(GPGT)Espresso machine hoot

[testerjp]

Ok, normally when you dose into your PF, do you just level off the grounds? Or do you grind by weight?

Ya I saw zero bar and I was shocked. I remembered tamping quite hard, although I'm not sure if it was 30 lbs. I'll try going much finer first, if not then adding more grounds

Since you just got the machine, start that time use weight to get the first point right will be much easier.
You may also want to do single dosing if you have a weighing scale and don't drink a lot. Go google tat.


I don't level off, I use super fine grind setting and normally use medium-dark roast.
Cuz my singles are abt 7g, doubles 15g, it won't reach that height to level off too.

Since my grind setting is very fine, I do very light tamp. I use my index finger and middle to push down imagine that, no body weight, i think less than 5KG. No funny methods, no problem with channelling.
If heavy tamp, it gets stuck

But i tried before, if you intend to use coarser grind, and use mad crazy of coffee like 20g, it's better to tamp harder.

Also, every few days sure have to tune the fineness or the dose a little cause the coffee will everyday deteriorate a little from oxidisation.
When you tune the fineness, which is the size of the particles, the weight will be affected so no point chasing the moving target, your life will be very difficult.



P.S:
1.After you tune the grind setting, you must grind n dump a little to get rid of those powder from the previous setting.

2. If you intend to throw all your beans into the hopper, dump a few grams of coffee before you first cup in the morning. That is to get rid of stale coffee stuck since your last cup.

3. If your coffee is crap and stale, no matter how you try also won't have thick crema. No need to be a cremahead though.

by the way, BZ13 is on a 3 way valve? so backflush is simply put blind filter and run water for how long? How many cycles, say for a daily clear water backflush?

BZ13 has 3 way, flush with blind filter until it pressurise, it should reach around 12 bars then stop, go 5 cycles. Less than 1 min job.

 

[testerjp]

Hi all kopi limker here....

Got a small invitation here. Anyone wanna try Illy bean? I bought a fully auto machine and the owner gave me 6KG ( ) of Illy Espresso dark roast. I know for sure I cannot finish this so open to anyone who wanna try it.

It's FOC. Just need to pick up from my place. I'll put it in a zip bag for ya.

PM me...

Good day.

Paging for relacker.

Your Illy is which one?
I tried this Ethiopian Illy in Australia, not bad at all, best Ethiopian I've tried so far.
Damn cheap there, can't find in SG nor at those price.

 

[Corsabrin]

Thanks Bro Tiger and tester, been trying to digest your advice for past 20 mins haha. After the poor extraction yesterday, I dare not even touch the bottomless PF.

I really hope that its not a broken pressure gauge. Will run a clear water backflush later to check that the pressure gauge is working. Also noted the point on dosing by weight. I have a 0.1g scale, but havent been using it. I will try it again tonight. I was watching a couple of videos from wholelattelove and seems like tamping shld be among the last of consideration? Yesterday I actually scalded myself a couple of times from the steam wand and touching the grouphead. Operating this type of machines really need another level of technique haha.

Also, I'm using a double basket, have two questions:

1) Is it ok to extract without the coffee being flush at the surface (i.e. put coffee less than the max capacity of the basket) -> will this cause less pressure?

2) Yesterday when I extracted the shot, some drops of coffee bounced off the surface of the cup and in the end, the surface of the machine had small drops of coffee everywhere and I had to wipe them off. Just wondering, does this kind of thing happen to you guys? I feel that this only occurs because I'm a newbie haha.

Here is my modest set up haha. Still have much to learn.

 

[testerjp]

Thanks Bro Tiger and tester, been trying to digest your advice for past 20 mins haha. After the poor extraction yesterday, I dare not even touch the bottomless PF.

I really hope that its not a broken pressure gauge. Will run a clear water backflush later to check that the pressure gauge is working. Also noted the point on dosing by weight. I have a 0.1g scale, but havent been using it. I will try it again tonight. I was watching a couple of videos from wholelattelove and seems like tamping shld be among the last of consideration? Yesterday I actually scalded myself a couple of times from the steam wand and touching the grouphead. Operating this type of machines really need another level of technique haha.

Also, I'm using a double basket, have two questions:

1) Is it ok to extract without the coffee being flush at the surface (i.e. put coffee less than the max capacity of the basket) -> will this cause less pressure?

2) Yesterday when I extracted the shot, some drops of coffee bounced off the surface of the cup and in the end, the surface of the machine had small drops of coffee everywhere and I had to wipe them off. Just wondering, does this kind of thing happen to you guys? I feel that this only occurs because I'm a newbie haha.

Here is my modest set up haha. Still have much to learn.

Pressure will eventually build up if there's enough resistance coming from the coffee.
Whether you fill the basket or not gives it more headroom. To me it doesn't affect me much.
As mentioned, I only use 7g/15g of powder. The tamper sinks into the basket with a lot of gap.

Tamping wise, you can from tis guy. One of the previous champions. He has a few videos which talks a lot of sense.

2. You are talking about splatters? Since you mentioned zero bar, no crema, it must be coming out damn fast. From these clues, it's more likely to be your grind setting issues. If your coffee is not fresh, it adds to the issue.


I have a feeling your problem is instantly solved once you turn to finer setting aggressively, your grinder is the hand grinder in the pic?
Maybe it can't go fine enough, go towards the maximum fineness and try it. Try with the blind filter see it can reach 12 bars.

Don't worry bro, not as tough as you think if you keep it simple and after you get it right.
Even my 70yo pantry auntie with osteoporosis can do it right.

 

[Corsabrin]

Yeah I would try making it finer this evening. By the way, what happens if it is too fine and machine backflushes with coffee in PF? will it cause problems due to the coffee?

The porlex i was using for the press coffee haha. My grinder is the one beside the machine , cant see properly

 

[testerjp]

Eh you backflush with your blind filter, not coffee.

If too fine, then you will see the coffee can't come out or dripping slow. IIRC don't allow the pump to work more than 2 minutes.

When you stop your machine after extraction, the water will escape from the spigot through the 3 way. Whether super fine or not, the coffee will still travel inside. That's why you need to do backflushing to clear it.

 

[Corsabrin]

I see, when you say backflush, do you just do it with water w/o detergent?

 

[testerjp]

Everyday i do with water after the last cup of the day.
5 times, takes less than a min.

Every two weeks i do with grouphead detergent.
5 times with detergent.
5 times with water
About 2 mins.

If I've nothing to do, i recycle the used grouphead detergent water to soak my baskets.

Or if the tray got a lot of stains at corners, i will add more water till it fills up and leave it there to clear it.

 

[Corsabrin]

got it, thanks bro. that was clear and concise!

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

I was watching a couple of videos from wholelattelove and seems like tamping shld be among the last of consideration?

Also, I'm using a double basket, have two questions:

1) Is it ok to extract without the coffee being flush at the surface (i.e. put coffee less than the max capacity of the basket) -> will this cause less pressure?

2) Yesterday when I extracted the shot, some drops of coffee bounced off the surface of the cup and in the end, the surface of the machine had small drops of coffee everywhere and I had to wipe them off. Just wondering, does this kind of thing happen to you guys? I feel that this only occurs because I'm a newbie haha.

Here is my modest set up haha. Still have much to learn.

Very nice and cosy set up What grinder are you using? Looks like ceado e75s.

For your first question, I don't think there is a general consensus. I use VST baskets and put the recommended amount for the basket type. When I change a blend, after locking in the portafilter i'll unlock the portafilter again and check to make sure that the shower screen and screw does not impact on the dry dose so as not to disturb the puck and cause channeling.

However when you brew the grounds will expand. Sometimes the puck will expand so much and will touch the shower screen when it did not touch the shower screen initially when you first locked in with the dry puck.

While I try to avoid letting the dry puck touch the shower screen when its dry, i don't think it matters so much if it touches the shower screen after that due to expansion when brewing.

That being said i've had tasty espressos even when the dry puck contacted the shower screen. My habit to make sure the dry puck does not touch the shower screen is more out of fear of the possibility that the espresso won't taste nice rather than from actual experience. So I guess just experiment and trust your tastebuds.

And yes, there is more resistance if your coffee puck is unable to expand fully due to touching the shower screen when you lock it in before brewing or if the puck is unable to expand fully during the and contact the shower screen when water is added. This will slow your flowrate and likely to affect the taste.

For your 2nd Question, Hmmm usually my espresso will not bounce off the surface when it drops into the cup. Perhaps your resistance is not enough and the flow rate of the espresso is too fast? Maybe try a 15gram dose, yielding 30grams of liquid espresso in 30 secs. This is a standard "normale" recipe.

I do get spritzing once in a while when using VST baskets. This appears as tiny squirts thru one or 2 individual holes in the filter basket.

One trick is to put your cup on a higher platform. Can put your cup on a weighing scale so that its higher.

Lastly I agree that tamping should be the last thing you adjust. Just be as consistent with your tamp as possible, tamp with just enough pressure until the grounds can't be compressed anymore. That being said tamping is a very useful way to adjust your flow rate or to help with uneven distribution of the coffee grounds. I feel nutation helps to even out the distribution and generally can compress the grounds alot more than a gorilla tamp. To say that tamping does not make a difference is not true but for the sake of ease of brewing, its easier to keep tamping consistent and just adjust the other parameters first.

Gotten your fresh beans yet?

Toby's estate had a wide variety of single origin espresso if you are keen to explore

Buy highlander if you want something easy to brew and still pretty decent.

Nylon 4 chairs is hard to brew. Have to tame the unpleasant sourness to get a more balanced acidity. But the aroma out of the recent 4 chairs is incredible. Really must try to believe.

 

[Corsabrin]

Very nice and cosy set up What grinder are you using? Looks like ceado e75s.

For your first question, I don't think there is a general consensus. I use VST baskets and put the recommended amount for the basket type. When I change a blend, after locking in the portafilter i'll unlock the portafilter again and check to make sure that the shower screen and screw does not impact on the dry dose so as not to disturb the puck and cause channeling.

However when you brew the grounds will expand. Sometimes the puck will expand so much and will touch the shower screen when it did not touch the shower screen initially when you first locked in with the dry puck.

While I try to avoid letting the dry puck touch the shower screen when its dry, i don't think it matters so much if it touches the shower screen after that due to expansion when brewing.

That being said i've had tasty espressos even when the dry puck contacted the shower screen. My habit to make sure the dry puck does not touch the shower screen is more out of fear of the possibility that the espresso won't taste nice rather than from actual experience. So I guess just experiment and trust your tastebuds.

And yes, there is more resistance if your coffee puck is unable to expand fully due to touching the shower screen when you lock it in before brewing or if the puck is unable to expand fully during the and contact the shower screen when water is added. This will slow your flowrate and likely to affect the taste.

For your 2nd Question, Hmmm usually my espresso will not bounce off the surface when it drops into the cup. Perhaps your resistance is not enough and the flow rate of the espresso is too fast? Maybe try a 15gram dose, yielding 30grams of liquid espresso in 30 secs. This is a standard "normale" recipe.

I do get spritzing once in a while when using VST baskets. This appears as tiny squirts thru one or 2 individual holes in the filter basket.

One trick is to put your cup on a higher platform. Can put your cup on a weighing scale so that its higher.

Lastly I agree that tamping should be the last thing you adjust. Just be as consistent with your tamp as possible, tamp with just enough pressure until the grounds can't be compressed anymore. That being said tamping is a very useful way to adjust your flow rate or to help with uneven distribution of the coffee grounds. I feel nutation helps to even out the distribution and generally can compress the grounds alot more than a gorilla tamp. To say that tamping does not make a difference is not true but for the sake of ease of brewing, its easier to keep tamping consistent and just adjust the other parameters first.

Gotten your fresh beans yet?

Toby's estate had a wide variety of single origin espresso if you are keen to explore

Buy highlander if you want something easy to brew and still pretty decent.

Nylon 4 chairs is hard to brew. Have to tame the unpleasant sourness to get a more balanced acidity. But the aroma out of the recent 4 chairs is incredible. Really must try to believe.

Thanks tiger for that comprehensive reply! I should perhaps check to make sure that im giving enough headroom in the PF. Didnt check that yesterday. By the way, i noticed that the baskets tend to have a 'line' around the basket near the top (~ 1 cm from the top). Is that meant to serve as headroom? Are VST baskets good?

I had another espresso making session last evening taking into account what bro testerjp said. Managed to check brew pressure using blind filter at 12 bars.

I extracted a total of 5 to 6 times yesterday in an attempt to dial in the grinder. I didnt realise the ground had to be so fine. On my finest ground attempt ytd, brew pressure was at 8 bars. Finally i could see some crema forming. Tonight I'll go even finer to see if I could reach 2 oz (60 ml) in around 30 secs. Yesterday's extraction was still so fast. I think its coz I'm using to grinding for press, the fineness for espresso machine is too overwhelming to accept haha.

I actually just ordered an espro from highlander also. I would definitely try their beans soon!

 

[chikyblink]

Try not to measure your output by volume, use weight instead. And use 1:2 ratio as a starting point, meaning 14grams grounds yielding 28grams of espresso. Stock double baskets usually holds 14grams.
While VSTs are good, they're harder to get right, especially for newbies. I suggest you stick with the stock baskets for now.

Sent from Samsung SM-N910G using GAGT

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

By the way, i noticed that the baskets tend to have a 'line' around the basket near the top (~ 1 cm from the top). Is that meant to serve as headroom? Are VST baskets good?

As chiky mentioned VST baskets are harder to master. More holes and the holes are also much bigger. Easier to get channeling. But I like to use VST baskets for light roasts because I find the taste is more balanced with VST baskets. Less sourness and more sweetness. For darker roasts can just stick with stock baskets. If I use VST baskets for dark roasts then i usually go with a very short brew time.

You can use the line on the basket as a gauge to make sure that you are not overfilling. Useful but i'm not sure if the line was intentionally created for this purpose!

 

[chikyblink]

Not sure you guys have heard but Matt Perger has joined lynweber as one of the board of directors!

Sent from Samsung SM-N910G using GAGT

 

[testerjp]

Try not to measure your output by volume, use weight instead. And use 1:2 ratio as a starting point, meaning 14grams grounds yielding 28grams of espresso. Stock double baskets usually holds 14grams.
While VSTs are good, they're harder to get right, especially for newbies. I suggest you stick with the stock baskets for now.

Sent from Samsung SM-N910G using GAGT

Your 28g of espresso comes out in how long?

Getting 28g in 15 secs and 30 secs have a huge difference in taste.

 

[chikyblink]

Your 28g of espresso comes out in how long?

Getting 28g in 15 secs and 30 secs have a huge difference in taste.

Whoops forgot to put the timing haha. I think anywhere between 25-35 secs is a good range to start.

Anyways what do you guys think about the OCD tool by Sasa Sestic? I used to think just grooming the top won't do much. But now I think it actually creates a much more even density across the puck.

Sent from Samsung SM-N910G using GAGT

 

[testerjp]

I personally go for 20 to 25 seconds only. Less chance of astringents out.

That tool maybe useful for cafés to standardize the distribution but I think it only sweeps the top. You need to calibrate the tool to the height of your coffee bed.

In real home environment use, I think it's not suitable unless you are doing single dosing and finish your coffee fast enough.
Cause after few days your coffee oxidize and you may need to grind finer or have more powder to get the same flowrate. The height of the coffee cake will be different.

Anyway I don't do distribution as I don't have any issues yet.
Still using the stock basket.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

Whoops forgot to put the timing haha. I think anywhere between 25-35 secs is a good range to start.

Anyways what do you guys think about the OCD tool by Sasa Sestic? I used to think just grooming the top won't do much. But now I think it actually creates a much more even density across the puck.

Sent from Samsung SM-N910G using GAGT

I think the tool is great. Kinda redistributes evenly and pretamps a bit. But i think nutation can also achieve the same effect but not as consistently and need slightly more care not too nutate to hard on one side.

After grinding i tap the portafilter down a few times before nutating and adding light pressure to redistribute the grounds before a final tamp with the "default" 30 pounds of force.

I don't think the tool grooms just the surface like what is done in the past using finger grooming. I think there is some extent of redistribution even at the lower part of the puck because the device pretamps the grounds and not just sweeping what is on top.

 

[Corsabrin]

I personally go for 20 to 25 seconds only. Less chance of astringents out.

That tool maybe useful for cafés to standardize the distribution but I think it only sweeps the top. You need to calibrate the tool to the height of your coffee bed.

In real home environment use, I think it's not suitable unless you are doing single dosing and finish your coffee fast enough.
Cause after few days your coffee oxidize and you may need to grind finer or have more powder to get the same flowrate. The height of the coffee cake will be different.

Anyway I don't do distribution as I don't have any issues yet.
Still using the stock basket.

Just curious, assuming im going for 50% brew ratio, how long should i be extracting?

 

[testerjp]

Depends more on the roast level, the weight of dose, etc.

The lesser the powder you use, the sooner you may want to stop .
I think it's safer before those intense bitter notes come out, but it's still up to your preference though. No hard and fix rule.

If not sure, 25 secs is not a bad idea imo