an observational epidemiological study, and hence can only identify correlations, and not establish cause and effect. It may be that vegan/vegetarian diets confer a protective effect, but:
1. they don't cure cancer - this study doesn't show that
2. they don't cure eczema, which is the title of this thread
3. it may be that there are other confounding factors that skew the result, such as the very probable fact that people who choose to be vegans are usually more health conscious than omnivores, i.e. they may exercise more, they may not smoke, they may watch their caloric intake, etc. All these factors may reduce cancer risk, rather than the vegan/vegetarian diet. I linked to a better designed study earlier that attempts to control for these confounding factors by getting subjects who patronize health stores, i.e. people who are health conscious. As a whole these people had a mortality about half that of the general population. However, there was no survival difference between vegetarians or omnivores. Nor was there any difference in rates of heart disease or stroke between the two groups. Nothing on cancer or eczema, but it does show that vegan diets are not a panacea.


Referencing Oprah in a scientific discussion? Really?!?


You can do that, but please make sure they are well researched and well referenced, from reputable websites. The above are from discredited people on websites that have no track record that, again, make your argument weaker. I've already shown concrete research studies that shows no evidence that vegan diets are better for eczema. All you've shown are articles of people claiming they do, with no evidence. You gotta do better than that.


I'm by no means an expert, but I seem to be doing a tad better than you. That's disconcerting, because you're an actual researcher on nutrition and human performance. To be clear, my research methodology so far for this thread has been simple. Here's a step by step:
1. Read your claim, e.g. "a vegan diet cures cancer" or "a vegan diet is better than an omnivorous one for cancer/eczema/heart disease/weight loss/etc"
2. Go to Google or pubmed.
3. Type in search fields with no biased keywords, e.g. "vegan cancer" or "comparison of vegan" instead of "how a vegan diet sucks" or "how meat eaters rock" or "how steak is awesome! (it is totally awesome though)"
4. Read and analyze the top few results.
Perhaps we're living in alternate universes (multiverse?), but I'm not seeing the evidence you so adamantly think you have. They've all failed to support your stance.


LOL. You have literally defined the unscientific method. "Oh I think it works for me though I don't know for sure! Let's disregard the fact that there's no evidence that it works, and let me recommend this diet to literally EVERYONE!!!!11!!11ONEONEONE"


Are you seriously asking me how meat is good for humans? What? Seriously...???

That was never the discussion, so yes, it is wise of you to keep it to yourself...

Let me summarize our discussion so far.
1. You make claim.
2. I ask for evidence, and provide my own evidence that the claim is unsupported.
3. You claim I have no right to ask for evidence as it makes me lazy, and that my evidence is bad because it makes me a pubmed warrior. You provide your own references to youtube videos, articles from supposed "top dogs" and about 10x as much pubmed studies as I did.
4. I look through your list of evidence (except youtube videos because seriously who has time to youtube anymore?) 1 by 1 and systematically dissect them to show why they are either irrelevant, or even shows that you are wrong.
5. You do not respond to my criticism, hence I must assume you accept them. You move on to new arguments, with new list of evidence.
6. Repeat step 4-6 ad nauseam.

I can do this dance with you for a very long time, and if you keep up your current level of rigor, you will ultimately run out of new arguments. Let's not get to that point.

I've also read some of your older posts, and let's just say that you don't come across as Mr Congeniality either.

So here's my offer. If you're not going to engage in a discussion with a higher standard of rigor, then cease, and desist. Stop making unfounded claims. Stop committing logical fallacies. I know you're angry. "Someone has concrete evidence that what I believe in is wrong? My top dog gurus have been shown to be shills? How dare they!" I know. I used to buy into the whole low-carb thing with Gary Taubes, who happens to be very charismatic as well, and provides lots of untested theories that upon reading sounds very plausible, but believe me, it doesn't help you grow. Stay in school, read more widely, do more actual research (in the lab). Come back and have a real discussion when you've learnt how to.

Sorry if I come off as not replying to you properly, but in reality i can't be bothered to answer someone who cannot comprehend what is in front of them.

People are so brainwashed that I already predicted from my first post that most of you are going to have a negative reaction to my suggestion. I get it, you were born into a society where everyone eats meat and it is the social norm.

You already admitted you are not an expert in the field, you don't even understand how the body works at the molecular level with no foundation in biochemistry.

Stop making bs claims lol, I gave you plenty of research which you didn't even bother to go through and just dismiss it because you do not have time while constantly attacking B12 which I already explained to you multiple times.

Also, galapogos you got angry by attacking me first in your first post when I merely suggested to change one's diet to help with managing eczema. Like I've already stated, My eczema improved a great deal after going vegan and I'm no longer on any creams. My flare ups are less frequent and milder as compared to last time. As this has been a chronic thing, it definitely will not go away overnight. What is wrong with suggesting others to try it out that could potentially help others? Just because you are a moderator you think that you can wave your epeen around and be a bully? Lol.

What are you talking about lol. The most scientific thing anyone can do is experiment and make observations themselves! You are not a scientist, you are just another pubmed warrior who is unable to make links between human health and nutrition simply because you have no knowledge on physiology, biochemistry, and nutrition.

To summarize:

1. You admitted do not have any knowledge on the subject.
2. You admitted that you refuse to look at majority the evidence provided.
2. You keep making bs claims while putting words in my mouth.
4. You provide no reason why omnivorous diet is better than veganism, while I've provided plenty.
5. You defend your quack organisations (AMA, NCAHF) who are funded and controlled by the pharma industry to attack veganism in order to keep people staying sick so that they can profit.
6. You have an agenda.

And sorry, I do not want to dance with you, I am straight and attached.

And what is it about your constant attack for me to "stay in school, read more widely"?
Are you that insecure about your own ignorance that you have to resort to that? How about you go back to school and take a class on biochemistry and nutrition?

 

[Dreamerific]

Lol, okay, don't ever visit a doctor/allied health/dietician okay, because they are all misled by whatever they learn in school and are not worthy enough to serve you.

It's not all meat that has high purine btw, you walk into any polyclinic and ask for a gout pamphlet, they will give you a list of all foods that potentially cause gout, the good ones even tell you the exact amount of purines per unit weight. Your knowledge in veganism and diet must be obtained from some Harvard nutritional college and our SGrean knowledge cannot compare.
Lol.

If everyone is healthy, you think doctors/hospitals/pharmaceutical industry can earn billions of dollars?
There is no money in doing the right thing.

What we learn in school may not be correct all the time, except for all the general subjects such as math, physics, english etc. For instance, certain niche topics in diploma/degree programs can be totally wrong, or outdated, depending on the knowledge of the lecturers setting the curriculum. Furthermore, if you study sociology, you would know that industries have some control over the government, organisations, schools, media, etc. Even if you did not, common sense dictates that money have power and control. People want money to buy a better house, better car, better girlfriend, lol you get it.

Guess who funds hospitals and medical school? Big Pharma companies! Of course they will push their agenda/products to get a return on their investment.

Veganism prevents many of these illnesses in the first place, and if you already have them, either halts, improves, or treats these conditions.

I challenge you to just watch this one video in its entirety if you are too lazy to follow all of the other research. The talk is designed for the lay person so it is easy to listen as long as you are not illiterate.
Plenty of research included as well as simple explanation about definitions and basic science/nutrition/biochemistry which is taught in schools. If you do, you'd be 10 times more knowledgeable than galapogos lol I garantee it.

What the Dairy Industry Doesn't Want You to Know - Neal Barnard MD - FULL TALK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3c_D0s391Q&t=18s

Peace and cheers.

 

[alphaxw]

I don't get what being healthy has got to do with doing the right thing. Medicine exists because diseases exist. No doubt some companies exploit the beed for medicine to profit from it, but most of the time; esp in SG, public healthcare is not a for profit thing. It is ridiculous to say that others aren't learning the right things in school, just because you have some other warped theory that no one else seems to support.

And for the record, hospitals aren't supported by pharmaceutical companies and other for profit organisations. Hospitals, esp gov hospitals, earn their keep through appropriate allocation of resources i.e. the chunk of GDP that goes to running hospitals and providing subsidised healthcare, mainly earning off private patients who prefer more luxurious outpatient and inpatient services, but the quality of healthcare delivered is the SAME. (Quality of healthcare excludes other aspects such as waiting time, use of generics vs big brands etc). Medical schools aren't funded by then either, medical school fees cost as much as half a million (go see YLL or LKCSom websites).

You can continue your delusional promotions of veganism and anti-everyone else attitude, and I hope you don't die of cancer, but don't mislead others only to lead them onto your path of ignorant self destruction, and deny them accurate, legitimate advice. LOL.

 

[Dreamerific]

I don't get what being healthy has got to do with doing the right thing. Medicine exists because diseases exist. No doubt some companies exploit the beed for medicine to profit from it, but most of the time; esp in SG, public healthcare is not a for profit thing. It is ridiculous to say that others aren't learning the right things in school, just because you have some other warped theory that no one else seems to support.

And for the record, hospitals aren't supported by pharmaceutical companies and other for profit organisations. Hospitals, esp gov hospitals, earn their keep through appropriate allocation of resources i.e. the chunk of GDP that goes to running hospitals and providing subsidised healthcare, mainly earning off private patients who prefer more luxurious outpatient and inpatient services, but the quality of healthcare delivered is the SAME. (Quality of healthcare excludes other aspects such as waiting time, use of generics vs big brands etc). Medical schools aren't funded by then either, medical school fees cost as much as half a million (go see YLL or LKCSom websites).

You can continue your delusional promotions of veganism and anti-everyone else attitude, and I hope you don't die of cancer, but don't mislead others only to lead them onto your path of ignorant self destruction, and deny them accurate, legitimate advice. LOL.

I'm talking about western side, singapore follows western knowledge. Are you that ignorant?

 

[alphaxw]

Lol, didn't identify any western medicine you are even talking about amidst your garbled rubbish. And no, I'm not ignorant or I'd be your fan.

I'm talking about western side, singapore follows western knowledge. Are you that ignorant?

 

[spppamm]

Anyone here tried intense use of vaseline?

 

[alphaxw]

Vaseline moisturises/helps skin to retain moisture if I am not wrong. But if it is a severe eczema flare, steroids is really the ultimatum solution. );

Anyone here tried intense use of vaseline?

 

[chowwk]

Does alkaline water help?

Sent from Samsung SM-T819Y using GAGT

 

[alphaxw]

Not research proven. As much as the companies claim, basic science tells you that the weak base/alkaline water you drink pretty much gets neutralised by the strong hydrochloric acid in your stomach. Calculate the number of moles needed to significantly change the stomach pH to make any difference to your body, and you will drink a whopping high pH that you can never swallow without causing caustic injury to your food pipe.

Does alkaline water help?

Sent from Samsung SM-T819Y using GAGT

 

[spppamm]

Ive tried the vaseline moisturising method. It feels damn oily and v hard to work with all that petroleum jelly running around. But it works like a charm.

Vaseline moisturises/helps skin to retain moisture if I am not wrong. But if it is a severe eczema flare, steroids is really the ultimatum solution. );