Is it really over for Intel®?

Intel is ...

  • dead man walking, soon to be buried

    Votes: 58 50.9%
  • will bounce back, buyed Intc at $10 sure huat!

    Votes: 56 49.1%

  • Total voters
    114

SkyShroud

Arch-Supremacy Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2005
Messages
21,056
Reaction score
1,513
I wonder if intel is considering something similar (ie large amount of cache) to amd's vcache. That seems to be the logical direction to head towards to rather than trying to win clock wars which has increasing diminishing returns - more power used/heat for less gains, at least in the context of gaming. They don't have to do it for their entire line-up but it could be their "gaming processor" line, just like how X3D is known for gaming.

Besides the power issues, one reason intel is losing to amd is because it is rapidly losing mindshare when it comes to the gaming segment. Basically nearly everyone on the net now is .... "if you want to game, get a x3d cpu". That's free marketing in and of itself. It's not the largest segment but gaming is one of the more prominent ones that gets headlines. Similar to how nvidia maintains mindshare through its halo product (the titans/xx90s) even if they are expensive as hell.

I know intel's chip has higher potential than x3d but it requires a hefty amount of tuning and binning (some even boast about buying and returning dozens of CPUs) along with more expensive ram while x3d is basically plug and play with ddr5 6000. Most people go for what the most convenient is. Being able to use air cooler with x3d is a bonus as well

PS: Intel did try it in the past with its short-lived broadwell processors.

:(
They have to figure out how to do it without infringing the existing patent that amd holds.
 

uselessbum

High Supremacy Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2009
Messages
27,547
Reaction score
9,373
They have to figure out how to do it without infringing the existing patent that amd holds.

Actually, they have done something similar before. Like I mentioned, broadwell and before that, crystalwell. Broadwell still holds up quite well till today for gaming, even when compared to its more modern peers, thanks to its large 128 mb L4 cache. Even if their original intention was to feed the igpu. Why they never attempted to refine it after that is a mystery.

:(
 
Last edited:

kimsix

Arch-Supremacy Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
20,370
Reaction score
10,215
https://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=https://www.coolaler.com/forums/threads/intel-core-ultra-9-285k-vs-14900k-gigabyte-z890-aorus-master-ckd.386911/&d=489984171565&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=_CyeFlSsuGb1RnEIYn0ECpEG0OEjO03e

Cached chinese review of Ultra 285K, much more indicative of performance over the other leaked one. Overall, disappointing game perf as expected, losing slightly to stock 14900KS. They only tested at 4K though, i guess to emulate real world gaming.

Why some apps also lose to 14900KS? This coolaler got do proper review job boh

100ns aida64, so the suspicion Intel lost their memory controller and sustained clocks lead... is true. A nightmare for Pat! :o
 

SkyShroud

Arch-Supremacy Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2005
Messages
21,056
Reaction score
1,513
Actually, they have done something similar before. Like I mentioned, broadwell and before that, crystalwell. Broadwell still holds up quite well till today for gaming, even when compared to its more modern peers, thanks to its large 128 mb L4 cache. Even if their original intention was to feed the igpu. Why they never attempted to refine it after that is a mystery.

:(

They plan to add L4 cache but apparently delayed to next generation. Even if it can compete with L3 cache with the help of higher single core performance, we also have to see the price. Adding dram beside the chip is cheaper than stacking ram on top of the chip but intel not exactly great when come to pricing even for its normal cpu.
 

elmariachi

Supremacy Member
Joined
May 30, 2005
Messages
6,342
Reaction score
1,491
https://m.mydrivers.com/newsview/1010078_all.html

Hit and miss.

Doesn't seem to be a great upgrade from my 14900KS. Might skip this and wait for 9800X3D benches. If not much different, will sit this entire generation out as the uplift is virtually meaningless to move platform. Might see if Intel Bartlett comes out and can reuse my Z790 and enjoy 12 P-cores only for gaming. I hope they release it.

At this point, even disabling HT on your 13900k/14900k and you'll still be faster than the 285K for gaming at least. And you cut power and temps too. Arrowlake seems DOA. I would say a good start based on power consumption unfortunately people won't upgrade if there is performance regression. Fact. That too lasting probably just 1 generation. Strategic miscalculation. Heavy price to pay.
 
Last edited:

Koenig168

Arch-Supremacy Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
10,055
Reaction score
1,758
hmmm ..... not looking good. Looks to be teething issues, maybe some driver tweaking might help :unsure:


 
Last edited:

matique

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2017
Messages
797
Reaction score
786
yeah, last week already know, idk how people can keep saying its the killer :ROFLMAO:

As usual, the fortune tellers lied o_O

Haha I already said it would get spanked, just maybe didn't expect stock performance to be this bad.

OC folks still tuning their chips, but can't say much before the 24th haha.

For what it's worth, I think when tuned, the chips wouldn't be bad, could even match a stock 9800x3d. There's some overhead, with possibility of running 9400-9600 in gear 2. Sticking with gear 2 would result in less memory latency than ADL/RPL.

The problem is tile latency. The stupid glue so slow. A tuned 9800x3d will likely spank the tuned 285K.

I have a gene x670e incoming, and more likely than not for this upcoming gen I'll be repping 9800x3d or better chips, unless it's not much faster than my current 13900K then I'll just save money by not upgrading hahaha.

Honestly, Intel is probably cooked for this and next tock gen. They need to solve tile latency issues, clock issues and voltage scaling as well. Hopefully they get to their 18a ASAP and that it functions well.
 

matique

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2017
Messages
797
Reaction score
786
Why some apps also lose to 14900KS? This coolaler got do proper review job boh

100ns aida64, so the suspicion Intel lost their memory controller and sustained clocks lead... is true. A nightmare for Pat! :o

hmmm ..... not looking good. Looks to be teething issues, maybe some driver tweaking might help :unsure:




No driver tweaking would help. Stock XMP is quite poor and some kits may be pushed to Gear 4.

M_2.png

stock 106ns

image.png

tuned 61.4ns Gear 2.

But even at blazing fast d5 + lower latency, it can't make up for slow tile latency.

Here's sugi0lover who is a great ocer and has access to better binned gear and cooling.



Despite it, he can't even beat a stock x3d chip in older ram sensitive benches like SOOTR:

285K P58 E54 R43 w/ 9000c38 G2 tuned
5-2._SOTTR390.png


14900KS P63 E49 R53 w/ 9000c37 G2 tuned
5-1-sottr-jpg.2678127


5800x3d is 360+ tuned
7800x3d is 430+ tuned
9800x3d maybe 470+ tuned?
 

Koenig168

Arch-Supremacy Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
10,055
Reaction score
1,758
No driver tweaking would help.

According to Steve,

"We notified Intel about the poor gaming performance, and while they've offered a few solutions, none have worked to a degree that we find satisfactory.

As it stands, gaming performance is inconsistent, to say the least. Overall, this is very disappointing for a next-generation flagship product. If Intel can't make significant improvements, Arrow Lake could end up being a poor choice for gaming."
 

matique

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2017
Messages
797
Reaction score
786
According to Steve,

"We notified Intel about the poor gaming performance, and while they've offered a few solutions, none have worked to a degree that we find satisfactory.

As it stands, gaming performance is inconsistent, to say the least. Overall, this is very disappointing for a next-generation flagship product. If Intel can't make significant improvements, Arrow Lake could end up being a poor choice for gaming."

No tweaking would allow to fix the hardware issue that is the tile latency, so it is what it is. Let intel take the L in gaming. Slower in lows, average, highs, matches or sometimes more efficient than amd in power. But what's the point in efficiency on a desktop lol. I gave up a few days ago after friends leaked the gaming perf w/ an OC. 10,000mhz ram also useless since it needs G4, can't run in G2. Going sub 60ns in aida is difficult too. It's a fun chip to play around with and bench, plus productivity stuff. But for gaming, it's indeed dead.

I'm jumping ship hehe. Maybe will go back to intel after they sorted things out, but looking forward to play with the newer x3d stuff.

cika3q65w6fz.png
 
Last edited:

elmariachi

Supremacy Member
Joined
May 30, 2005
Messages
6,342
Reaction score
1,491


Really Intel ..what thinking???...

Intel can spin whatever they want about efficiency but no one will pay for regression. I just made my '285K' by disabling HT and going 6Ghz all core. Low power consumption and temps while being actually competent in gaming. 9800X3D is probably the best option for many Intel users if gaming is priority unfortunately. Let's see if Intel can fix all these stuff in the next gen. Till then, nope.
 

xiaofan

High Supremacy Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2018
Messages
36,182
Reaction score
12,220
How many users really care about gaming other than the few gaming enthusiasts and few review sites?

Desktop does not even matter much in the personal computer market, let alone gaming PC.

Intel has problems, but not because of gaming performance at all.

PS: I am OS neutral and Intel/AMD/Apple neutral. I am using Mac Mini M1, Ryzen 5 5600G desktop (dual boot Windows/Linux) and Acer Swift 3 laptop with Intel Core i5-1135G7 CPU (dual boot Windows and Linux). I also bought two Intel Core Ultra 5 125H based Acer Swift 14 Go OLED laptops this year for my wife and daughter.

Most likely I will upgrade my laptop next year, and maybe Mac Mini as well probably
 
Last edited:

elmariachi

Supremacy Member
Joined
May 30, 2005
Messages
6,342
Reaction score
1,491
How many users really care about gaming other than the few gaming enthusiasts and few review sites?

Desktop does not even matter much in the personal computer market, let alone gaming PC.

Intel has problems, but not because of gaming performance at all.
That's true. But regression in gaming for a next generation is bad. I do agree it is a step in the right direction but people who use it for gaming will be sorely disappointed. I mean even in productivity applications, it's not all that great either. Of course 285k will still sell bucket loads. Especially through system integrators. Just that don't hold out for Z890 being more than a 1 generation socket.
 
Last edited:

Outramkia

Master Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2018
Messages
4,650
Reaction score
94
Somehow I'm glad that I'm gaming in 4k. My 13600k is around 3 frames lower than 7800x3d in averages and minimum frames.
 

ondooy

Arch-Supremacy Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2012
Messages
11,026
Reaction score
1,227
ah, was planning on upgrading to this. 😭
still on a 10th gen..
 
Important Forum Advisory Note
This forum is moderated by volunteer moderators who will react only to members' feedback on posts. Moderators are not employees or representatives of HWZ Forums. Forum members and moderators are responsible for their own posts. Please refer to our Community Guidelines and Standards and Terms and Conditions for more information.
Top