(GPGT)Espresso machine hoot

[tyrtok]

May I ask what is the difference between conventional vs pre-infusion grouphead for Expobar? water doesnt spread out evenly for the pre-infusion?

what justify the price difference between the high end models in both brands may I ask?

got lost after the HX debate in this thread.

Many thanks

 

[qwe7410]

The old E61 grouphead type needs the boiler heat up -> water heat up -> grouphead heat up.

Those newer groupheads, boiler and grouphead heat up at the same time - water heat up.

Those newer grouphead of course heat up faster which is useful.
I can't taste or tell the difference between both system so debate how much also no use.

I think fundamentally same architecture, just the method of heating up is different.
Either system keeps the grouphead heated, i can't taste any clear advantage.

I observed very seldom you see cafes use E61 liao,those big joints all dun use such system.
Saw a hipster cafe at chinatown and highlander using i think.

The guy got mentioned to me, e61 uses a big chunk of metal, thus naturally higher material cost. He never push the expensive models when i say i use in small office or home.

The strega does makes a difference and is very good if u drink in black but exceeds my budget.

Bezzera looks very posh, expobar looks very russian.
You can see the pre infusion explaination from wholelattelove's youtube video.

 

[patryn33]

definately cheaper than saeco range of all in one. perhaps buy this to tong and a manual machine 3 years later when i move into a new flat. If only it has a frothing wand...

well if U can invest in a 2-3K machine and grinder great.

if U like frothing with steam, nespresso just wouldnt cut it. in fact I hate it.

its only usd$310 investment cheap. anyway still has 25 days to go and they has like close to 700 backers.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/236195807/arist-brews-coffee-like-the-best-baristas-

fun reading the comments. alot of ppl backed the projects share the same concerns with cleaning etc. I hate the part they have capsules for syrups and honey. thats sucks and its only available in 2 countries iirc.
https://www.kickstarter.com/project...offee-like-the-best-baristas-anytime/comments

 

[derazor]

any opinions on this coffee machine?
w-ww.kickstarter.com/projects/236195807/arist-brews-coffee-like-the-best-baristas-anytime?ref=recommended

i saw this also. whats your thoughts.

 

[derazor]

definately cheaper than saeco range of all in one. perhaps buy this to tong and a manual machine 3 years later when i move into a new flat. If only it has a frothing wand...

take note you might need to wait till up to a year to do crowdfunding. most dates will be delayed

 

[tyrtok]

take note you might need to wait till up to a year to do crowdfunding. most dates will be delayed

indeed. Just withdraw my backing and currently looking into the prosumer range. Namely the Expobar Leva vs Pulsar. Any opinions?

 

[calbay]

Expobar is pretty popular here in Aussie, a lot of baristas have it as a personal machine as it's affordable.

Infact, one of Singapore's World Barista Championship Sensory Judge is using.
i am a barista in sg: My Coffee Toys

The Expobar Leva does look aesthetically better.
If you are on the budget, the pulser is also fine.

Thermal stability wise, it should be comparable since Heat exchangers must flush anyway, which is not a lot of work.

I'll personally prefer the Leva for the look, lever control and gauges.
But again, if you are new and is looking to spend lesser for cafe quality, either should match the standard.

 

[tyrtok]

question. anyone know what is the start up time for such proconsumer machines? meaning from power on to achieving the optimum pressure/temperature for brewing.

 

[calbay]

If you are referring to heat exchangers, should be around 10-12 mins for E61.
I think 30% faster if the brew head is heated by its own heating element.
It depends on the resting temperature.

If you switch on in the early noon, when you had already switched on before in the morning.
The time to heat up shortens since the boiler and the water inside should be still warm.

I've a timer plug to switch on automatically at 8am-8.30am and heat up again at 1pm-2pm for my family at home.
Daily.

 

[chikyblink]

If you are referring to heat exchangers, should be around 10-12 mins for E61.

I hope this is a typo from you. try pulling a shot 12mins from a cold start is gonna yield you a very underextracted and acidic shot.

for E61 HXs, at least 40 mins due to the amount of metal it needs to heat up. imo, a timer is a must for home baristas

 

[calbay]

Expobar's boilers are insulated to heat up much faster.
10-12 mins your steam boiler for the hx feature should be ready.
Or it could be higher by a few mins, as different machines may heat up differently.
You can tell from the gauge or the heat up light indicator.

Yes the grouphead may not be totally stabilized yet(Measured on its external surface) but it won't mean it's not usable and guarantees an under extracted shot.
At least not from my taste tests with neutral nutty blends from BZ, CR, MX, etc.

After you see your steam boiler's gauge start rising and stabilise.
I believe most people do a flush before their first cup, at least i do to get rid of water that's not fresh stuck from yesterday.
As it flush, the internal surface warms up real quickly.

It's the temperature inside the grouphead that counts, not the temperature measured externally on the surface of the grouphead. So any speculations made up from temperature measured on the external surface isn't that depicting.
The external surface of the grouphead, which is steel, heats up last and much slower.

The ambience temperature in Singapore is about 28 degrees.
If compare to a cold nation which is colder by 10-20 degrees, those will take longer.
At least 10-20 mins more due to the lower resting temp and the cold ambience temp resisting the heat up.
Tropical weather like SG, don't need the same length of time.

As a barista, if we are making a lot of cups, it's important that the temperature to be stabilised as water rotation and depletion is quick.
As it depletes, fresh cold water pumps into the boiler and bring down the temp further, so we must start with the right temperature.
For home, if making just 1-2 cups, you can do a lot of things quicker.

Anyway for those who are concern about start up time, go for those groupheads with separate electrical heating on the grouphead.

 

[qwe7410]

I'm using the Bezzera BZ10 which has a grouphead that heats up on its own, take only 10 mins.

Those on double boiler really have to wait like crazy.

 

[dibromoethene]

I hope this is a typo from you. try pulling a shot 12mins from a cold start is gonna yield you a very underextracted and acidic shot.

for E61 HXs, at least 40 mins due to the amount of metal it needs to heat up. imo, a timer is a must for home baristas

Just curious... have you personally experienced getting an under-extracted and acidic shot due to a shorter warmup?

 

[dibromoethene]

its only usd$310 investment cheap. anyway still has 25 days to go and they has like close to 700 backers.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/236195807/arist-brews-coffee-like-the-best-baristas-

The machine is going to have adjustable pressure, temperature, volume control plus built-in burr grinder and adjustment mechanism, self cleaner and even nfc.

This is really a lot of features for $299. As someone mentioned in the comments section, Scanomat has a similar concept for $19,000.

I urge interested guys to read through the comments section before putting in their hard-earned money.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

I think fundamentally same architecture, just the method of heating up is different.
Either system keeps the grouphead heated, i can't taste any clear advantage.

Architecture is very different. E61 group heads can perform line preinfusion and gradual raising of the pressure to full 9 bar because of the springs inside. Other e61 looking heads may not have but they can employ some electronic preinfusion to squirt some water on the puck, waiting for a few sec for the puck to swell and then performing the full extraction. I agree a well tuned electronically heated group head is the way to go instead of passively heating up the group head from the brew boiler. More efficient that way.

I observed very seldom you see cafes use E61 liao,those big joints all dun use such system.
Saw a hipster cafe at chinatown and highlander using i think.

Because of maintenance and faster wear and tear esp in a cafe setting. The spring system inside needs regular backflushing to ensure it performs reliably.

The guy got mentioned to me, e61 uses a big chunk of metal, thus naturally higher material cost. He never push the expensive models when i say i use in small office or home.

True. But Saturated group heads with a gear pump and needle valve is more expensive simply because they are harder to make and not ubiquitous. Needs connection to water line to run properly.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

Just curious... have you personally experienced getting an under-extracted and acidic shot due to a shorter warmup?

For me yes. I use a PIDed machine and u can really see the pid will not stablise until after 30 mins at least.

Never underestable how fast things cool down. If you make pour over coffee with a thermometer in the kettle u will realise that water temp will almost immediately start the drop the moment u lift the kettle from the fire.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

I'm using the Bezzera BZ10 which has a grouphead that heats up on its own, take only 10 mins.

Those on double boiler really have to wait like crazy.

Yup. The e61's advantage is the preinfusion and gradual ramp up of the pressure and the temp stability due to the giant piece of metal. But waiting time is not the best esp for a home setting where u may want a quick drink or have a sudden guest.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

Expobar's boilers are insulated to heat up much faster.
10-12 mins your steam boiler for the hx feature should be ready.
Or it could be higher by a few mins, as different machines may heat up differently.
You can tell from the gauge or the heat up light indicator.

Almost all boilers nowadays are insulated. But not to save electricity or faster heat up. The insulation is the protect the parts in the machine that are heat sensitive from direct contact to the boiler metal esp when u have a clumsy technician who reassembled your machine after a repair. How fast your e61 group head heats up depends on the thermosyphon but there is always an upper limit to how big u want the thermosyphon to be (esp for HX) to prevent a grouphead that is too hot.

Yes the grouphead may not be totally stabilized yet(Measured on its external surface) but it won't mean it's not usable and guarantees an under extracted shot.
At least not from my taste tests with neutral nutty blends from BZ, CR, MX, etc.

THe issue is not whether the group head temp is stablised or not. The issue is that the group head temp is still cold. So the hot water coming out from the boiler during extraction will lose heat too much heat as it passes the group head. This has already been tested with a SCACE II many times.

After you see your steam boiler's gauge start rising and stabilise.
I believe most people do a flush before their first cup, at least i do to get rid of water that's not fresh stuck from yesterday.
As it flush, the internal surface warms up real quickly.

Yes flushing helps to heat up the grouphead but it may not stabilise it. Machines like the cremina will have an overheated group head if you keep on flushing. This is also another reason why I don't like HX machines. You are forced to flush to clear the HX from super heated if the machine is idle too long but this will also cause your group head to heat up more. So its difficult to get consistency between shots.

It's the temperature inside the grouphead that counts, not the temperature measured externally on the surface of the grouphead. So any speculations made up from temperature measured on the external surface isn't that depicting.
The external surface of the grouphead, which is steel, heats up last and much slower.

People don't measure the external temperature of the group head. They use a SCACE II to measure the temp of the WATER that exits the shower screen. Thats how home baristas and machine engineers why the coffee is acidic when the machine Because cold water hits the puck. And this happens regularly when u have a machine that has not heated up properly.

The ambience temperature in Singapore is about 28 degrees.
If compare to a cold nation which is colder by 10-20 degrees, those will take longer.
At least 10-20 mins more due to the lower resting temp and the cold ambience temp resisting the heat up.
Tropical weather like SG, don't need the same length of time.

DIfficult to speculate on this because I'm sure people in cold countries also live in heated houses and they have the added advantage of having no drafts in their houses.

Anyway for those who are concern about start up time, go for those groupheads with separate electrical heating on the grouphead.

Agreed, I think a well implemented electronically heated group head should be the way to go for home use.

 

[IntelFlash]

I'm using the Bezzera BZ10 which has a grouphead that heats up on its own, take only 10 mins.

Those on double boiler really have to wait like crazy.

My home machine is the Brewtus Double boiler which is attached with the E61 grouphead.

From cold to hot enough, abt 20mins, still not so bad.
Like what the other guy said, the boiler is shielded to heat up faster.
I also flush the grouphead to warm up faster and to release whatever may be trapped from my last flush.
Never felt underextracted nor sour.
I'm using very acidic sour blends from Columbia, so if it's sour, i can taste it easily.

But you are right, it's a little too much wait and i do regret not considering the Bezzera BZ10, BZ13 or Strega.
Honestly those preinfusion thing how much it helps, i can't tell nor feel much difference. Nor do i utilise the preinfusion method on my current E61. The startup time is something i've to face everyday.

I did not read enough nor went to the showroom
Online is not providing much information on BZ10/BZ13, mostly avail to those E61.
Until i realised later that Bezzera's BZ07/09/10 are pretty popular among those demanding Germans with google translate.

Strega is even better.
I can't taste the diff between BZ13 and E61 grouphead but i can feel the real difference between Strega and them.
Best thing is no need backflush, no need wait for the grouphead to warm up either.

This Bezzera really know their stuff.
You had made a very intelligent purchase, BZ10 is now out of stock.

I bought the BZ13 which is the latest model for my office 2 weeks ago with PIC claim.
Heat time is only 8 mins, its blazing fast.
Imagine it's 1/3 the startup time of my Brewtus i use at home.
Their youtube video says it's with stronger thermal accuracy.
If i could choose, i would had bought the BZ13 instead of the Brewtus double boiler for my home.
Actually PID not really important to me.

Think about it, i should sell my Brewtus DB and upgrade to a Strega or another BZ13. DB is pretty over rated and has their share of cons not properly explained

 

[chikyblink]

Just curious... have you personally experienced getting an under-extracted and acidic shot due to a shorter warmup?

I've never experience an underextracted shot due to a shorter warm up coz of the Eric's thermometer. I feel for E61 HXs, this thermometer is a must. you'll always know the temperature of the water passing through the thermosyphon.


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