(GPGT)Espresso machine hoot

wook2000

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2000
Messages
639
Reaction score
7
Hard to get any where near cafe latte quality with pre-ground beans and the budget.

Using only pre ground beans will limit you to a pressurized portafilter, which will limit you to the quality of the espresso, but will give you one less headache of getting a grinder and dialing in the shots.

The Gaggia/Rancillo is frequently recommended because it is the closet entry level machine which can come close to cafe quality drinks. However that is with a proper grinder , fresh beans and a good understanding of the machine (temp surfing etc).
 

turboo

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2011
Messages
993
Reaction score
9
Hard to get any where near cafe latte quality with pre-ground beans and the budget.

Using only pre ground beans will limit you to a pressurized portafilter, which will limit you to the quality of the espresso, but will give you one less headache of getting a grinder and dialing in the shots.

The Gaggia/Rancillo is frequently recommended because it is the closet entry level machine which can come close to cafe quality drinks. However that is with a proper grinder , fresh beans and a good understanding of the machine (temp surfing etc).

what is the most recommended entry-level grinder I should get then? don't mind getting manual as long as the grind consistency is good with minimal retention. was recommended the Helor by my friend. is that good or bad?

for ESE pods, any recommendation on where is a good place? that will be for my parents, who are unlikely to bother messing around with the machine.. :o
 
Last edited:

turboo

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2011
Messages
993
Reaction score
9
If you dun mind manual, the helor is a very good choice. If you are comfortable buying from tao bao there are many better and cheaper choices. https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/3830783/+3560

I did a review earlier and posted my findings as above.

Regards to ese pods I am not very familiar with them.

thanks for sharing! just nice that I ordered some stuff from Taobao. Probably will add on a grinder then!

Noted that you posted 3 links for the taobao grinders - did you buy all 3 eventually or only the titanium $133 version? Will the $60+ version also be better than the Helor?

Are all 3 choices suitable for espresso grind? and will you happen to know the correct chinese terms for "conical burr ceramic stepless grinder"?

Lastly,will this be a good choice? Saw that it has more reviews than the other 2 cheaper alternatives: https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?sp...dDnmK&id=559046325778&ns=1&abbucket=13#detail
 

wook2000

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2000
Messages
639
Reaction score
7
I have only bought the Ti version; wonderful grinder.

I have experience with the 1zpresso grinders too, also equally well built and quite hard to go wrong with that brand.

The wonderful grinder design is truely stepless which makes it very easy to fine tune the grind setting from the top.

手摇磨豆机 is the keyword

匿名, 1zpresso, 精彩手摇, TIMEMORE are all pretty solid brands.
 

Knight_Rider

Arch-Supremacy Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2003
Messages
11,100
Reaction score
1
what is the most recommended entry-level grinder I should get then? don't mind getting manual as long as the grind consistency is good with minimal retention. was recommended the Helor by my friend. is that good or bad?

for ESE pods, any recommendation on where is a good place? that will be for my parents, who are unlikely to bother messing around with the machine.. :o

This is a good entry level.

https://papapalheta.com/products/encore

Plus http://gaggia-singapore.com/store/Gaggia-Classic-Original-Manual-Espresso-Machine-p94533517

Budget out by a bit.
 

turboo

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2011
Messages
993
Reaction score
9
1. Light roast, pure arabica are imo "harder" to get the body unless you add damn a lot of coffee. Avoid those lor, unless you really like those bright profiles. But a weaker body doesn't mean the espresso is bad, use your tongue to judge. :o


2. Is due to the packaging. Small roasters can't afford to buy advance packaging machines to use MAP to flush the insider to bring oxidation to stagnation. I bought from a few roasters in SG before, their one way valve don't even work, you can blow air inside from the valve, guess they bought from taobao.


If the coffee after roasting did not rest long enough, the crema will be alot due to the amount of CO2 in it. The coffee profiles don't really come out fully. So it doesn't necessary mean that the more crema, the better it should taste. Tried before with those kopitiam coffee beans, the espresso is like Guinness stout with very thick crema as they just roasted it. :o

thanks guys for the tips. have decided on my gaggia classic with the wonderful titanium burr grinder. just curious - what will happen if I use chinese kopitiam beans for espresso?

just realised that most of the local roasters (e.g. Nylon) quite ex - around $17/200g. Is there any more affordable option, and preferably with free delivery too? staying in the north.. :o:o
 
Last edited:

Lazy_Tiger

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2002
Messages
1,010
Reaction score
21
thanks guys for the tips. have decided on my gaggia classic with the wonderful titanium burr grinder. just curious - what will happen if I use chinese kopitiam beans for espresso?

just realised that most of the local roasters (e.g. Nylon) quite ex - around $17/200g. Is there any more affordable option, and preferably with free delivery too? staying in the north.. :o:o

$17 i think is for their filters coffee. $20+ is for their espresso and its in 300g.

if you are in the area go for highlander if you want something cheaper but pretty decent. a darker roast style.

if you want something delivered try cafebond. Thier coffee from malaysian roasters is cheaper than australian ones. have not tried but one of the most amazing espressos i've tried was from an airport cafe in penang.

if you do let try kopitiam coffee on your machine do let us know how it tastes but i wont recommend it. Some are roasted with sugar and margarine. the smell will stick to you coffee and grinder.

alternatively you can buy larger bags and finish it up by the end of the month.
 

turboo

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2011
Messages
993
Reaction score
9
$17 i think is for their filters coffee. $20+ is for their espresso and its in 300g.

if you are in the area go for highlander if you want something cheaper but pretty decent. a darker roast style.

if you want something delivered try cafebond. Thier coffee from malaysian roasters is cheaper than australian ones. have not tried but one of the most amazing espressos i've tried was from an airport cafe in penang.

if you do let try kopitiam coffee on your machine do let us know how it tastes but i wont recommend it. Some are roasted with sugar and margarine. the smell will stick to you coffee and grinder.

alternatively you can buy larger bags and finish it up by the end of the month.

thanks for the tip! talking about Malaysia, are there any gems in JB that I can get good beans from as well? I prefer dark roast too!
 

testerjp

High Supremacy Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2006
Messages
46,475
Reaction score
15,899
what will happen if I use chinese kopitiam beans for espresso?

Nothing special will happen. It will still work, works very well in fact.


You should see them before. They store in those containers and they will write basic things like whether it's Arabica, Robusta, mix or write information of where it came from.

Iirc I bought the Columbian beans at 22 per kg, you can request for lesser. The quality of the coffee itself is pretty decent, better than many roasters I've seen. Only problem is the coffee haven't rest enough and the roast is too dark, that's why I no longer buy them.

I saw in another shop at yishun selling indo mandheling but never tried it. Not sure when they roast it though.


Just remember to tell them to don't grind. :o
 

Lazy_Tiger

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2002
Messages
1,010
Reaction score
21
thanks for the tip! talking about Malaysia, are there any gems in JB that I can get good beans from as well? I prefer dark roast too!

unfortunately i am familiar with cafes in JB.

actually i have no preference for light or dark roasts. both are very different styles of coffee. I enjoy both immensely. Light roasts are more tricky to brew. have to grind finer, brew at higher temps and yet at the same time try to achieve similar extraction times (minus preinfusion). have to invest in vst baskets or machines that can control the flow rate / pressure and temps. But the investment can be very rewarding, you'll have espresso where the bean's inherent flavours will shine thru without the roasty notes overpowering the overall flavour profile. The acidity makes the coffee interesting too. Its like having a v60 filter brew only much more intense.

enjoy your coffee journey. Start slow and practise consistency. get a 0.1g scale and timer too. brewista makes good scales. some books will help too.
 

patryn33

Arch-Supremacy Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2006
Messages
23,202
Reaction score
80
thanks for the tip! talking about Malaysia, are there any gems in JB that I can get good beans from as well? I prefer dark roast too!

U stay near the JB to go there freq for beans?
if U drink 2 double shot a day, that is like ~252gm a week.

if U like dark roast, some favors are lost in dark roast is it worth getting premium beans? if you taste buds can tell in a blind taste test great otherwise why pay for it?

as for ESE pods if U can get from amazon great. if u order like 100 usually cheaper.

initially when U say less fuzz little work, I was thinking of super auto.. Delongi ESAM 3300 is a very popular super auto but there is no asian model. don't have to get a grinder, the brew group can be wash with dishwasher iirc. no need for u to play with ESE pods and remember to put pin like Gaggia, no worry for getting these little things lost. your parents can use it easily much like your nespresso. the frother system better than Jura will not come flying out creating a mess. no need to learn tamping, no need to get beans and ESE pods for different ppl using machine.
https://www.amazon.com/DeLonghi-ESAM3300-Magnifica-Super-Automatic-Espresso/dp/B000N2YKQ0

since U picked the Gaggia classic there are some things for u to learn and hope you grow to love. some ppl have gone on to slayer or Decent for more control.. they not cheap.
 
Last edited:

turboo

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2011
Messages
993
Reaction score
9
U stay near the JB to go there freq for beans?
if U drink 2 double shot a day, that is like ~252gm a week.

if U like dark roast, some favors are lost in dark roast is it worth getting premium beans? if you taste buds can tell in a blind taste test great otherwise why pay for it?

as for ESE pods if U can get from amazon great. if u order like 100 usually cheaper.

initially when U say less fuzz little work, I was thinking of super auto.. Delongi ESAM 3300 is a very popular super auto but there is no asian model. don't have to get a grinder, the brew group can be wash with dishwasher iirc. no need for u to play with ESE pods and remember to put pin like Gaggia, no worry for getting these little things lost. your parents can use it easily much like your nespresso. the frother system better than Jura will not come flying out creating a mess. no need to learn tamping, no need to get beans and ESE pods for different ppl using machine.
https://www.amazon.com/DeLonghi-ESAM3300-Magnifica-Super-Automatic-Espresso/dp/B000N2YKQ0

since U picked the Gaggia classic there are some things for u to learn and hope you grow to love. some ppl have gone on to slayer or Decent for more control.. they not cheap.

I go to JB for groceries+food, so it's definitely more convenient than going to local roasters which are far from my place.

noted on the comment for dark roast. In that case, what and where is the cheapest I can get away with then?

The ESE pods don't seem very popular on Amazon looking at the number of reviews. Any specific brands to look out for?
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=ese+pods

yeah, my parents can go the ESE route and I can take my time to get the perfect latte. kinda disappointed with Nespresso as I can never replicate the café taste.

Anyway, since the Gaggia can't froth milk and brew espresso at the same time, will there be any quality difference if I use my standalone milk frother instead of the steam wand? putting aside "latte art" for now..

Milk-Frother-Home.jpg


lastly, where do u guys learn best practices for espresso for the gaggia classic? noticed that for youtube, different people give different advice, not sure which to trust more.
 
Last edited:

wook2000

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2000
Messages
639
Reaction score
7
I not too sure about the ese pods being much value for money seeing that per pod is around 50cents?

You could try santino espresso blend..so far it's the cheapest I could find, with a good roast date.. 13 dollars 500 grams, assuming youy use 15g per dose that is about 14 cents per shot as compared to ese 7g/50 cents pod

You could pre ground for your parents and get them to use the pressurised portafilter basket.

There is a big difference between steam milk vs frothed milk. Don't bother about froth milk if your machine is capable of steaming.. I believe your frustrations with the Nespresso is due to the frothed milk.

Try not to over think too much at the moment..get some cheap beans and play around, to get familiar with the machine. the learning curve can be quite steep so try not to over complicate things with too many equipment.
 
Last edited:

patryn33

Arch-Supremacy Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2006
Messages
23,202
Reaction score
80
I go to JB for groceries+food, so it's definitely more convenient than going to local roasters which are far from my place.

noted on the comment for dark roast. In that case, what and where is the cheapest I can get away with then?

The ESE pods don't seem very popular on Amazon looking at the number of reviews. Any specific brands to look out for?
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=ese+pods

yeah, my parents can go the ESE route and I can take my time to get the perfect latte. kinda disappointed with Nespresso as I can never replicate the café taste.

Anyway, since the Gaggia can't froth milk and brew espresso at the same time, will there be any quality difference if I use my standalone milk frother instead of the steam wand? putting aside "latte art" for now..

lastly, where do u guys learn best practices for espresso for the gaggia classic? noticed that for youtube, different people give different advice, not sure which to trust more.

ESE pods are not as popular as nespresso or keurig pods as machines using ESE are just expensive! U cannot really benchmark ESE against nespresso as u really comparing apple to oranges. Do compare ESE brands against each other.

if U fight for the cheaper beans route its really nuts imho.
grow your own beans to roast is cheapest just that the effort is great.
in general the more effort/time u put in the cheaper out of pocket it is thats how everything works isn't it?


perfecting latte with classic a big desire/goal. most ppl cannot achieve what they want with a such machine and choose to move on to higher end machines to perfect their art.

ESE pods is not cheap compare to pre ground but they cheaper than nespresso pods. the reason they are attractive is really convenience and they don't create a mess. if your parents are up to it, they can use pre ground. some older folks just want to make a mess with pre ground, what we are comfortable and don't see it as an issue may not be true for elderly parents. one or 2 elder ppl can do it doesn't mean all can or simply WANT to do it.

my suggestion is pick one and taste it! if the best way produce results U didn't like is the problem u or machine? if U are up to it use a bottomless portafilter and shoot for such results. once u can get the results and still it didn't taste right, then u have to explore other options. U maybe blowing thru alot of beans trying to get it "right".
https://www.wholelattelove.com/gaggia-bottomless-portafilter


just make sure don't lose the little black plastic with the pressurize portafilter.
Coffee-only.jpg
 
Last edited:

Lazy_Tiger

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2002
Messages
1,010
Reaction score
21
if U fight for the cheaper beans route its really nuts imho.
grow your own beans to roast is cheapest just that the effort is great.

ditto to this. unfortunately speciality coffee is a luxury. the cost of good quality beans usually starts at an expensive price at the early stages of the supply chain.

assuming you drink 1 cup everyday. u use a 20g dose with a low retention single dose grinder. assume zero sink shots, you'll run thru 600g in a month. that's $40 per month if you buy only nylon beans (300g for espresso) or $20 plus if you get cheaper beans (usually 250g bags).

if you can overcome your daily caffeine cravings, it is actually good to go cold turkey 1-2 days a week. this will avoid taste fatigue and also will help you save on some coffee.

or you can buy expensive beans once in a while as an indulgence.

strangers reunion is also not too expensive for their espresso blends. i think its about $15-16. the filter single origins are the ones that are really expensive but delicious.

highlander is between $10-12 and its pretty decent and easy to brew.

cafe bond malaysian roasters are about $15.

yahava is about $15

alma micro roastery is $14-19

better barista has free shipping 1 bag per week. $60 for 4 weeks.
 

Lazy_Tiger

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2002
Messages
1,010
Reaction score
21
lastly, where do u guys learn best practices for espresso for the gaggia classic? noticed that for youtube, different people give different advice, not sure which to trust more.

i used a single boiler before. there are 2 main issues, 1st is to wait before steaming which you already know. i never found this much of a problem unless you entertain guests who want to drink lattes.

the 2nd is temp stability. the temp in the boiler can swing by 30 degrees! so it can either mean overly bitter or overly sour shots. to get things right involve timing when you start to pull your shots in the boiler cycle boiler cycle (aka temperature surfing) the tricky thing is that different revisions of a machine will have different components (usually thermostat and heating elements) and hence different boiler cycles. 110v vs 220v versions will also have different boiler timings!

when you have more experience you can mod your machine with pid kits to control the fluctuation.
https://kabalin.blogspot.com/2014/03/gaggia-classic-controlling-temperature.html

if you are not keen to pid it (i never did with mine), here is one quick and dirty method:

1. make sure your machine is warmed up. (20mins, with portafilter partially locked in).

2. grind, remove portafilter, fill basket, and tamp.

3. before inserting the portafilter, wait until the boiler starts boiling and stops (you are at the peak temp, too hot).

4. flush the grouphead until you don't see flash boiling (no steam and bubbles appearing at the shower screen). stop flushing, (you should be at a temp that is just below boiling).

5. insert portafilter and brew. (don't take too long to carry our steps 3-5 otherwise your portafilter will lose its temperature).

6. wait for espresso to cool a bit. taste it. profit?!
too bitter - water too hot, flush more next time
too sour - water too cold, flush less next time.

i highly recommend to do this practice with highlander beans until you get to be very consistent and familiar. they are the easiest to brew and trust me i have tried from many different roasters. don't change beans when you are at the early learning stage as you'll need to change other parameters and may get confused. go to highlander and drink a few shots so you get a reference how a balanced espresso should taste.

how much to dose? really depends on what baskets you are using. i recommend 15g if you are using the stock 58mm portafilter baskets.

how fine to grind? grind fine enough so that a 15g dose will produce a 30g of espresso within 25-30secs.

how hard to tamp? just tamp until you can't compress the beans further. don't overexert. don't do a fancy feather light tamp. don't nutate. this will get you the most consistency.

there is another technique to get consistent temperature but that involves using a timer to countdown the cooling of the boiler from its peak temperature. you will need to do alot of experimentation. online people are saying to wait for the boiler to cool for 20-30secs after the boiler stops boiling. but this really depends on which version or voltage variant you are using. you can go to home barista or gaggiauser group forums to ask what is the correct cool down time for your version of the classic.

have fun and take your time.
 

turboo

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2011
Messages
993
Reaction score
9
Hi guys,

Really helpful advice! Some further questions:

1. After seeing all the recommendations for beans, will it be fine to go with Santino since it's the cheapest @ $13/500g? Will cheaper mean harder to get things right, compared to say Highlander beans?

2. In the interest of time, since I need to wait 20m for warm-up, can I do the milk steaming first prior to pulling the shot?

3. Thought the water actually goes through the shower screen, so how will there be "no steam/bubbles" appearing on the shower screen?

4. How long can I keep an open pack of beans (stored in Lock&Lock) till it loses its optimum taste?

5. When you say 25s, does it mean the brewing stage? Sounds a bit long (though I'm comparing to nespresso)

6. "perfecting latte with classic a big desire/goal. most ppl cannot achieve what they want with a such machine and choose to move on to higher end machines to perfect their art." >> other than PID and HX features, what do higher end machines have that make it easier to perfect the latte?

7. Preground vs ESE: I assume ESE will be superior in taste given that they are individually sealed for freshness?

8. Pressurized vs normal Portafilter: I read online and it seems a lot of people are against using a pressurized portafilter. Is there really a big difference using either for my case? If yes, I may have to buy a separate portafilter since my 2017 Gaggia comes with the pressurized version.

9. Do you guys also use a measuring cup to measure the volume of your shot when training? :o
 
Last edited:

Lazy_Tiger

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2002
Messages
1,010
Reaction score
21
1. i have no experience with santino but no harm trying.

2. you can cheat miss silvia by running the brew pump and pulsing hot water thru the group head and portafilter in order to heat things up. but this may result either in the group head being too hot or insufficiently heated up. so take experience to know when the group head is sufficiently hot.

3. this video explains. see from 3.30 onwards.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhxvDusY3jk
you can hear and see the hissing of steam and bubbles as the water exiting the showerscreen is more than 100 degrees.

4. can last between 1-1.5months depending on the storage conditions and roast. i still keep it in the bag. lock and lock has air space in the container.

5. yes brewing stage. for your machine it doesn't have preinfusion. so 25-30secs is usually ok and is a very useful guide. with preinfusion it can take much longer. e.g. 20secs preinfusion + 30 secs brew for slayer. nespresso is too fast and uses only 7-9g of coffee. there are 3rd partly capsules e.g. colonna which forces the nespresso machine to brew at a slower flow rate as they light roast their coffee beans.

6. upgrading the skills of the barista is much more important than upgrading the machines. i highly recommend going for a latte making class. but yes generally the more powerful the steam the easier it is to create microfoam, since you need to get the milk to be swirling. if the steam is weak, you cannot mix it up will and you'll get large bubbles instead of a fine foam.

7. all else being equal preground is inferior to whole bean. forget about some people telling you that you can hermetically seal preground and they will taste as good as freshly roasted, freshly ground whole bean.

only use preground as a trade off for convenience (i do drink nespreso). between ese and preground cans and all else being equal (coffee quality, extraction, freshness) yes eses may taste better since you only open it up when you are about to brew it.

8. unpressurised portafilters are superior because it gives the barista direct feedback whether the grind is too fine or coarse via flow rate. pressurised portafilters control this flowrate for you even if you grind to coarse. generally you get a better extraction, fuller bodied and sweeter espressos using unpressurised.

9 a shotglass with volume markers is one way to measure but highly inconsisent since crema contributes to volume and creme is highly variable. the best way to place a weighing scale on your drip tray and place your espresso cup on your weighing scale. espresso is not pure water. 30g of espresso will not equate to 30ml via volume. 30g of espresso can be between 40-60ml via volume!
 
Important Forum Advisory Note
This forum is moderated by volunteer moderators who will react only to members' feedback on posts. Moderators are not employees or representatives of HWZ Forums. Forum members and moderators are responsible for their own posts. Please refer to our Community Guidelines and Standards and Terms and Conditions for more information.
Top