(GPGT)Espresso machine hoot

[Lazy_Tiger]

I did not read your wot of irrelevant desciption just to belittle others who challenge your theory.

1. I think you still did not get the point that i'm talking about 0.5 degree difference is comparing between E61 versus an actively heated grouphead like BZ. In simpler terms, how much more flunctuation between actively heated groupheads versus E61.
Again, it's there but negligible. I did not deny there's a flunctuation.
I did not look at the graph of BZ, i was looking at other similarly heated groupheads back then to make a comparison how much fluctuation can there be.

But since you like to read in your own interpretation, then be it.
You can stand by whatever you want, you know we know can already.

2. As for the start up time by Eric.
Actually Eric did mentioned it's not possible to put his thermometre on the BZ like the same way it's done for E61.
Eric's thermometer adaptor for non-E61 espresso machines - Home-Barista.com

So they are placed at different locations just for a rough measurement and is base on his own personal deduction, for the BZ, thermocouples are placed much further at the end of the head, on the cooler steel surface. Actually it's not the same architecture, so i don't see how to measure fairly in the first place.

If we measure the same way for the E61, i don't think the start up time will be just 30 min for hx and 45 mins for double boilers.

Where the thermometres are place?

BZ(The red dot, further up, on the steel surface which is much harder to heat up than Copper/brass)

E61(insert inside)

Why will one want to use up so much water?
I'm not sure why you must insist the i only mean flushing through the grouphead? What if someone is using his water wand?
Ya whoever using water wand be must mental in your interpretation.
The manufacturers much be all mental to install a water wand too.

And like someone pointed out, please don't use charts from a double boiler to compare against a hx to claim VBM is much more superior. Double boilers have a dedicated boiler, so of course it will maintain heat stabilitiy better on continuous use.


Anyway since you are so happy with your $4k Double Boiler VBM, go ahead and enjoy using.
As well as enjoying your coffee from Highlander concidentally.
I've no opinion in that.

BTW just fyi, i'm using an E61, not Bezzera.

Lol. I know you did read my WOT because what follows from you is exactly a weak attempt to refute what I said. You have been proven wrong about your claim about the bezzera 0.x degree accuracy and now you are just beating around the bush.
20 min to reach brewing temp and a fluctuating group head....

I don't claim vbm makes the best machines. Bezzera clearly has better finishing but when presented with temp accuracy figures with the vbm over measurements that expobar groupheads over heat over at idle due to poor thermosyphon design, i chose the vbm because i know how important temp stability is to making consistent espresso. And I will share this knowledge with those who are interested to buy a machine. I will say this again VBM does not make the best machines for everyone's needs.....just sharing what i know.

Like I said the water wand is a non issue for thermal stability of the e61 HX unless you flush all the water out one go. whether e61 or not drawing out so much water from a the boiler also needs time for the boiler to stabilise. so not much difference.. Oh yah double boiler machines don't have this issue. The watertap is from the steam boiler. thermosyphon is from the brew boiler. so plus points for double boilers again. Good for newbies to know too if they have the money to invest and drawing out lots of water is important to them...

Yah erics thermometer can't be placed on the BZ. The graph is not about measuring using eric's thermometer during a shot. its a thermocouple attached to the group head to show the fluctuation. and yes I still maintain there is too much temp fluctuation from using active heaters so close to the group head. Whats the point of your argument....the grouphead is still not as accurate as you claim to be. if you want to talk about wbc protocol temp stability of the bz see post #2...
Temperature measurement Bezzera BZ07 PID - Home-Barista.com

I'm not saying the bz is a lousy machine. Heck I may even get one for the office for the price. There is a machine for all budgets but its good for the new buyer to know what he is getting...I don't understand why a certain group of users here esp the mass order group are so defensive when I mention the limitation of the BZ machines...

Whether you claim to use e61 or bz you can still be wrong about the bz.....i was clamouring over the slayer's temp stability too but now it seems there are some issues with the reporting of the temp...I dunno why u have to be so defensive....

 

[compuser]

hiya from your kind of interpretation, whatever.
Draw water from HX won't affect temperature when cold water pumped back in, haha.
The others can read and understand can liao.

Have fun at highlanders and your VBM

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

hiya from your kind of interpretation, whatever.
Draw water from HX won't affect temperature when cold water pumped back in, haha.
The others can read and understand can liao.

Have fun at highlanders and your VBM

sigh...my bad..i'm refering to the e61 hx group head and not just the hx boiler. and so were you during our discussion of the advantage of the bz grouphead. like i said the temp of the e61 group head will still remain fairly stable unless you dump alot of water out. 5kg of brass and the thermosyphon design not directly mounted to the boiler. A bz with water dumped out will also not be able to brew immediately right.....i'm sure u know why...Thats why i said your mental exercise is just academic.

Others read can understand we are talking about the group head

I don't understand why the hate for highlander...those who follow this thread knows how widely i drink. I go there.. about 3-4 times a year for their beans when I decide to explore and their stuff is not bad.
What do you claim to drink anyway? any comparison to make? Oh never mind you are on my ignore list.
Sorry for the butt hurt for proving you wrong and not being able to back up your claims...

 

[patryn33]

Hey guys, I'm going to USA, specifically Las vegas and orlando.
Anybody knows if there are any shops there that have cheaper espresso machines for sale there like the Bezzera BZ09 or anything?
Which machines are recommended for a budget of about 1000-1200?

Why? Because of voltage issues?
What if I order from online stores like www.espressocoffeeshop.com ? They offer international shipping so it should work internationally?
Then where do you guys buy your machines from?

American stores usually don't do 220V.
most places like www.espressocoffeeshop.com is based in Europe.

www.salvatore-espresso.com maybe able to build U a 220V machine but they not in 1-1.2K range.

 

[urbanathlon]

I always think Highlander taste just normal, it's out of their VBM machine. Not sure is it still the same now. Or maybe just a bad shot i had but it's like twice.

Whatever it is, in my honest opinion, the espresso was bitter and pretty weak. There's very little aftertaste lingering. The extraction was pretty runny too.
I wasn't a pro drinker, but the impression i had, it wasn't far off from Nespresso.

The cafes located around Tiong Bahru estate taste much better

 

[urbanathlon]

What would be the best espresso machine set up you would recommend with a budget of 1.5-1.7 k total (machine plus grinder) and where to get them?

I only asked about the bezzera because I noticed that finecoffeecompany was selling it and was contemplating getting it from there as its like the only shop I know sells such machines other than highlander whose machines are out of my budget.

Also is the lelit PL53 better or would a lido 2 be good enough for espresso grinds?

I found the following few threads useful which may answer your question in a better way.

CoffeeGeek - Espresso: Espresso Machines, Best HX for under $1300?

CoffeeGeek - Espresso: Espresso Machines, Best Espresso Machine for ~$1000

CoffeeGeek - Espresso: Espresso Machines, $1300 max budget for espresso

It seems that Bezzera and Expobar are indeed always mentioned and recommended.
Particularly in the first thread, that user JonR10 was the moderator of Coffeegeek.

Read that Bezzera's grouphead requires less flushing or no flushing. Very useful if you ask me.

Also realised that Bezzera is the inventor of espresso machines and has a track record of manufacturing commercial machines for over a hundred years. Not surprised that they invented something practical.

My 2 cents

 

[chikyblink]

wait wait wait, this is getting a bit outta hand here.
c'mon guys, I don't get why some of you are so against tiger. most of the time he's just stating the facts, and sometimes his opinions(aren't we all entitled to?)
if you feel his facts are wrong, feel free to shoot him back with the correct one, instead of waving him off and calling names.

The 0.x degrees is clearly a misunderstanding. when I first read compusor's post I was scratching my head too. later he clarify that the 0.x degrees is just a comparison to the e61 and the difference(0.x degrees) is negligible. so shall we get that outta the way.

I also see the bezzera brand constantly come up in recommendations. that's fine. bezzera's a good brand and value for money. if the MO thread came up earlier I would've bought it. don't get me wrong. I love my VBM too, but the finish on their machines are ridiculous for a big brand. I mean c'mon what does it take to file down on their sharp unfinished edges. everyday when I empty the drip tray I risk cutting myself.
but what I don't see is him pushing VBM. sure, he pull out graphs from their machines, but that's just to prove a point and I don't get why everybody days he's promoting it. did you guys ever read his recommendations? I didn't even heard of the brand francino b4.
you guys recommend bezzera all the time and when he post something remotely close to VBM he's shot down?

also what's the beef with highlander? I just had a shot there about 2 weeks ago. it wasn't bad BUT, it wasn't great either. at least it's drinkable and doesn't taste like crap contrary to what others say. I bought their blends too a couple of times b4 and pulled some great shots from it. the problem, like he said, lies on the handle side of the portafilter.

sure, some of you may feel I'm siding him but rest assured that I'm looking at things on a neutral ground here.
if anyone can point out which of his points are wrong I'll gladly join you guys to shoot him k?

then again, some of you may wave off this post and say "you happy can liao"

now let's get back to discussing all things coffee.

Sent from Samsung SM-N910G using GAGT

 

[IntelFlash]

I found the following few threads useful which may answer your question in a better way.

CoffeeGeek - Espresso: Espresso Machines, Best HX for under $1300?

CoffeeGeek - Espresso: Espresso Machines, Best Espresso Machine for ~$1000

CoffeeGeek - Espresso: Espresso Machines, $1300 max budget for espresso

It seems that Bezzera and Expobar are indeed always mentioned and recommended.
Particularly in the first thread, that user JonR10 was the moderator of Coffeegeek.

Read that Bezzera's grouphead requires less flushing or no flushing. Very useful if you ask me.

Also realised that Bezzera is the inventor of espresso machines and has a track record of manufacturing commercial machines for over a hundred years. Not surprised that they invented something practical.

My 2 cents

The first thread is indeed classic.
The snob got shot till surrendered.

Should stick it in the sticky since it's a faq by amateurs asking what machine to buy for an affordable espresso machine.

Most people are asking for affordable espresso machines with good milk features. Actually the selection is just that few.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

wait wait wait, this is getting a bit outta hand here.
c'mon guys, I don't get why some of you are so against tiger. most of the time he's just stating the facts, and sometimes his opinions(aren't we all entitled to?)
if you feel his facts are wrong, feel free to shoot him back with the correct one, instead of waving him off and calling names.

The 0.x degrees is clearly a misunderstanding. when I first read compusor's post I was scratching my head too. later he clarify that the 0.x degrees is just a comparison to the e61 and the difference(0.x degrees) is negligible. so shall we get that outta the way.

I also see the bezzera brand constantly come up in recommendations. that's fine. bezzera's a good brand and value for money. if the MO thread came up earlier I would've bought it. don't get me wrong. I love my VBM too, but the finish on their machines are ridiculous for a big brand. I mean c'mon what does it take to file down on their sharp unfinished edges. everyday when I empty the drip tray I risk cutting myself.
but what I don't see is him pushing VBM. sure, he pull out graphs from their machines, but that's just to prove a point and I don't get why everybody days he's promoting it. did you guys ever read his recommendations? I didn't even heard of the brand francino b4.
you guys recommend bezzera all the time and when he post something remotely close to VBM he's shot down?

also what's the beef with highlander? I just had a shot there about 2 weeks ago. it wasn't bad BUT, it wasn't great either. at least it's drinkable and doesn't taste like crap contrary to what others say. I bought their blends too a couple of times b4 and pulled some great shots from it. the problem, like he said, lies on the handle side of the portafilter.

sure, some of you may feel I'm siding him but rest assured that I'm looking at things on a neutral ground here.
if anyone can point out which of his points are wrong I'll gladly join you guys to shoot him k?

then again, some of you may wave off this post and say "you happy can liao"

now let's get back to discussing all things coffee.

Sent from Samsung SM-N910G using GAGT

Chiky, the voice of reason as always. You should be the mod if we ever have a singapore coffee drinkers forum. Anyway how's your roast project so far.Hasbean ships excellent greens and you can ask them for their roast advice. I might order a small amount and borrow a behmor just to try it out.

I admit i'm coffeesnob. Sometimes i put my points across too forcefully and need to be checked. But I will stand by what I say and back it up. I will also stand corrected if i'm proven wrong.

 

[prozaizxc]

Thanks so much for the links urbanathlon and everyone who has helped!

I've spoken to the live chat on a website selling espresso machines in europe and they said that the machines are able to be shipped with the British power sockets that we use and that the voltages are not an issue. Also, he claims that customers who have bought from singapore has had no issues.

I understand that Singapore uses a 230V power socket and most of europe uses 220/240 and italy uses 230V power sockets as well and both singapore and italy's frequency is 50Hz (whatever that is) and my source is from Mains electricity by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and http://www.iec.ch/worldplugs/list_bylocation.htm
So, the machines should be able to work in singapore?

Sorry if i sound insistent on buying machines overseas but the savings are absurb if I'm able to get it from online.

I don't really care about the warranty because warranties only last for 1 year from both spinelli for the rancilio Silvia and finecoffeecompany for the bezzera and i doubt the machines would be spoilt within a year of usage and even if it does its a risk I'm willing to take because ill be able to save to much from buying online.

Furthermore, online stores have a much larger variety of machines sold.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

The first thread is indeed classic.
The snob got shot till surrendered.

Should stick it in the sticky since it's a faq by amateurs asking what machine to buy for an affordable espresso machine.

Most people are asking for affordable espresso machines with good milk features. Actually the selection is just that few.

Well if you read carefully actually he wasn't really being a snob. Just offering another suggestion instead of a bz to a newbie buyer. He offered his opinions and pointers why he thinks a more expensive cellini is a better machine than the cheaper bezzera. Some of the points he made about the rocket is valid (sirai ps), some questionable (brass end plates). But in the end he was bullied by the mod (jon10r) and decided to give up CG membership.
If anyone was the snob and behaving like me its jon10r. Oh and he is not well liked in both HB and CG.

Anyway the thread is 4 years old and outdated. THere are other offerings for hx or dbs now like the breville (China) and fracino manual fill (UK). Expobar office stuff is made in china too. BZ's only offering at 1.3usd is the bz07. Cheaper than that is bz09 which is a Single boiler.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

Thanks so much for the links urbanathlon and everyone who has helped!

I've spoken to the live chat on a website selling espresso machines in europe and they said that the machines are able to be shipped with the British power sockets that we use and that the voltages are not an issue. Also, he claims that customers who have bought from singapore has had no issues.

I understand that Singapore uses a 230V power socket and most of europe uses 220/240 and italy uses 230V power sockets as well and both singapore and italy's frequency is 50Hz (whatever that is) and my source is from Mains electricity by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and IEC - World Plugs: List view by location
So, the machines should be able to work in singapore?

Sorry if i sound insistent on buying machines overseas but the savings are absurb if I'm able to get it from online.

I don't really care about the warranty because warranties only last for 1 year from both spinelli for the rancilio Silvia and finecoffeecompany for the bezzera and i doubt the machines would be spoilt within a year of usage and even if it does its a risk I'm willing to take because ill be able to save to much from buying online.

Furthermore, online stores have a much larger variety of machines sold.

the machine can spoil anytime even before one year. its a matter of luck. most of these machines are using parts/electronics common to many brands and parts do fail randomly even with the most stringent qc. If you read the forums there are many who encounter issues within less than 1 year and need servicing and some machines who do without servicing for years.

The issues is not so much the warranty but whether is there any tech who can repair your machine if it spoils. I suggest you check with some of the companies here whether will they are willing to service your machine for a fee just in case before you buy.

You could try fixing yourself but you need to know how to troubleshoot the problem first. Depending on your machine Things like the pressurestat, pid, is easy to buy the parts from coffeeparts.au and fix it yourself but others like boiler leakage etc is very leh cheh.

If you adamant about overseas purchase try to get machines that use generic parts and not proprietary electronics (Eg. breville)


What machine are you getting anyway? Pls tell me its a londinium haha

 

[chikyblink]

londinium! it's one of my sidegrade target other than the strega!
both are spring piston levers.
question: is the londinium able to do unlimited pressure profiling like the witch?
any thoughts on both?

Sent from Samsung SM-N910G using GAGT

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

londinium! it's one of my sidegrade target other than the strega!
both are spring piston levers.
question: is the londinium able to do unlimited pressure profiling like the witch?
any thoughts on both?

Sent from Samsung SM-N910G using GAGT

Hmm...i think the only machine that really offers the greatest flexibiliy in preinfusion and pressure control is a manual lever like pavoni and creminas.

The term preinfusion is also used very widely and can mean different things:
1. progressive preinfusion - more gradual ramp up of pressure to reach either brew pressure or static preinfusion pressure at the start of the shot. (E61, NS SIS system)
2. static preinfusion - applying lower than 9bar brew pressure at the start of the shot, soaking the puck and maintaining this for x number of secs before ramping up to 9 bar full brew pressure.(E61 mid position, hydras, stradas, boiler pressure in lever machines)
3. Electronic preinfusion - activating the pump for 1-2secs to add some water to the puck to allow the puck to swell (usually done at full pump capacity). turn off the pump for x no of secs and then turning on the pump again till the end of extraction. (many super autos, gs3)

Then along comes slayer who confuses everyone and introduces "flow control". A kind of preinfusion usually done at 9 bar (u can reduce if you want) but with very little water output. They claim its very different from what the stradas and hydras do and I think it is.

Londinium is a simple spring lever. The preinfusion can come from boiler pressure about 1-2 bars only i think (pull the lever down and hold it at down position). You can still play with the pressure during the shot by slowing down the rise of the lever during the shot.

The strega seems more flexible and interesting combining the pump and lever. The lever group seems proprietary and not a full commercial sized one like a bosco (I could be wrong). Pump seems to be added to compress the air and fill more water into the cylinder to get a full sized shot otherwise the shots will be small like what you get in a cremina.
A side benefit of the pump is the flexibility of choosing the INITIAL preinfusion pressure. U can turn the pump off after that and hold the lever to get the preinfusion. Seeing how this work, on the strega the preinfusion pressure should decrease slowly because the pump is cut and the spring is not yet activated. Compare this to traditional spring levers who can maintain the preinfusion pressure because boiler pressure is still constantly acting on it. I suppose you could try to maintain a steady preinfusion pressure on a strega after the pump has been cut by slowly releasing the lever but i think its difficult to be really consistent and you won't really know what pressure you are preinfusing at.
Also you can't really lift the lever too early otherwise the chamber is not fully filled yet. (Can this happen if you preinfuse at 3 bar....hmmm)
The strega is interesting cos of the variable preinfusion thing but I was hesitant to buy because I am anal and I want a second machine to be as transparent as possible so that any variable I wanna manipulate can be managed properly.
So whats the other choices? slayer or hydra la
or just heck the pressure numbers and go with a cremina.

 

[chikyblink]

still got one more, the Vesuvius.

 

[chikyblink]

Anyway how's your roast project so far.Hasbean ships excellent greens and you can ask them for their roast advice.

I've been trying out my own blends now rather than roasting SO. Not too bad I would say. But then again I may be tooting my own horn and I seriously think I need a second/third opinion. Could you pm me your address so I can send some over? In fact, any one of you guys who own an espresso machine at home are also welcomed.

As for Hasbean's greens, I've checked, and I don't know if its worth the shipping fees. For example, $58sgd in total for 1kg of Blake greens. Maybe when I get a proper roaster I'll look into purchasing more expensive greens.

 

[chikyblink]

I might order a small amount and borrow a behmor just to try it out.

forgot to ask. Where to get a Behmor in sg?

 

[patryn33]

Thanks so much for the links urbanathlon and everyone who has helped!

I've spoken to the live chat on a website selling espresso machines in europe and they said that the machines are able to be shipped with the British power sockets that we use and that the voltages are not an issue. Also, he claims that customers who have bought from singapore has had no issues.

I understand that Singapore uses a 230V power socket and most of europe uses 220/240 and italy uses 230V power sockets as well and both singapore and italy's frequency is 50Hz (whatever that is) and my source is from Mains electricity by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and IEC - World Plugs: List view by location
So, the machines should be able to work in singapore?

Sorry if i sound insistent on buying machines overseas but the savings are absurb if I'm able to get it from online.

I don't really care about the warranty because warranties only last for 1 year from both spinelli for the rancilio Silvia and finecoffeecompany for the bezzera and i doubt the machines would be spoilt within a year of usage and even if it does its a risk I'm willing to take because ill be able to save to much from buying online.

Furthermore, online stores have a much larger variety of machines sold.

U factor in shipping and gst?

 

[derazor]

U factor in shipping and gst?

Shipping probably about 50Euro then add GST

 

[derazor]

Yesterday went to Papa Palhetta. There have some Single Origins roasted on 20th Jan.