Air purifier? - Part 2

Lucky177

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A bit hazy today. Got to test finally my room ... disappointed.
Anyway don’t want comment much cos feels that can get quite defensive response.

Disclaimer: Doesn’t work well for my situation doesn’t mean will not work well for others.
 

Lucky177

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How u test? U got the measurements stuff?
Using my two laser particulate devices. Aiya, some may say is not accurate, not reliable this n that.

I’m not doing lab test. Anyway my comparison also not fair at first place.

I feel that is not suitable for my situation only. Not saying is not working. Many factors involved.

I believe it will work very well in closed environment / belong to someone that will close all windows and doors.

Technical specs etc are available online to show it works anyway.
 
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herz22

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Using my two laser particulate devices. Aiya, some may say is not accurate, not reliable this n that.

I’m not doing lab test. Anyway my comparison also not fair at first place.

I feel that is not suitable for my situation only. Not saying is not working. Many factors involved.

I believe it will work very well in closed environment / belong to someone that will close all windows and doors.

Technical specs etc are available online to show it works anyway.

Show us the test results since you claim it is disappointing. Must be fair to some of us here who had actually bought the unit for home use. I have elderly parents and children at home, if it really does not work like you claim. I will definitely go back for a refund and blacklist them.

Oh, just to let you know. It is a fact that all AP will not work well in an open window environment not just Sqair. Unless you are saying XM pro works the same with both open and closed window environments, maybe some proof with your laser particulate devices? I don’t have a XM pro at home to test, cannot afford expensive machines. 😅
 

Lucky177

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Show us the test results since you claim it is disappointing. Must be fair to some of us here who had actually bought the unit for home use. I have elderly parents and children at home, if it really does not work like you claim. I will definitely go back for a refund and blacklist them.

Oh, just to let you know. It is a fact that all AP will not work well in an open window environment not just Sqair. Unless you are saying XM pro works the same with both open and closed window environments, maybe some proof with your laser particulate devices? I don’t have a XM pro at home to test, cannot afford expensive machines. 😅

I didn’t say it doesn’t work at first place.

Dont be so defensive. I didn’t even say is not a good product. I only say not suitable for my case only. Is a very personal thing. Of course I compare with my xm pro. I didn’t say xm pro works the same in open and closed environment.

Anyway, at first place, is not even a fair comparison.

Why need refund or even blacklist? Pls la. Is not that is not working. Let me make it clear, it is a good product, it works. Just that is not suitable for me. Not my preference only.
 
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herz22

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I didn’t say it doesn’t work at first place.

Dont be so defensive. I didn’t even say is not a good product. I only say not suitable for my case only. Is a very personal thing. Of course I compare with my xm pro. But of course that’s not a fair comparison at first place.

Why need refund? Is not that is not working. Let me make it clear, it is a good product, it works. Just that is not suitable for me. Not my preference. That’s all.
My apologies if I sounded defensive but the reason why I bought it is because it is affordable and claims to protect my home. I even conducted some tests to make sure it works. I have a child with bad respiratory, any haze of smoke will trigger his illness. If I can afford to buy the IQAir or top of the range AP, I would but need to save the money for my child’s treatment.

I am reacting badly because you said it does not work. So that worries me.
 

Lucky177

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My apologies if I sounded defensive but the reason why I bought it is because it is affordable and claims to protect my home. I even conducted some tests to make sure it works. I have a child with bad respiratory, any haze of smoke will trigger his illness. If I can afford to buy the IQAir or top of the range AP, I would but need to save the money for my child’s treatment.

I am reacting badly because you said it does not work. So that worries me.
I didn’t say it doesn’t work. Sorry if I didn’t make myself clear earlier on.

Don’t worry la. It works. If u place your “air tester” on top of the purifier during operation, u will see PM2.5 Readings ~ 0. It shows clean air coming out. So no worry. Will bring down PM2.5 etc ... U already tested yourself.
 
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herz22

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I didn’t say it doesn’t work. Sorry if I didn’t make myself clear earlier on.

Don’t worry la. It works. If u place your “air tester” on top of the purifier during operation, u will see PM2.5 Readings ~ 0. It shows clean air coming out. So no worry. Will bring down PM2.5 etc ... U already tested yourself.
Yes, I do it daily and when the pm2.5 number drops to 5 or below, I am more assured. How I wish my child don’t have to go through this every night. We seldom go out and now my concern is when he goes to school. Hope he outgrows it.
 
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mindgamey

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My apologies if I sounded defensive but the reason why I bought it is because it is affordable and claims to protect my home. I even conducted some tests to make sure it works. I have a child with bad respiratory, any haze of smoke will trigger his illness. If I can afford to buy the IQAir or top of the range AP, I would but need to save the money for my child’s treatment.

I am reacting badly because you said it does not work. So that worries me.
If you want to compare, you should compare against 3H rather than the Pro.

The SQair is undersized compared to the Pro. Same for 3H.

Like for like than compare.
 

calkel20

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Yes, I do it daily and when the pm2.5 number drops to 5 or below, I am more assured. How I wish my child don’t have to go through this every night. We seldom go out and now my concern is when he goes to school. Hope he outgrows it.
Wonder if you tried vacuum your kid’s bedding?
We did that last time though.
Keeping dust+dustmites to min.
 

WussRedXLi

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Yes, I do it daily and when the pm2.5 number drops to 5 or below, I am more assured. How I wish my child don’t have to go through this every night. We seldom go out and now my concern is when he goes to school. Hope he outgrows it.
Wonder if you tried vacuum your kid’s bedding?
We did that last time though.
Keeping dust+dustmites to min.

Hey Herz22,

Long time poster of this thread and family members suffering of allergic rhinitis/allergic cough. (4 decades + for me :D). Luckily for my kids they seem to be outgrowing the allergic cough portion after they went into pri sch. Asthma is a bit of a different animal and may or may not be tied to this......no experience.
But literature i found do list asthma pax to be ard 50% allergic to dust mites (feces as the aeroallergen), so no harm trying. Allergic rhintis sufferers literally are all allergic to dust mite droppings, this one nearly bao jiak one. :D


I have written a lot on this topic before and over time, what i realised that many miss (and even pediatricians/ENTs miss) is the air con FCU. That is one source control that pax miss, simply coz it's not that easy to fix. That is, the aircon FCU. The FCU does over time become a major depository of dust mite faeces and re-introduces this back into the room for circulation, just to varying levels depending on the FCU's cleanliness.


You can use APs to fix and it'd work of coz, but end up you'd need at least 10 ACH (air changes per hr), and even then the results are not going to be as good as source control.

I realised that there is a new AP mentioned here, simi sqair, but if you are talking about a HDB MBR kind of air space, you'd probably need to gun 3-4 units in there to achieve 10 ACHs at a reasonably low SPL for night time operations (or you can use some earplugs, personally sometimes i use Howard Leight MAX by Honeywell, can get from Taobao....coz my side is closest to my 3 APs).


The most impt thing is always source control, so yes....all those anti mite beddings probably would work as part of the whole arsenal, as they'd keep the mite population to the lowest, so not as much dust mite shiat as aeroallergens in the room. But still there would be some, that is where the APs come in.
A HEPA vaccum would help (I have one) but i feel that it's quite lehceh. Best is to get a dust mite proof mattress/bedding sheets in which the weave of the stuff is tighter than usual so that it does not have that high a population in the first place. Something about the mites being unable to burrow deep into the pillows/mattress due to the anti-dust mite stuff so the population is cut.


I find other stuff like curtains you can leave it, no worries one, as long as your/their noses are not close to the source. Curtains are not often physically disturbed anyway.


So yeah.....i'd give a guess that most pax have not fixed the aircon FCU issue as source control. It also probably has a pretty big dust mite population (just not as big as your bed) as the FCU is also a repository of skin flakes etc..... but the more impt factor is that, people do not clean their FCUs to a clean enough state often enough.
It actually likes the FCU temperature and RH% much more than your bedding esp if the bedding is exposed to sunlight (drier and much hotter). :D They really like 20-25 deg C and wetter RH levels of 80%, they absolutely do fine in FCUs.
 
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WussRedXLi

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Here's a NCBI write up on the dust mite allergens in the aircon FCU.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4443215/
So confirm got allergens one, and these would present a constant low source of contamination (in which pax in this thread are trying to fix with a good enough CADR with APs). And trust me there are much more hidden in the insides of the FCU, with conditions just nice for dust mites.

The concentration of Der f1 & Der p1 in air was higher after the air-conditioners starting one hours later, and the difference was significant (P<0.05, respectively). Additionally, dot-ELISA findings revealed that the allergen extracted from the dust was capable of reacting with IgE from the sera of asthma mice allergic to dust mites. The study concludes that air-conditioner filters can enrich dust mites major group allergen, and the allergens can induce asthma. The air-conditioner filters shall be cleaned or replaced regularly to prevent or reduce accumulation of the dust mites and its allergens.

I don't think it is merely the aircon filters. The innards are all messed up and it also consists of mold, which is also another very possible allergen for rhinitis, allergic cough and asthma.

So, 2 possible sources of allergens here. Dust mite droppings and then mold and its spores.
Actually in the aircon FCU, a large % is actually mold and not dust or skin flakes or what (which would hold dust mites/its droppings).


For me over the past few years I DIY cleaned my aircons and what i can only offer you is anecdotal evidence.
Other than my own experience, i have also been helping some pax around my neighbourhood to clean their units (esp after ** time in Phase 2 where there was a great lack of manpower for aircon services).
Some of these pax (they spread via word of mouth recommendation as they have relatives living ard the neighbourhood as well) have returned to ask me to clean again simply coz they noticed a difference in their allergies.
So far I have helped clean the aircons for abt a dozen houses ard my neighbourhood, so while that's not a lot of egs for anecdotal evidence, but i still think it lends to the trend that it is a major factor coz the customers did say they did notice an improvement coz during the washing i do chat with the fellas a fair bit and share the tips, including my own house + my parents (my father also has allergic rhinitis).



Allergic rhinitis actually is pretty pervalent in SG, around 40-50% of the population? Just to varying degrees only and whether it poses enough of a discomfort to everyday activities nia. (cant always take antihistamines on a near daily basis also, withdrawal issues etc).

You can read it here.
Pls do not PM me, not doing aircon cleaning services, coz i only do around my neighbourhood to help out....basically wu hua for me coz i'd just walk over and do, not transportation/time overheads.


You can also achieve the same effect with a chemical wash once every 1.5-2 months, probably if you have a very dirty FCU you'd need to do a chemical overhaul first.
Issue is that (1)
Chemical wash is ard $80 per unit and chemical overhaul is ard $150 per unit, more units will have discounts
and (2)
The aircon techs are using alkaline coil cleaners for these cleanings, hence the term "chemical". It is basically an alkaline (eg sodium/potassium hydroxide) + some surfactants. You cannot be using this on a regular basis coz the alkaline "dissolves" some of aluminum on the evaporator coil every time you clean, which means wearing down the coil and lessening its useful life (problems include corroded fins and gas leaks of the refrigerant pipes).
Some AC techs do have evaporator coil safe cleaners (non alkaline) and these are ok, small problem is that they are not as powerful in cleaning effect for the soil loads involved, hence you'd need a higher cleaning frequency.


DIY aircon thread
https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/...diy-clean-your-aircon-blower.5091470/page-279


Or maybe i am OCD paranoid with 1.5-2 mths wash. Perhaps you can fix the issue with just 6 months chemical wash, not sure, but i have my doubts due to my experience there, probably 3 mths is a good compromise. I also clean at my parents' place coz my kids stay there during most of the weekdays.
So it's gonna cost if we use pros, in fact annual expenses is > 1k for both places for the $80 chemical wash/FCU.

There are cons involved though - there is a learning curve involved in DIY, need to spend a bit on the equipment needed, and need to be careful as there is a small risk of screwing up the system like the electronics, the sensors (what the folks do in the thread do is a permanent plastic wrapping of the IR sensors, electronics bay at the RHS, and for the fan motor protection actually some of us do not even remove the blower so there is a sort of physical barrier protection).


BTW the cleaning is not this type of general service cleaning. It's much more thorough. (ps actually some steps dont even need to do if the cleaning is frequent, eg the vacuuming of the drainage pipe, simple coz there is nothing to clean over there if your maintainence is good).


 
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WussRedXLi

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I don't think it is merely the aircon filters. The innards are all messed up and it also consists of mold, which is also another very possible allergen for rhinitis, allergic cough and asthma.
So, 2 possible sources of allergens here. Dust mite droppings and then mold and its spores.
Actually in the aircon FCU, a large % is actually mold and not dust or skin flakes or what (which would hold dust mites/its droppings).

Some more....... you can just search it yourself.
BTW i don't think it's just the aircon filter of the FCU - that's prob just some limitation of the study as they are in the medical field, not AC field. :D If you have ever tried to DIY, you'd know what i mean.

You can use APs to "fix" this issue - that is to use an ACH (Air changes per hour) of > 10.
eg for a MBR, it's around 30 cubic metres? 5 x 3.5 x 2.8, times 0.7 coz of the furnishings.
You'd need 300 m3/hr of CADR.
You can't achieve that practically with a single unit of Xiaomi 3H, sqair, whatever....due to noise.
You would need multiples, or a single large unit operating in low-med speeds.


Mold in car aircons

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2306019/Abstract
Eight cars belonging to patients who were found to have exacerbation of allergic rhinitis and bronchial asthma after turning on the air conditioner in their cars were examined. Mold concentrations inside the passenger compartment with the a/c turned off and at different climate control settings were lower than concentrations in the outside air. After turning on the air conditioner to "Max", cultures obtained at various intervals revealed that mold concentrations decreased significantly with time. Furthermore, placement of a filter at the portal of entry of outside air significantly reduced the mold concentration in the passenger compartment.


One more regarding dust mite allergens
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18038805/

Detection of mite allergens in the dust of filter-net and air of air-conditioned room​

 
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herz22

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Thank you for all the sharing about getting aircon serviced, beddings and curtains. My spouse and I vacuum the beddings regularly and changed out our curtains to roller blinds. Our aircon servicing is done every month and general cleaning is daily.

As I had shared earlier, all available AP within my budget has been compared and finally chose to buy Sqair. The reasons are cheaper to change the HEPA filters, lower electrical consumption, quiet and affordable.
 

WussRedXLi

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Thank you for all the sharing about getting aircon serviced, beddings and curtains. My spouse and I vacuum the beddings regularly and changed out our curtains to roller blinds. Our aircon servicing is done every month and general cleaning is daily.

As I had shared earlier, all available AP within my budget has been compared and finally chose to buy Sqair. The reasons are cheaper to change the HEPA filters, lower electrical consumption, quiet and affordable.

Wow.....aircon servicing done monthly? I suspect that is just general servicing done (check the video above)...the $15-30 type. My personal experience is that it might not be sufficient as the cleaning is not "deep" enough.


But i guess you'd have to gauge yourself, coz only when one DIY and check the insides like the internal of the evaporator coil, the back drainage, the blower wheel, then would you be able to see if it is clean enough.

Sometimes even with chemical wash (the $70-80 type), some service providers do not clean the back coil.

And obviously can't do the chemical overhaul ($150) too often. Various reasons mentioned above.


Generally in order to do a good cleaning, what i have found is that you'd need a good enough pressure water jet + a cleaner (eg evaporative coil cleaner) + good enough cleaning frequency to maintain.
For the back coil and back drain area, you'd also need a special attachment to reach the back coil/drainage area. I think drain area still not so impt for allergies as generally i think that area does not spread the allergens coz not in the direct airflow path.



Of coz it's just a heads up and my experience. This thread (and part 1) has been running for what....7 years. Sure every now and then there would be pax coming in to mention allergies and for sure there are many other readers as well. Is perennial issue over here esp with AC usage. lol . I think no less than 10 mentions about this liao. :D



ps. Every time i post regarding Aircon and allergies sure got pax PMing me to quote for my service. So just take the chance here to mention, do not PM me for AC washing services. :D
 
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WussRedXLi

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This is the type of general servicing that i was talking about, is not sufficient even though many think that this is good enough (very typical in the AC thread and then some even question why must DIY since $15-20 gao dim). Then some of them wonder if i am telling the truth coz that kind of general servicing be it done by pros or DIY didn't really help with their allergies. lol :ROFLMAO: Already mentioned, the cleaning MUST BE THOROUGH be it DIY or professionally done, or else it won't work.
If the evaporator coil is not even flushed and the back coil is not cleaned, how to be clean enough? (vacuuming at the surface does not do anything much at all)

You can use an AP to try to fix this, but its not gonna help optimally with just 1 unit alone unless you can gun it at max speed (> 300 m3/hr) and can tahan the noise at night. Of coz you might find a bit of alleviation of the symptoms, but my experience is that it's not gonna be anywhere close to 100%
eg It might be limited in use at say 100 m3/hr?

Of coz both cleaning your AC thoroughly + AP is just gonna help things to a much better level. (and of coz all your other possible allergen sources like beddings etc)
In fact in my case it's quite rare that we'd have to pop antihistamines nowadays.

The only remaining triggering factor is if i blast the aircon too quickly and drop the temperature + RH% too low too fast.




Bonus pic, the back coil (the evaporator coil numbered 1)
This is a side cut-out pic of the aircon FCU
I5T4L9w.jpg


Back coil





One more vid to illustrate how a chemical wash (esp with high pressure jets) differ from general servicing in case there is still confusion, though for frequent cleaning needed for allergies, you might not want to use alkaline coil cleaners as mentioned in previous posts above. Main difference is that the evaporator coil and the innards are all fully flushed with water and a cleaner, not just "wiped and vacuumed".

 
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WussRedXLi

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Oh....just one more piece of info that allergic pax and families might be interested in.

The particle size of the allergens of both mold, spores, dust mite feaces and also dust mite bodies are not that super small that it can remain suspended for a long period of time. This has been long the argument by medical experts that APs don't bring as much relieve as people think they might help with.....but my view is that they still do help, esp if you can gun it to a high enough ACH in your room (in most HDBs that'd be > 300 m3/hr).

But ultimately, source control is quite key. You think you could be doing a good job with the cleaning + AP, but as long as 1 source is not being cleaned correctly and sufficiently, your allergies would still remain.

What this simply means is that if your allergies are still existent, albeit lowered in level, that means there is still 1 thing that you missed or have not been doing sufficiently.

It really took us decades just to "fix" this allergy issue....personally i have been suffering for over 4 decades. :cry: Literally every day wake up also blocked nose and sneezing, tried all those stuff like nasal flush netipot etc. Only solid solution is antihistamines and nasal spray, but of coz you know those you cannot use for long time.
Luckily have finally reached there now liao.
Was only forced to really take it very seriously after our kids were born (think there is some genetic predisposition as well, coz my father sama sama) and took a few years to embark on the DIY aircon cleaning route as well. (been seriously started to use APs in 2007 with Sharp).

Coz the kids also have allergic cough initially, which could worsen into asthma if not treated sufficiently and the condition worsens and progressess ( i do not have allergic cough/asthma)....ie cough-based "asthma" becomes "classic" asthma.
You don't really wanna play with classic asthma, it's damn lehceh to deal with moderate/severe asthma. Allergic cough which could also be influenced by the rhintis due to postnasal drip etc. Really too many factors and possibilities to list here and can't be explained fully by GPs, just hopefully manage it nia. :unsure:


https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/174...ns from,approximately 20 microns in diameter.
 
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WussRedXLi

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One more thing to share, my colleague also went for radiofrequency turbinate reduction, but this type of case is more of those serious and chronic nasal obstruction that even antihistamines and nasal decongestants cant help much.

The above reduction of allergens help, but then as you'd know sometimes it's not easy to do nor are they cheap (imagine if you are doing a chemical wash kind of deep cleaning every month or 2, it's gonna cost) esp if the allergy cases are serious and so need multiple units of Air Purifiers in several rooms in order to get that min 10 ACH @ low noise levels, or aircon wash due to several pax being allergic in several bedrooms.

But i guess still better and cost less than surgery.....if multiple pax have allergies then no brainer, go for allergen reduction all out. ;)
There is also the risk of any surgery, no matter how small it is...check with your ENT if yours is s serious case.
I cannot accept the surgery route + also mine is multiple pax affected namely me, 2 kids + father, hence so much "hardcore" effort into the allergen reduction route.
In 2015 haze i remember in the part 1 thread i was gunning 9 air purifiers in 2 houses. lol.
 

DriftKing

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I assume the takeaway is, one simply cannot full blast ap for a while, then drop back to low noise/speed level as the Aircon will reintroduce the allergen back to the room? And it needs at least medium (at least for XM 3H) or higher to counter this?
Side track a bit, Actually how do we know if there are dust mites or not? Do they bite?
 

Lucky177

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Last time got mentioned in old thread. I also used to have running nose and sneezing almost every morning in the past... used to take piriton if worsen.

AP to a certain extend can help, but I believe lifestyle and diet plays an important role.
 
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