Profitable Group - is it credible?

[limloca]

Things we can do

Hello

PLEASE COULD EVERYONE LET ME HAVE THEIR THOUGHTS ON THE QUERIES RAISED HEREIN:

We in Hong Kong did not realise anything was wrong until too late. Chandra was in HK to explain why our payments would be delayed when the CAD incident occurred and everything went hush. They stopped replying to emails and calls. Rebecca has no info to give us except the CAD probe. Apparently, she is in Singapore meeting with ex-colleagues from Profitable Group. If people on this forum can try to find out more as to what they are up to, we in HK would be really grateful as we are so deprived of news.

1. Does anyone know whether the Bonafacio sale actually went through? And if so, what happened to the funds? It is really worth doing some detective work in Singapore as that money can be used to pay off investors like us.

2. Some people have suggested sending debt collectors to harass them to make their lives and the lives of their family miserable. Perhaps if we all pitch in costwise, this may be possible. A hard line approach should be adopted given that the directors have had the audacity to deprive so many people of their hard earned money. Any thoughts?

3. How has the Court in Singapore dealt with the issue of the "arbitration clause" given that some investors have instituted legal proceedings ignoring this clause? Any information/links etc would be helpful for us to know.

Thanks everyone

 

[penelope88]

reply to limloca

"We in Hong Kong did not realise anything was wrong until too late. Chandra was in HK to explain why our payments would be delayed when the CAD incident occurred and everything went hush. They stopped replying to emails and calls. Rebecca has no info to give us except the CAD probe. Apparently, she is in Singapore meeting with ex-colleagues from Profitable Group. If people on this forum can try to find out more as to what they are up to, we in HK would be really grateful as we are so deprived of news."

Hi Limloca
Chandra who was in singapore, did not even tell us about the delayed payments when the CAD incident occurred. I had to see it in this forum, called my CSO to concur. Sigh!
Did Chandra initiate a meeting with all the investors in HK? I did call him personally and he told me that the document regarding the sale of bonifacio was notarised in singapore(do u know what that means?) 3 days prior to CAD stepping in. And he said assets are frozen by CAD so there is no way PP can pay staff and no way that PP can run the office. But when i checked with CAD, they said that they do not hinder money from flowing in to PP (if THERE IS REALLY any money at all flowing in from the Bonifacio sale), and CAD does not prevent nor stop PP from paying out to clients. The freezing of accounts is inconsequential, according to CAD and if i understand correctly what CAD explained to me.




1. Does anyone know whether the Bonafacio sale actually went through? And if so, what happened to the funds? It is really worth doing some detective work in Singapore as that money can be used to pay off investors like us.


As to whether the sale of Bonifacio site went through, as what i told u above, Chandra told me over the phone that the document stating this sale was notarised in singapore 3 days before CAD stepped in on 11 aug2010. WHich means this document was notarised on 6th Aug2010. Any idea or anyone can concur about this notarisation? Does it stand for anything?



2. Some people have suggested sending debt collectors to harass them to make their lives and the lives of their family miserable. Perhaps if we all pitch in costwise, this may be possible. A hard line approach should be adopted given that the directors have had the audacity to deprive so many people of their hard earned money. Any thoughts?

Harassing them in singapore, i dun think thats legal. THat's why CAD has stepped in to investigate with they have done anything criminal. It is really quite sickening if they had actually planned this from the start to scam pple of hard earned money, that's why i really wonder how they can have peace of mind? surely, they wil b haunted for the rest of their lives isn't it?


3. How has the Court in Singapore dealt with the issue of the "arbitration clause" given that some investors have instituted legal proceedings ignoring this clause? Any information/links etc would be helpful for us to know.


Sorry, i don't understand this aspect, so i cant comment. sigh....

let's hope CAD does a thorough job.

penelope88

 

[limloca]

Moving forward

Hi penelope

Thanks for the update. Pls keep those messages coming in. In response to your query, Chandra did not meet with investors. He was just making calls to them to say that payment would be delayed between 1-3 months. Like you, nobody told me about what was really happening till i went on the internet.

The word "notarised" means that the document is authenticated by the government authorities. The Court in Hong Kong will usually notarise documents. If you were to check with the government department in Singapore responsible for notarising documents, the department can confirm whether or not they actually received the Bonafacio documents. If this can be looked into right away, it will no doubt come as a relief to many investors as they will know for certain whether or not the money exists. Perhaps you could ask CAD to confirm this fact with the relevant authorities as a priority. You may also wish to confirm this with the Philippines embassy in Singapore.

Using debt collectors is legal in most countries if they do not do anything illegal. This is something really worth looking into.

The strength of our case is in numbers. If we report the matter to the HK authorities, would I be able to count on you and any other of your investor friends to confirm the facts?

Thank you
limloca

 

[probono]

Its all lies

Limloca / Penelope. I know you dont want to hear this but here you go anyway.

Can Profitable Group provide written proof of a single sale or conversion of any investment product over the last 7 years?. NO. The only profitable sales have been to people like you.

You suggest Profitable Group representatives are saying the only reason that people are not being paid is because of CAD intervention. Profitable Group non-payment to customers is always someone elses fault. Profitable Group reps have been saying that the cause of non-pyament is customers complaining or reporting fraud to the authorities. Others have been saying its the economy. Yet others have been saying everything is just about to happen just wait a few months.

This is all lies

Read the rest of this blog. Profitable Group reps have been promising that the Philippines land is about to be sold since early 2009. They have been offering planning permission on Concorde Village in 12 months since 2006. The sale or conversion of land is always just about to happen. It never has. It never does. Profitable Group will tell you about notarised documents in other countries or Boron shipments to Albania awaiting paperwork, or imminent approvals for planning on UK Land.

It is very simple. If the land was sold or the Boron shipment to Albania was made, or the planning achieved they would be able to put this in writing to you and everyone else. If the land in the Philippines was sold they would be proudly screaming the name of the buyer in emails and press releases around Asia.

Profitable Group will always give you a reason of confidentiality about why this cannot happen.

The only reason it cannot happen in writing in public is it is all lies. There were no significant Boron shipments. The land in the Philippines it has not been sold to pay you. The UK land has no chance of gaining planning permission. The investment model did not allow them to pay more than one or two 12.5% AAA payments to early investors and it was always intended that people would re-invest so they would never have to pay out.

There are no prospects for any of the Profitable Group investment products. They were designed to maximise profit to Profitable Group.

There are some assets (unsold land) and there is some money in bank accounts. That is the only thing left for you to go after.

 

[koinic]

Hi all, i m one of the investors with PPG (AAA) than later switch to Boron when told to do so after the delay in payments of interest.
My job is Real estate and deal with many landlords around the around. I was told by some landlords that they are giving up their office lease by end of September.
So they would probably shift some important stuff over the weekend and i believe they will do it by the back door behind their unit ( accessible thru Maccullum st beside 7-eleven).

 

[Vindi Kate]

Where have the monies gone?

Would be interesting to see who will be carting away the stuff from their offices.

Was reading PP's Strategic Land Planning Trust brochure and noticed that their trustees are Albert Yeo of Singapore law firm Lim & Lim and Simon Goldring from Goldring & Co, a law firm in the UK. PP's director is Tim Goldring. So the trustee Simon Goldring is a relative of PP director Tim Goldring? Understand that the trustee was quietly changed to Goldring & Co in the last 2 years.

Understand that PP amassed some GBP300 million from investors from a few countries. Even if they paid ESPN, salaries, rental and bought some cheap land etc, surely there should be a fair bit of money left. So, it is possible that monies have been siphoned out or have they done a David Rasif and bought gold bars/jewelry to hide? Heard their finance director is the wife of one of the directors, so can authorise the movement of monies quite easily.

The ex-employees (except the big time liars) are quite poor thing actually. They sold to their relatives and friends and bought a lot themselves. With all this, they will lose monies, friends, cannot face their relatives anymore.

 

[Commander Keen]

CONCORDE VILLAGE S.T.A.R. LONDON, UK

Understand that PP amassed some GBP300 million from investors from a few countries. Even if they paid ESPN, salaries, rental and bought some cheap land etc, surely there should be a fair bit of money left. So, it is possible that monies have been siphoned out or have they done a David Rasif and bought gold bars/jewelry to hide? Heard their finance director is the wife of one of the directors, so can authorise the movement of monies quite easily.

Perhaps its going here - same scam different company name
http://www.landsyndications.com/concorde-village.php

This is what Land Banking companies do. They keep changing the name and the country until they run out of names and countries.

This is a brand new program designed to allow clients to maximize their returns using the growth in land values on a short term basis.
It pays a 18% guaranteed return in 12 months from the date of signing the TR1s. As a surety, the client is given a parcel of land worth the amount of their investment plus their return.

Please note if anyone is new and even thinking this is genuine - Concorde Village is worthless greenbelt land. Worth around 150 pounds per plot. They are selling here for 10,000 Pounds. Do a search for it in google.

 

[Vindi Kate]

Based on Land Syndications' website, looks like PP and others are just operating a Ponzi scheme--using new investors' monies to pay the interests of older investors.

Understand that the highest sentence on a Ponzi scheme in Singapore is 14 years for a S$13 million fraud. Wonder how long other schemers who defrauded a higher value would be put away.

Somebody should tell CAD Mr Ho to freeze the relevant directors' and their related persons' bank accounts and not just PP's.

Apparently this Andy guy was complaining that the small time investors were troublesome and the main cause of their problems, that next time they will restrict their offerings to big investors. My question is why accept small investors' monies if that is the case? Once you have taken their money, you should treat them with some respect and not despise them. Small investors only made noise because PP failed to pay. Small to PP may be a large amount for these so called "small time" investors. What an arrogant attitude.

 

[soloist972]

Hope CAD will prode into this and will let public know the outcome. I tried to contact Simon Dawson for the past one month...seems like he vanish.

Have been approach by ex-PP compliance officer who now works with Lands Investment re-seller. Do not want to name the company at this moment, they told me to sell my plots to them and they have buyers ready to buy over my investment. I need to pay them few thousands to get this done. Another SCAMS??

 

[anatolian]

Apparently this Andy guy was complaining that the small time investors were troublesome and the main cause of their problems, that next time they will restrict their offerings to big investors. My question is why accept small investors' monies if that is the case? Once you have taken their money, you should treat them with some respect and not despise them. Small investors only made noise because PP failed to pay. Small to PP may be a large amount for these so called "small time" investors. What an arrogant attitude.

PP is arrogant but the reality is that PP is a cheap skate company that makes a fuzz over small amount of money. They put a fight on court for a mere SGD $30k, even earlier they put a fight over USD $5k at SCT when their investors wanted their money back. Honestly, PP directors did have all the time in the world to waste. They were not born to build a business, they just don't know how to build trust. A very basic ingredient in business is to honour contract they drafted themselves, but they even couldn't lift up to this very basic standard. You handed them money and signed a 6-mths contract after 6 mths they came up with all excuses and fictional stories. And now they dare to complain when their investors reported them to police for not honouring any contracts?

 

[s7460597]

Hope CAD will prode into this and will let public know the outcome. I tried to contact Simon Dawson for the past one month...seems like he vanish.

Have been approach by ex-PP compliance officer who now works with Lands Investment re-seller. Do not want to name the company at this moment, they told me to sell my plots to them and they have buyers ready to buy over my investment. I need to pay them few thousands to get this done. Another SCAMS??

What do you think? This sort of things are happening to people who bought time-sharing investments.

 

[probono]

Reloading Scam

Have been approach by ex-PP compliance officer who now works with Lands Investment re-seller. Do not want to name the company at this moment, they told me to sell my plots to them and they have buyers ready to buy over my investment. I need to pay them few thousands to get this done. Another SCAMS??

This is a secondary or reloading scam. If they had buyers why would you need to pay them ?
There will be a number of such scams offering recovery services or a chance to get your money back for a fee.
You are now on a suckers list unfortunately and should regard every cold call or unsolicited offer of help with suspicion.

 

[Vindi Kate]

Reloading

ex-compliance officer? Is that Shakira or Pat? Wonder what sort of compliance officer/legal staff they had in there who allowed all these dubious transactions to propagate and now involved in the reloading scam.

PP staff who had knowledge of any fraud/scam should have reported to the authorities. Also, thought they had one of the big names as their auditors too...

Think the authorities should also press charges on management staff who knew of any wrongdoing.

 

[limloca]

Profitable Group staff's involvement

I agree with Vindi. I do believe that some of the staff knew what was happening but turned a blind eye. CAD should also press charges against them for conspiracy to defraud.

A friend of mine told me that an accounts staff in the Hong Kong office admitted to knowing about the company's financial woes but the reason why she did not say anything is because of confidentiality reasons. She got paid for her boron, both principal and interest in March 2010. I believe she saw the end coming. My friend got the feeling that the staff was mentally prepared and not suprised at all about any of the news. I believe the staff saw the end coming.

To be honest, I only find out about all this mess from the media when nobody would return my calls or emails. They did not even have the courtesy to let us know what was going on. They are the lowest of the low.

At the same time, CAD SHOULD FREEZE THE DIRECTORS' ASSETS URGENTLY. Please could those of you reading this and living in Singapore have a word with the CAD about this. They can get legal advice on how to freeze directors' assets from a lawyer. I am sure they are assisted by government lawyers. The lawyers will advise the grounds on which assets can be frozen. Once the money is safe, then CAD may continue on with its investigation. FOR EVERYONE'S SAKE, PLEASE COULD THOSE OF YOU READING THIS BLOG HAVE A WORD WITH THE CAD. The more the merrier.

ARE PEOPLE STILL INSTITUTING LEGAL ACTION AGAINST THEM? Or have they stopped because it is not worth it. What is the latest on the court front? Anybody knows?

Has anyone even tried visiting the directors or calling them to see what they have to say?

Please keep these updates coming. Together, we can nail those evil men.

 

[Vindi Kate]

Staff's Commission

In the case of Madoff, I believe that the companies which received fees, commission etc from selling Madoff related funds/securities had their fees/commission clawed back by Madoff trustees.

If indeed this is a fraud case, staff's commission should also be clawed back since such commission were made from deceiving investors. I understand that the more senior sales staff there were so greedy that they kept asking investors to buy and switch products until the very end. Pressurizing investors to switch to Concord i thought was really terrible, an investment with an indefinite future. If indeed there had been fraud, I hope that the Singapore judiciary would impose the maximum sentence for such crimes to deter future schemers. Some caning would be good too.

I really dislike the fact that they are probably using investors' monies to pay legal fees. From what i heard, legal fees for top law firms run into the millions with trial.

Limloca, I believe that you can call/email CAD too. The Singapore police force are quite approachable.

 

[R Hess]

''sell my plots to them and they have buyers ready to buy ''

How come Scam alert red lights are not FLASHING IN YOUR HEAD?





When I met the PP guys 3 years ago I told them to keep quiet about their amazing
investment.Only tell family and close friends.

 

[GeorgeBoron]

Concord village land effort

Dear all,



We are starting an initiative to sell the land in concord on our own.



For those interested to join this effort please send me one private mail with the below info:



1. Your name

2. your purchase details. i.e one unit in concord at 18,888GBP

3. How less you are willing to give the land compared to the purchase price. ie. I am happy if I sell the land at 30% of what i paid for.



Target of this effort is to be grouped and get a better deal or interest from potential land agents. We will re-discuss at a later point how much to sell the land. At this phase is important to get grouped to as we know for what size we talk about.



Only people with interst in Concord or VIP Plots should reply. I am not looking any other UK land. IF Investors in AAA got land in Concord they should also get in touch.



Will be starting soon an effort to find potential buyers in the UK.



You can send a private message over here, public or join the group petition_on_landbanking@yahoo.com



George

 

[limloca]

Concorde land

George

1. I understand Profitable Group (PG) mentioned that Taylor Woodrow were developing the land adjacent to Concorde, so they might be interested. Maybe you should speak to Hounslow Council to see what ideas they have and what assistance they can provide. Then pls share.

2. We could try selling the plots for 60% first. There is no need to start at 30%.

limloca

Dear all,



We are starting an initiative to sell the land in concord on our own.



For those interested to join this effort please send me one private mail with the below info:



1. Your name

2. your purchase details. i.e one unit in concord at 18,888GBP

3. How less you are willing to give the land compared to the purchase price. ie. I am happy if I sell the land at 30% of what i paid for.



Target of this effort is to be grouped and get a better deal or interest from potential land agents. We will re-discuss at a later point how much to sell the land. At this phase is important to get grouped to as we know for what size we talk about.



Only people with interst in Concord or VIP Plots should reply. I am not looking any other UK land. IF Investors in AAA got land in Concord they should also get in touch.



Will be starting soon an effort to find potential buyers in the UK.



You can send a private message over here, public or join the group petition_on_landbanking@yahoo.com



George

 

[Commander Keen]

Concorde Village Value

George
1. I understand Profitable Group (PG) mentioned that Taylor Woodrow were developing the land adjacent to Concorde, so they might be interested.limloca

Taylor Woodrow were the people who sold the land to Profitable Group for 3.1 Million in 2006. I think their shareholders would suspect some kind of scam if they bought it back for 3 times as much in 2011 with no change in prospects.

120 Acres = 580,800 Sq Yards
Each plot = 8 x 8 = 64 Sq Yards
9075 plots
Total cost was 342 UKP per plot.

UK agricultural land has increased in price since 2006 but greenbelt has not really. Also the the UKP has dropped against most asian currencies by about 30% since 2009.

I think you would be very lucky to see a 30% return on this investment. Anyone in the UK is going to check with the UK land registry for 5 UKP and see that last sale price. That will be the basis for any discussion and they would have to deal with multiple investors .

I would value it a 100 UKP per plot at this point.

I think you would be better to try and get money back through the Singapore Legal system. UK investors did get a refund when Profitable Plots were investigated there in 2007.
A UK FSA ruling decided that is was in the best interests of UK investors for Profitable Plots UK to reach a settlement with investors rather than have all their assets seized. Investors were offered a choice of a refund on Colchester or Nafferton or a transfer to Concorde Village !! This means they were giving refunds in the UK while they were selling the same plots to you.
They just moved the scam to Asia and used your money to pay off UK investors and keep them quiet.

See here for a few details on this
http://abskey.wordpress.com/2007/09/26/profitable-plots-where-have-they-disappeared-2/

 

[GeorgeBoron]

Concord

Dear Keen thank you for your reply.

Is very interesting what I hear from you. So valuable indeed.

you mention the cost of PG buying the land was 342 GBP back in 2006? they sold one plot to me at 18,888GBP (I actually got that from the VIP plots investment scheme as a guarantee - i never wanted to invest direct in Concord and now i ended up to my fears...).

Yes better idea to negotiave with PG in Singapore. CAD will help us with that but now PG in difficulz shoes and hard to imagine they have anything of value to give back to us if we return the land back to them...

George