Forex Cryptocurrency General Chit Chat Thread 2019

Shiny Things

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TOTALLY wrong again.. and YES...I know options inside and out...upside down and right side over...I can do it blindfolded and with one hand tied behind my back

I mean, I’m pretty confident I’m right about “professional FX options traders never trade ITM options”. After ten years in the interbank market, I know what I’m doing around FX options. Nobody trades ITM options because:
1) Since 2003, when NAB Melbourne’s options desk was using ITM options to cover up the massive funding costs on their buried loss position, banks’ risk teams look for large volumes of ITM option trades as a giveaway sign of dodgy trading activity;
2) Since 2008, when funding markets really started to blow up, different banks have massively different funding costs, so it’s hard to agree on the discount rates for those premiums; the bigger the premium, the bigger the discrepancy, and ITM options have bigger premiums.

Are you sure you have three decades of FX options market experience? I think we’d have crossed paths before if you did.

Can you help me out here, getting back to our original question - what’s a “gut trade”? I know what I’ve learned it is, but I’d love to know what you understand it to be.
 
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Shiny Things

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TOTAL hogwash....you don't even know what you are talking about...how would an option trader setup for a butterfly if this was the case???..or a condor...or a convo or re-convo...what about ratio spreads and ratio backspreads???...and what will happen to all the synthetics??...not a good idea to make reckless sweeping statements when you don't have any idea what you are talking about

I know you don’t know what you’re talking about, because you’re taking equity-options-market terminology and trying to apply it in FX options markets.

In FX options land, a condor is called a butterfly, and they’re done by spreading two OTM strangles against each other, so there’s no ITM options involved. Synthetic forwards don’t trade unless you trade them for a customer, because the actual forwards market is much more liquid. Conversions don’t trade.

Like I said, I did this professionally for a decade. Would you like to keep this conversation going?
 
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Shiny Things

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10 years in the markets is nothing to crow about...you are still a newbie. You question my time in the market??... ok... I was Simex local and traded in the pit...you may not know the existence of Simex.... I was in the market when Simex made the 5 3-minute millionaires...when Ronald Reagan said...sorry honey, I forgot to duck...when George Soros broke the Bank of England and when Nick Leeson broke Barings

Ahh, then I think I see where the argument’s coming from; pit traders and OTC markets have their own lingo and their own conventions. (If I ever traded an ITM option my middle office would be on the phone in five seconds flat asking what the hell I was playing at.) Sort of a shame the pits are dead and it’s all gone electronic; you ever miss them?

For what it’s worth, I was on the desk when vols collapsed in the mid-00s and 1mth KRW vol traded on a 3 handle; when Lehman exploded and I made 8x my budget in a year; when FX Concepts was still around and they ran the market over in short-dated NZD vol in 2011; when the Big One hit Japan and my boss tried to sell yen vol while the tsunami was sweeping across the country on live TV... fun times.

Getting back to the original question: what do you think a “gut trade” is?
 
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Shiny Things

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I don't think what it is...I use it all the time...if you don't know what it is do a google

I did, and every answer I got back said the same thing that I said: it’s “a long gut spread is buying an ITM put and buying an ITM call, same expiry date, different strikes. A short gut spread is selling an ITM put and selling an ITM call, same expiry date, different strikes”. Is that not what a gut trade is?

no matter which market you are using it in...a condor and a butterfly is NOT the same thing...

OK, how are they different? Remember that I’m saying “the thing that’s called a condor in equity- and pit- land is called a butterfly in OTC interbank land”.
 
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DukeCS33

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I mean, I’m pretty confident I’m right about “professional FX options traders never trade ITM options”. After ten years in the interbank market, I know what I’m doing around FX options. Nobody trades ITM options because:
1) Since 2003, when NAB Melbourne’s options desk was using ITM options to cover up the massive funding costs on their buried loss position, banks’ risk teams look for large volumes of ITM option trades as a giveaway sign of dodgy trading activity;
2) Since 2008, when funding markets really started to blow up, different banks have massively different funding costs, so it’s hard to agree on the discount rates for those premiums; the bigger the premium, the bigger the discrepancy, and ITM options have bigger premiums.

Are you sure you have three decades of FX options market experience? I think we’d have crossed paths before if you did.

Can you help me out here, getting back to our original question - what’s a “gut trade”? I know what I’ve learned it is, but I’d love to know what you understand it to be.

I would second Shiny Things on this. Over the last decade, compliance would not allow in the money option trades to be dealt save for exceptional reasons. Even rollover of contracts on a historical basis require approvals to be given before it is allowed. The main reason is to avoid tax fraud and hiding of losses. Even MAS has specific rules around these.
With the advent of Basel 3, Credit Value Adjustment (CVA) and Funding Value Adjustment (FVA) became serious considerations to the point that Desks may blow up if they do not adjust for these and not catering to the in the moneyness of option premiums is a sure way of losing money for most of these desks.
If VanillaBinary were a professional with 3 decades of experience, he would know standard market conventions (not knowing does suggest a lack of knowledge or he may have been taught by a fake who claims to be a professional) and the way options are dealt. eg, when the pros deal in options which involve several legs, they would not be spread on all legs... only a spread would be applied to one of the option leg while the other options would be choiced (ie the middle of the bid offer spread would be applied) I have also the same observation that few professionals (interbank traders, hedge fund and real money accounts) deal in in the money options.

A retail player would be spread on all legs and therefore subject to a higher "transaction cost" I would still stick to the view that retail players should not be dabbling with options unless he or she knows the intricacies of option pricing. Doing an occasional one if one has a very strong view may be a way to express that view but transacting it on a systematic basis and in the highlight example of selling naked options, especially without regards to levels, pricing or volume is a losing proposition over the long run. There is simply no edge.

A pit trader is merely a good trader who can read the emotions of the pit, trading the moment and maybe a good understanding of the marco variables that drive prices. At low levels, he just knows yours / mine. To know how to trade options, one would need to go beyond that and understand option pricing methodology. If one simply dismisses standard terminology, then one is likely to blow up his account or just mispriced his trades. There are more considerations other than yours / mine.

As for the self proclaimed 100% win rate using straddle options or so called guts trade, one may be winning in terms of direction. you buy a call and put at the same strike and when the market moves up or down, you may make. But when you consider the premiums paid, are you really making or losing? Add that to the fact that retail has no edge in option pricing, does one really have a 100% winning strategy? When vols are high, the premiums paid tend to be larger as well - so if Vanilla likes high vols and is doing straddles, his transaction cost tends to be very high. On the other hand, based on his trades so far, I can only see naked options being sold. In that, one would like high vols but it just takes one trade to wipe out all his premiums collected to date. The effectiveness of selling naked options have been well documented - so I would urge readers who are contemplating such strategies to research further and think twice.
 
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atf0007

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You may claim it but it is very clear you don't know your way around options at all.

10 years in the markets is nothing to crow about...you are still a newbie. You question my time in the market??... ok... I was Simex local and traded in the pit...you may not know the existence of Simex.... I was in the market when Simex made the 5 3-minute millionaires...when Ronald Reagan said...sorry honey, I forgot to duck...when George Soros broke the Bank of England and when Nick Leeson broke Barings

cheh…. living in past glory … still one to dismiss other people with 10 years experience - wake up lah - pit trading liaoz so what you pit trader. Old knowledge - you sound like lau ah pek haven't wake up yet. you can quote "Simex made the 5 3-minute millionaires" means you not one - no wonder trade so small size and talk so hao lian.
 

atf0007

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Yes you are 100% right...small fry here compared to big timer like you....but tell me...why are you jealous ??

aiyoh - so negative. if you good, I respect. No need to get jealous of a fake. ahahaaa - so haolian…. kena exposed liaoz still so haolian.
 

MrPippen

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Just follow the account value...if it increase it means taking in profits...if it is decreasing it means taking in losses...if it shows consistent increases all the time it means 100% wins all the time

I accept your premise but reject your conclusion.
 

Shiny Things

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I did, and every answer I got back said the same thing that I said: it’s “a long gut spread is buying an ITM put and buying an ITM call, same expiry date, different strikes. A short gut spread is selling an ITM put and selling an ITM call, same expiry date, different strikes”. Is that not what a gut trade is?

VB, you still haven’t answered my questions:
1) Is that definition of “gut trade” above the same thing you’re talking about?
2) If that definition is the same one you’re talking about: why would anyone ever do that in preference to the OTM strangles?
3) If that definition is the same one you’re talking about: how is that a “100% guaranteed sure win” strategy?

The reason everyone’s ripping on you is because you won’t answer the questions. I’m not questioning your experience; you know enough pit slang that I’m convinced you’ve done this before (though the way you dismissed DukeCS33 was pretty rude. Everything he said was absolutely correct).
 

DukeCS33

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It is quite clear you have never step foot in the pit because you say a lot but know little. Yous/mine is not used in the pit unless you want to get laughed at and chased out. Yours/ mine is used OTC at currency desks and sized in lakhs or mios. at/on is used on the pits and sized in lots the desk and the pit use different languages


Your / mine was used as an analogy rather than a description of what transpired in the pit. With due respect, I am not belittling your profession as a pit trader but am flagging the higher bar in terms of knowledge and skillset required to be an options trader. The pit is the past and replaced with electronic trading (with Singapore doing away with it as well). And since you are talking yourself up as an option expert, then one would expect that you would know the standard conventions.

You are free to dispute my post with counter opinions and facts. I am merely writing because readers can be misled with your assertions - and your 100% win rate trade ideas are just not proven at all. The topic of selling naked options or doing straddles and strangles is not new and there is not any proof of a systematic edge. Feel free to rebut me with studies or even back testing results rather than to reply with one liners saying I am ignorant.

btw, I do not need to wait 20 years - your account would have blown up by the next crisis if you continue doing what you are doing. I do not wish that of you - its a mere friendly advice against such trades.
 

Mr. Wood

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Brexit or brstay?


Tue Mar 19
9:30am AUD Monetary Policy Meeting Minutes
6:30pm GBP Average Earnings Index 3m/y

Wed Mar 20

GBP Parliament Brexit Vote:s12:
6:30pm GBP CPI y/y

Thu Mar 21
3:00am USD FOMC Economic Projections
3:00am USD FOMC Statement
3:00am USD Federal Funds Rate
3:30am USD FOMC Press Conference
6:45am NZD GDP q/q
9:30am AUD Employment Change
9:30am AUD Unemployment Rate
5:30pm CHF SNB Monetary Policy Assessment
6:00pm CHF SNB Press Conference
6:30pm GBP Retail Sales m/m
9:00pm GBP MPC Official Bank Rate Votes
9:00pm GBP Monetary Policy Summary
9:00pm GBP Official Bank Rate

Fri Mar 22
5:15pm EUR French Flash Services PMI
5:30pm EUR German Flash Manufacturing PMI
5:30pm EUR German Flash Services PMI
9:30pm CAD CPI m/m
9:30pm CAD Core Retail Sales m/m
 

MrPippen

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Nope...he has some truths but it is all twisted so he is using small truths to tell a big lie.

I am not giving any answers as I am not here to convince or try to convinced anyone. I am not selling anything, I am not offering to teach anyone..would be crazy to do that...I would search for talent if I find it here but no such luck...well it might still happen.

I am doing this to set a marker that I can in the future make a reference to so that it can be seen that the 100% win loophole has been here since this time mark

Why you can show open positions but cannot show closed trades history ah? :o
 

DukeCS33

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I would urge anyone reading here not to try dabbling in these trades. You do not have the depth of knowledge to come out a winner here...it looks easy only because it is executed by one who is very much skilled in the art...like they say...don't try this at home...you could end up hurt...actually it is not a could...you WILL end up very much hurt

Thank you for clarifying - maybe what I have written may be ambiguous so let me restate.
In the context that I have written, it was meant to discourage selling naked options. There has been studies done and conclusions made that such strategies do not make money. And when such a strategy has no systematic edge, whether you are skilled or not, you still end up losing money.
So it is quite a stretch to believe that an options expert ( such as Vanilla whether real or self -proclaimed) can make money with a method that has no systematic edge.
 

Mr. Wood

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tvc_86fd0f95aa3b3926091d17bcf80e00e4.png
 

DukeCS33

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Nope...he has some truths but it is all twisted so he is using small truths to tell a big lie.

I am not giving any answers as I am not here to convince or try to convinced anyone. I am not selling anything, I am not offering to teach anyone..would be crazy to do that...I would search for talent if I find it here but no such luck...well it might still happen.

I am doing this to set a marker that I can in the future make a reference to so that it can be seen that the 100% win loophole has been here since this time mark

Play of words? many small truths would result in a big lie? Like I say, feel free to dispute what I have written. If you are not able to, then it is telling enough.
 
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