Another convert to property! :)

arctician

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If you pour your money into SPX at 5x leverage in 2010, you would be looking at more than 500% capital gain. Why bother with property?

this is easy to say on hindsight..one attractive thing about ppty is one has the chance to buy below fair market value, whereas for stock prices are dynamic

so u have additional margin of safety for real estate
 

crossfitter

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Why didn't these friends of yours decide to sell? There is a time to buy and a time to sell for all assets. Guess they bought into the whole idea of 'passive' income via real estate without having really looked at the entire picture.

Its also not an easy market to sell now......and I think they just want the market to recover a little before selling
 

crossfitter

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Those numbers look alright to me.

And yes you are right about the non-existent yield, property is not a good investment right now, the glut is putting downward pressure on rents and in the long run, property prices are a function of rents and interest rates. The only reason why property prices have not dived in spite of the glut is due to persistently low interest rates.

absolutely right. you just need int rates to spike up a little to see how many people start selling as yield less than int rates.
 

wahkao3

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honestly i dont like property

To invest, you need to cherry. I got no time to visit 800 properties in singapore to decide on investment

but for stocks, its easier


unless, property investment suddenly become low risk high return. that will attract me!
 

Majestic12

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Its also not an easy market to sell now......and I think they just want the market to recover a little before selling

Ah, the average investor mentality. Back in 2013 I was telling all my clients and father to unload their investment properties specifically for capital gains. Those who listened, benefitted.
 

SBC

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Many had Cheong to J Gateway at night to submit cheque to Siam ABSD.

Around $1500 psf pricing. Think is crazy.
 

RM2SSG

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thanks for sharing. how much of closing costs do you anticipate will shave your gain? in terms of maintenance is it very minimal?

Maintenance cost (which include maintenance fees and sinking fund) is about 20% of my total expenses. The apartment is still relative new and I have not had the need to repaint or replace any of the fixtures. I am lucky to have good tenants so far.

As for closing cost, I assume you are talking what I'd need to pay to sell the apartment, then it would be the normal agent fees, legal fees and return the outstanding loan to bank. I am not subjected to the other cooling measures as the unit was bought before they came into effect.
 

cybercom8

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Ah, the average investor mentality. Back in 2013 I was telling all my clients and father to unload their investment properties specifically for capital gains. Those who listened, benefitted.

pro, can sic when to start buying again? snetosa condo can buy or not? lately got a few $1300-1400 psf deals
 

SBC

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Looks at the strong response on EC Treasure Crest today.
Easily > 70% sold on day 1..
 

focus1974

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if you guys have time, go thru' the straits time or whatever old newspaper articles about property. Best if you can read thru 1970, 1980, 1990, 2000, 2010.

Read the sentiments and views of unaffordability issues, sustainable growth issue, GDP cannot go up further issue, aging population, declining birthrate. You will discover every era, there is the same issue and every era, the price rises higher than the previous peak.

The gist of it is this : If you believe in inflation, you will have to accept prices will rise to keep up with inflation. (why is there inflation? Look at the money growth/printing). How does prices rises up with inflation? thru' income inflation. USA was a developed nation, Australia was a developed nation earlier than Singapore. They have vast land enough for their population. But did that stop the prices from rising? Why is it not stopping? Look at your basic necessities, did they stay stagnant? Why?

Of course, like I mentioned, property investing is more of the cycle investing. Don't hold for the expectation of 5yrs. Hold it for the expectation of 10yrs or longer. You hold for the capital appreciation and rental is to keep your investment afloat without you paying(or paying a little more for it). You need to buy roughly near the trough or beginning of the recovery. The property market is not as efficient as the stock market as the players involved are mostly uneducated and dealing with emotions more than financial judgement. So the trough and recovery is not like stock market where you missed out one month and that's it. it will take a good 6months before most market participants feel confident it is sustainable.
 

PostCountWarrior[+1]

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I compare property to stock market, since this is what many people who have funds will be thinking to.

1) If property and stock market have the same rate of growth, the property will make more, simply because its leveraged. In this regard, can replicate by getting leverage and buying the stock index like STI or SPX for example.

2) Property has higher capital outlay. Stock market can trade with a few thousand dollars.

3) Can earn passive income by rental, technically you could replicate the same and leverage and borrow money to buy a basket of dividend stocks. Those dividends should be able to pay for your interest and have some left. But you say you leverage and buys stocks, the stock market go down how? Well same thing property price go down, you also in trouble with your leverage.

4) Property needs a lot more work. research, go down to ground, have foresight, bargain with seller or buyer or tenant, consider lease remaining. Technically stock research also need more work like looking at annual reports, but if you are lazy like me, you just buy the equity index like STI or SPX. risk of one company going bust is smaller as its a basket of stocks. Technically if you own a portfolio of properties, you are safe too, but unless you are really rich, you are just going to own just a few properties so your risk becomes higher, if one of them suddenly have issue, like seaview condo suddenly got one condo develop infront of you, then you are in trouble.

bottom line property can make money, alot of them are in Singapore, but it takes alot of work and capital outlay. if you have other commitments like me, might as well leverage and buy a basket of equity indices, close your eyes and come back 10 years later.
 

wahkao3

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1) If property and stock market have the same rate of growth, the property will make more, simply because its leveraged. In this regard, can replicate by getting leverage and buying the stock index like STI or SPX for example.

i think the companies u buy, also have an internal leverage
 

Majestic12

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It's interesting you started with 1970, since that was the decade where interest rates led by the US Federal Reserve were at an all time high before they fell to a historic low over the next 40+ years.

Given the fact that interest rates reflect the cost of money which has been steadily declining to an absolute low over the last 40 years, how much remaining upside is there, really? It is already a bonus if interest rates do not climb at all in the current environment.

The news over the decades about fundamental factors and challenges are a decoy. Looking underneath at the hard numbers is a lot more useful.

Another factor is demographics. In the 70s, the baby boomers were on average in their 20s and 30s. Move forward 40+ years later and this same group of people are retiring or have retired. It is no secret that this segment of the population is the mover and shaker for the rest of us by sheer volume. They shape most spending and investing trends, not Gen X, Gen Y and the millennials.

Therefore the solution for aspiring and existing property investors is to pray and campaign extremely hard that the government will increase the population to 10 million. There is no other alternative.

There is minimal capital appreciation when you are holding investment properties at rock bottom interest rates - unless we go into negative territory. As interest rates decline, there is a greater flow of capital within the economy, or 'flow' so to speak, which powers asset prices higher. If you want to flip with a margin of safety, do it when rates are high and the market signals that rates will move lower.

The key then is to examine the 'spread' so to speak, between nominal interest rates and real interest rates.

With the factors mentioned above, especially demographics, real interest rates are unlikely to match those of the decades prior in light of an aging demography globally.

Translation: Properties would not crash much, but neither will we see the outsized returns of the past that easily, especially since Singapore has moved from developing to developed status.

It is natural to think that the asset class you made the bulk of your wealth from will be evergreen. However, I think we need to question those assumptions from time to time to examine if they still hold true in an ever changing environment through a longer time perspective.

if you guys have time, go thru' the straits time or whatever old newspaper articles about property. Best if you can read thru 1970, 1980, 1990, 2000, 2010.

Read the sentiments and views of unaffordability issues, sustainable growth issue, GDP cannot go up further issue, aging population, declining birthrate. You will discover every era, there is the same issue and every era, the price rises higher than the previous peak.

The gist of it is this : If you believe in inflation, you will have to accept prices will rise to keep up with inflation. (why is there inflation? Look at the money growth/printing). How does prices rises up with inflation? thru' income inflation. USA was a developed nation, Australia was a developed nation earlier than Singapore. They have vast land enough for their population. But did that stop the prices from rising? Why is it not stopping? Look at your basic necessities, did they stay stagnant? Why?

Of course, like I mentioned, property investing is more of the cycle investing. Don't hold for the expectation of 5yrs. Hold it for the expectation of 10yrs or longer. You hold for the capital appreciation and rental is to keep your investment afloat without you paying(or paying a little more for it). You need to buy roughly near the trough or beginning of the recovery. The property market is not as efficient as the stock market as the players involved are mostly uneducated and dealing with emotions more than financial judgement. So the trough and recovery is not like stock market where you missed out one month and that's it. it will take a good 6months before most market participants feel confident it is sustainable.
 

sgdividends

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actually i was thinking that if the birth rate keeps falling. The baby boomers dying off eventually and they are a very large proportion of our economy and they offload their properties to a smaller younger generation.

Wont their be excess supply?

I think the baby boomers time properties are good as the demographics support it...they are the huge demand.

So property might not be a good investment in the future, unless a massive migration into singapore takes place
 

haylui

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actually i was thinking that if the birth rate keeps falling. The baby boomers dying off eventually and they are a very large proportion of our economy and they offload their properties to a smaller younger generation.

Wont their be excess supply?

I think the baby boomers time properties are good as the demographics support it...they are the huge demand.

So property might not be a good investment in the future, unless a massive migration into singapore takes place

That's why government encourage people to give birth more.
Even if birth rate not keeping up, there are plenty of ways to keep the price at certain level...
 

Majestic12

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And that is why everybody vested in the real estate market here, which by policy default means every local and PR with roots here, pray that the government opens the floodgates for a 10 million population. :)

actually i was thinking that if the birth rate keeps falling. The baby boomers dying off eventually and they are a very large proportion of our economy and they offload their properties to a smaller younger generation.

Wont their be excess supply?

I think the baby boomers time properties are good as the demographics support it...they are the huge demand.

So property might not be a good investment in the future, unless a massive migration into singapore takes place
 

undiscern

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Capital repayment cannot be treated as part of expenses. Coz eventually you are getting a fully paid condo with a lot of cash value inside.
Your calculation will be correct if your condo doesn't worth a single cent after you fully repay it.

Secondly, current depressed price is just a very small percentage of transacted value, it is not correct to put capital depression in the picture since most of the owners with holding powers won't sell during this period.
8 Riversuites is 99 leasehold, by the time finish loan payment, indeed the worth of it would have dropped consider the remaining lease left.
 
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