Is it really over for Intel®?

[curiosity_20]

The layoffs are coming for Intel, that will drive up profits again by reducing employee overheads.

Meanwhile employees will be cursing and swearing...

It's time for Nvidia to shine.

 

[Phen8210]

The layoffs are coming for Intel, that will drive up profits again by reducing employee overheads.

Lol, they need to save money for lawsuits. You have no idea how many legislations they breached. The foundry issue is no longer the main threat to their business, which should give you an idea of how bad it is.

Also, they have hurt so many businesses, and so all these OEMs are going to sue them.

This situation has already escalated to an organizational-level problem. Whether they make or break depends on how well they do in court now.

The damage has already been done, and it's not like they are stopping the damage. They are continuing to AMPLIFY the damage with their current actions.

Intel basically pulled a bad prank on their investors, so they are all coping now ..

 

[chong]

https://www.pugetsystems.com/blog/2...-perspective-on-intel-cpu-instability-issues/

Like I said...issue is overblown. From Puget Systems own data. You're more likely to have a Ryzen 5000/7000 chip fail versus 12/13/14th. Granted this is just a single source, but yeah it's not out of industry norm.

From the article, Puget claims to ship their machines with their own custom conservative BIOS settings.
So Puget's data could be overly favourable, as most users will simply run the default BIOS settings which have more aggressive power limits and boost behaviours.

Since that time, our stance at Puget Systems has been to mistrust the default settings on any motherboard. Instead, we commit internally to test and apply BIOS settings — especially power settings — according to our own best practices, with an emphasis on following Intel and AMD guidelines. With Intel Core CPUs in particular, we pay close attention to voltage levels and time durations at which those levels are sustained. This has been especially challenging when those guidelines are difficult to find and when motherboard makers brand features with their own unique naming.

Nevertheless, we kept that approach with confidence due to the high amount of real-world testing we do here. We’ve even developed our own suite of PugetBench Benchmarks, whose goal is to test real-world scenarios, guided by years of experience and learning through our customers and partners. Our approach has always led us to be conservative with our power settings, especially when we have shown that the real-world performance impact to be a small 1-2% range

So, with that understanding of WHY we may be seeing things differently than others in the industry — what ARE we seeing here at Puget Systems?

We believe that our commitment to internally developed power settings is why we have been much less impacted than others by these Intel stability issues. This is shaping our approach over the coming months.

Source: https://www.pugetsystems.com/blog/2...-perspective-on-intel-cpu-instability-issues/

 

[Phen8210]

From the article, Puget claims to ship their machines with their own custom conservative BIOS settings.
So Puget's data could be overly favourable, as most users will simply run the default BIOS settings which have more aggressive power limits and boost behaviours.

Source: https://www.pugetsystems.com/blog/2...-perspective-on-intel-cpu-instability-issues/

Yeah, the concerns have always been with running at stock, but almost everyone knows that already, and it's much more than just technical problems that caused their downfall. Their way of handling the matter is questionable, and they are going to face multiple, long legal battles ahead of them. The potential damage is several billions of dollars in fines and further damage to their reputation.

Had Intel promptly acknowledged and addressed these issues, stakeholders wouldn't have lost that much confidence, and the situation might not have escalated to the current level.

Intel hiding the disclosure of known product defects from their stakeholders for an extended period has resulted in severe trust issues and many legal liabilities. It's obvious that the EU and other countries will not overlook these matters.

Most importantly, investors did not exit merely due to manufacturing issues but also due to intel breaching several legislations worldwide stemming from the result of their actions. Any mature investors and businessmen would have left after hearing what they did.

What Intel did in an attempt to cover things up has put them at high risk of severe reputational and financial damage. Hence, the gravity of the current situation is clear to those familiar with fair business laws.

I definitely won't be coping or even trying to defend them right now. Intel always fxxk up, but this time, they have fxxked up big time. It's just embarrassing how a listed company for a couple of decades, handles such a situation.

---

Spoiler

Lastly, my opinion on this situation.

The standards Intel has shown are outright horrifying, and this isn't referring to a foundry issue or a product issue. Intel has SEVERE issues when it comes to its service management and ethics. Are they actually that arrogant and think they are above the law?

At this point, those who step in to defend them are probably people who yield the kind of same characteristics.

As the saying goes:
物以类聚, 人以群分
Birds of a feather ROT together

 

[matique]

From the article, Puget claims to ship their machines with their own custom conservative BIOS settings.
So Puget's data could be overly favourable, as most users will simply run the default BIOS settings which have more aggressive power limits and boost behaviours.







Source: https://www.pugetsystems.com/blog/2...-perspective-on-intel-cpu-instability-issues/

Yeah running custom settings definitely saved those chips. I think the actual issue is actually running voltages on auto, because there's plenty of OCers who don't see any or much degradation even when running out chips highly overclocked running set voltages.

My personal setup is highly tuned, with unlimited power limits. Have pushed the chip to 450w on multiple occasions without issue. So it could be auto voltages spiking up too high during idle, or simply down to bad luck in receiving a chip with the oxidation issue.

I definitely won't be coping or even trying to defend them right now. Intel always fxxk up, but this time, they have fxxked up big time. It's just embarrassing how a listed company for a couple of decades, handles such a situation.

---

Lastly, my opinion on this situation.

The standards Intel has shown are outright horrifying, and this isn't referring to a foundry issue or a product issue. Intel has SEVERE issues when it comes to its service management and ethics. Are they actually that arrogant and think they are above the law?

At this point, those who step in to defend them are probably people who yield the kind of same characteristics.

As the saying goes:
物以类聚, 人以群分
Birds of a feather ROT together

Do you really have to pull in personal bias in lumping people's characteristics by simply having a civil discussion, and implying I'd rot with them?

FYI I'm not biased to any company, because being a fanboy does absolutely nothing. When I had the 5900x, I held the #1 spot for the fastest 5900x in SG. I used the 5800x3d for quite awhile too. Heck, I have more money in AMD shares than INTL

I'm just a tech enthusiast who enjoys pushing my chips. You've many valid points, don't lower yourself by putting across such statements about people's character based on a tech discussion.

 

[keith]

Who knows, the next best cutting edge chip might be out from Chinese foundry very soon.

the chins are coming into the CPU game. they are about 5~yr (or 2 cycle) back, if the current big boys I & T dun lose speed + steam, and widen the gap its OK; for T, they are still sprinting. for i its another step back today.

Dont forget we need HBM too, while M, S, SK are running fast . YMTC is also building more layers.

at end of day , logic + memory (NAND + Flash) are still the key pillars to every country's economy.
just look at the rates new Fabs are sprouting up ... some even claimed India is next. , possible but another +10~20Y?

would SG be better if T build its own Fab here in SG ? Of course.

Si is the new black.

 

[TanKianW]

the chins are coming into the CPU game. they are about 5~yr (or 2 cycle) back, if the current big boys I & T dun lose speed + steam, and widen the gap its OK; for T, they are still sprinting. for i its another step back today.

Dont forget we need HBM too, while M, S, SK are running fast . YMTC is also building more layers.

at end of day , logic + memory (NAND + Flash) are still the key pillars to every country's economy.
just look at the rates new Fabs are sprouting up ... some even claimed India is next. , possible but another +10~20Y?

would SG be better if T build its own Fab here in SG ? Of course.

Si is the new black.

India will never hit the yield.

If the Chinese SMIC do catch up and from the way they operate. Bye bye to all.

Japan seemed more likely to be the up and coming one, partnering with TSMC. Singapore got the chance too but missed it the last round.​

 

[elmariachi]

Yeah running custom settings definitely saved those chips. I think the actual issue is actually running voltages on auto, because there's plenty of OCers who don't see any or much degradation even when running out chips highly overclocked running set voltages.

My personal setup is highly tuned, with unlimited power limits. Have pushed the chip to 450w on multiple occasions without issue. So it could be auto voltages spiking up too high during idle, or simply down to bad luck in receiving a chip with the oxidation issue.



Do you really have to pull in personal bias in lumping people's characteristics by simply having a civil discussion, and implying I'd rot with them?

FYI I'm not biased to any company, because being a fanboy does absolutely nothing. When I had the 5900x, I held the #1 spot for the fastest 5900x in SG. I used the 5800x3d for quite awhile too. Heck, I have more money in AMD shares than INTL

I'm just a tech enthusiast who enjoys pushing my chips. You've many valid points, don't lower yourself by putting across such statements about people's character based on a tech discussion.

Pffft AMD fan boys basking in all the intel hate. Every generation it is the same ****. No one can hate Intel more Krado. HE IS THE BENCHMARK. @ragnarok95 will agree. Fanboys these days weak la.

How Intel handled the current crisis was wrong. AMD is often protected as the meek and lowly underdog, but the fanboys rush to crucify the big, mean evil Intel and NVIDIA when they make mistakes. #FACT

The way I look at it is this: pick your poison. None are perfect or free of fault. Decide what you want and buy it. Then deal with whatever happens. Expect the worst. All of them suck and all of them are dishonest. None are honorable or trustworthy. And none of them care about you, your PC, or how it affects you. It's not their problem.

We should not expect more from Intel or hold them to a higher standard simply because their failure rate is lower or because their faults are more rare. In the end, what we expect from any of them does not matter. We do not matter. They only care about money, market status and shareholders. They all operate on the same business model. Shilling for either camp is pure stupidity and childishness in this time and age. Some people need to seek a new life. It's getting stale with all the bashing.

 

[TanKianW]

Pffft AMD fan boys basking in all the intel hate. Every generation it is the same ****. No one can hate Intel more Krado. HE IS THE BENCHMARK. @ragnarok95 will agree. Fanboys these days weak la.

How Intel handled the current crisis was wrong. AMD is often protected as the meek and lowly underdog, but the fanboys rush to crucify the big, mean evil Intel and NVIDIA when they make mistakes. #FACT

The way I look at it is this: pick your poison. None are perfect or free of fault. Decide what you want and buy it. Then deal with whatever happens. Expect the worst. All of them suck and all of them are dishonest. None are honorable or trustworthy. And none of them care about you, your PC, or how it affects you. It's not their problem.

We should not expect more from Intel or hold them to a higher standard simply because their failure rate is lower or because their faults are more rare. In the end, what we expect from any of them does not matter. We do not matter. They only care about money, market status and shareholders. They all operate on the same business model. Shilling for either camp is pure stupidity and childishness in this time and age. Some people need to seek a new life. It's getting stale with all the bashing.

“We do not matter” hahaha, this is the most important sentence and most still dun get it when they side the camps. Lisa Su who wears the huge diamond ring (big fat bonus) on her finger everytime when she stand on AMD product launch stage does not give a half tit to what gamers and home consumer thinks or want. So long she can ride the opponent bashing waves (either intel or nvidia), make more money from the enterprises system and hyper-scalers, and answer to her shareholders. Home consumer cannot even afford a “Hopper” or “EPYC” at the blink of an eye, not much impact to their bottom line. Might as well spend more time building more evil, more expensive, more power hungry tech to sell to the big players. Focusing on gaming is a waste of resources to the high cost semi-con production cycles. Might as well tag all products with AI and ride the wave to trillion net worth (Nvidia, that is you).

As a consumer and enterprise user, I only care about who (which camp) is better, faster and cheaper. Which includes good software/platform (esp Linux) support, not just looks good on hardware specs. I had my fair share of ups and downs from both camps throughout my IT and tech career. Now I root for the next black horse (if there is ever one) to disrupt the market.

Definitely not here for the childish drama. ​

 

[elmariachi]

“We do not matter” hahaha, this is the most important sentence and most still dun get it when they side the camps. Lisa Su who wears the huge diamond ring (big fat bonus) on her finger everytime when she stand on AMD product launch stage does not give a half tit to what gamers and home consumer thinks or want. So long she can ride the opponent bashing waves (either intel or nvidia), make more money from the enterprises system and hyper-scalers, and answer to her shareholders. Home consumer cannot even afford a “Hopper” or “EPYC” at the blink of an eye, not much impact to their bottom line. Might as well spend more time building more evil, more expensive, more power hungry tech to sell to the big players. Focusing on gaming is a waste of resources to the high cost semi-con production cycles. Might as well tag all products with AI and ride the wave to trillion net worth (Nvidia, that is you).

As a consumer and enterprise user, I only care about who (which camp) is better, faster and cheaper. Which includes good software/platform (esp Linux) support, not just looks good on hardware specs. I had my fair share of ups and downs from both camps throughout my IT and tech career. Now I root for the next black horse (if there is ever one) to disrupt the market.

Definitely not here for the childish drama. ​

I mean you're dead right that even Nvidia doesn't give a crap about gaming now with their focus shifted to AI. When prices shot up due to bitcoin mining during the 3000 series, nvidia realised how much money consumers could actually throw if they wanted to for flagship GPUs. But GPU costs today is a complete joke. And 5000 series will be no exception. Because AMD isn't capable of a competent GPU till today that will remotely affect nvidia in a drastic way.

Intel and AMD will have their battles going in perpetuity. No one is going anywhere. Seems to me Intel is also not getting ample concessions from the U.S government as the current administration is much more interested in helping TSMC. Remember most of what TSMC fabricates is used for the U.S military hardware including missiles and planes. Also, manufacturing in U.S is a major challenge in terms of finding ample skilled labour. There is a massive brain drain in the U.S so far under that coffin magnet Biden.

Intel has to sort out their mess and if they can pull another Core2Duo miracle like they did after Prescott, it will be out of Israel's Intel R&D. The Gaza war isn't helping on this front either. So Intel looks strung behind bad luck or bad decisions or both.

Either way, the CPU market is becoming incredibly competitive and Intel has to manage the bad PR right now and focus on sorting out internal issues and advancing forward. We need both of them to fight and slaughter each other because either Intel or AMD going out of business means an automatic monopoly of the last one standing. No one wants that. I also struggle to understand small minds with absolutely zero intellect shilling for their own brand loyalty in this age and time.

 

[curiosity_20]

For gaming, AMD chips are used in Xbox and Playstation. Apple also produces its own M1 chips. There's not much market for intel chips at the moment.

Intel's revenue is going down and operating expenses going up. Time for layoffs!

Intel chips are fairly reliable, so one can expect a turn-around at some point in time. But to ease the pain, some of the employees will have to be let go / retrenched.

Not over for Intel but Nvidia will be in the driver's seat for a while..

If you like my answer, give me a thumbs up!

 

[Phen8210]

For gaming, AMD chips are used in Xbox and Playstation. Apple also produces its own M1 chips. There's not much market for intel chips at the moment.

Intel's revenue is going down and operating expenses going up. Time for layoffs!

Intel chips are fairly reliable, so one can expect a turn-around at some point in time. But to ease the pain, some of the employees will have to be let go / retrenched.

Not over for Intel but Nvidia will be in the driver's seat for a while..

If you like my answer, give me a thumbs up!

but but but... intel is the best, a lot of people use their

Spoiler

OLD

CPUs!!!!!!!

 

[keith]

hi all here...

PC computing only accounts for ~9% of the global SEMICON Revenue, which is way lesser than ~24% for mobile phones, in Y2023.

just for context.

 

[kimsix]

Frontier using AMD also.

Some of the companies are shifting towards AMD.

Maybe this mod here… also high chance shifting to AMD.

next week you buyed Zen5? NDP got long weekend to diy!

Please give report by then. msg my shopee frens performancepc/techdynamic to reserve zen5 and mobo

recommended mobo

asrock b650 steel legend (no need -E, this is as good)

b650e taichi lite

asus x670e-f

asus gene for OC

msi amd not really good im sorry

 

[watzup_ken]

Intel has to sort out their mess and if they can pull another Core2Duo miracle like they did after Prescott, it will be out of Israel's Intel R&D. The Gaza war isn't helping on this front either. So Intel looks strung behind bad luck or bad decisions or both.

Either way, the CPU market is becoming incredibly competitive and Intel has to manage the bad PR right now and focus on sorting out internal issues and advancing forward. We need both of them to fight and slaughter each other because either Intel or AMD going out of business means an automatic monopoly of the last one standing. No one wants that. I also struggle to understand small minds with absolutely zero intellect shilling for their own brand loyalty in this age and time.

It is not bad luck, but many years of missteps. They also allow competitors to easily catch up with them because they have done very little to improve their CPU offerings over the years. Essentially, they offer their customers almost like the bare minimal product, and if you want more performance or features you pay more (a lot more). Pat didn't have the luxury of prior CEOs where they pretty much got away with poor decisions because competition was non-existent. But I think the way Intel is handling the current Raptor Lake sage is poor, and as the CEO, Pat cannot be excused from it.

 

[elmariachi]

It is not bad luck, but many years of missteps. They also allow competitors to easily catch up with them because they have done very little to improve their CPU offerings over the years. Essentially, they offer their customers almost like the bare minimal product, and if you want more performance or features you pay more (a lot more). Pat didn't have the luxury of prior CEOs where they pretty much got away with poor decisions because competition was non-existent. But I think the way Intel is handling the current Raptor Lake sage is poor, and as the CEO, Pat cannot be excused from it.

Maybe specifically more of Pat's bad luck than Intel's bad luck. Certainly more missteps than bad luck for Intel as some of them are self-inflicted.

Pat Gelsinger's rationale to point out the past mistakes may probably include:

1. The situation is bad, let's face it.

2. If the situation doesn't improve faster enough, don't blame on me. I inherited all these problems.

Unfortunately, most those people who led Intel into today's problems had retired happily or moved on to other places.

 

[TanKianW]

next week you buyed Zen5? NDP got long weekend to diy!

Please give report by then. msg my shopee frens performancepc/techdynamic to reserve zen5 and mobo

recommended mobo

asrock b650 steel legend (no need -E, this is as good)

b650e taichi lite

asus x670e-f

asus gene for OC

msi amd not really good im sorry

Was at SLS PCtheme this week. Was told Zen 5 chips might be on sale in the next 2-3 weeks. A drop in upgrade with a BIOS flash will do.

May finally get one for my ASRock Rack B650 motherboard on standby for a while. ​

 

[kimsix]

Maybe specifically more of Pat's bad luck.

Pat Gelsinger's rationale to point out the past mistakes may probably include:

1. The situation is bad, let's face it.

2. If the situation doesn't improve faster enough, don't blame on me. I inherited all these problems.

Unfortunately, most those people who led Intel into today's problems had retired happily or moved on to other places.

it is worry pat 3 years already, things not improving, arrow lake on 4nm, finally same footing as zen5, but leaks say power consumption still high

this is first time intel do chiplets, not sure arl will suffer same high idle power and infinity fabric limitations

most daming is, pat had to beg to use tsmc for arrow lake and lunar lake, their simi intel7/10a/3 missing still, wtf engineers they hiring?

 

[elmariachi]

it is worry pat 3 years already, things not improving, arrow lake on 4nm, finally same footing as zen5, but leaks say power consumption still high

this is first time intel do chiplets, not sure arl will suffer same high idle power and infinity fabric limitations

most daming is, pat had to beg to use tsmc for arrow lake and lunar lake, their simi intel7/10a/3 missing still, wtf engineers they hiring?

Remains to be seen. Eveye one is waiting to see how arrow lake performs. 9000 series looks okay only without much of an uplift (3-4%) to 7000 series. The ones to wait for are the 9000 series X3D parts. Those are actually the ones that most reviewers will compare to the Intel ones for gaming. If arrow lake doesn't make the cut to compete with AMD, Intel may be in a far deeper trouble than all these problems they face now. As of now, arrow lake performance is still pretty much unknown. Don't forget arrow lake has removed hyperthreading completely and that itself will allow the cpu to use less voltage and run cooler. Efficiency wise arrow lake will be a good indication if anything at all has been improved with the new architecture.

If you ask me, most of the degradation and high idle voltages is due to their stupid 2 core boost to lead in single thread workloads. And some of the 14900k bins have such bad bins that you literally idle at 1.5v in Windows just for the 2 core boost to work. People like myself have always ran a fixed frequency with a static voltage and I've had absolutely had 0 issues with mine so far. Of course not everyone is familiar with this and that is also the reason why most that have glowing issues are all on stock settings with high idle voltages which is the majority of users.

 

[Phen8210]

next week you buyed Zen5? NDP got long weekend to diy!

Please give report by then. msg my shopee frens performancepc/techdynamic to reserve zen5 and mobo

recommended mobo

asrock b650 steel legend (no need -E, this is as good)

b650e taichi lite

asus x670e-f

asus gene for OC

msi amd not really good im sorry

wow, how dare you talk about buying AMD in this thread, later get labelled as AMD fanboy

Just refer to this guide I guess