jogging and motivation thread

[WussRedXLi]

Pour water will be great every 5km. Hydrate at 10km with small seeps of water. Can be trained when running on track since water cooler is nearby.

Mine is more frequent one, depending on venue and things it could be 400m (my place's rooftop, 800m circuit) to 1.5km. I use chilled water and also a tower (the 100 plus towel that you get from races) to soak up the chilled water and refill.
Now i have bike, so relatively easy to bring stuff out.

ps. Of coz i only do that for the "TT" runs. Only the really fast runs and/or longer ones need cooling.
My guess is that it's probably safer too.

 

[Kuudere]

Singaporean Sub 3hr marathoner paralyzed after a cycling accident made a amazing comeback to run a marathon again. Did it last year. . He said set goals, that is how I sustain running too. Used to be for health, for pleasure , for hobby (Still is, coz I like gadgets) but now is just set different goals one after another.

And note cycling accident, even without involving cars can be serious.

I think for me, my goals depend on the day itself. If go to track and see some fast runner, will try to pace with them and see if can beat them or not

Weather is just too warm.



Paced 5K cycling. Avg HR 147 for 5k, max 154.

4 mins plus later @ 2120h, gunned for the run. Seems good enough, last time just 1-2 mins later go run jitao hooted the shoes on and started, really could not feel the legs.

Pacing screwed up a little for the run (no thanks to the faster speed of cycling, so mentally the running seems slower than usual), after realising it near to 1km mark it was too late.
Wanted to run 4.5k or 4k, but could only push till 2.4 the lactic burn was terrible, warm weather also, So cut it, no point continuing.

Sg weather too hot already, but that being said I somehow ran faster for my long run today. Thanks to my interval training.

just remember HR zone training is all about HR, and not about pace. If have to go slower to be in the zone, than slower it is.

Just did my 14km progressive long run. I just went faster as the run continues, 1.08.26 14.14km

 

[Ender]

It's like that one lah.......also go google cardiovascular drift.

Ok.....here, just one of the many articles.
https://runnersconnect.net/coach-co...mportant-for-runners-who-train-by-heart-rate/

So dont blindly follow the zone range right to the dot, you might just be training in zone 1 or maybe even zone 0.

I think this coach conflate HR training goal with marathon pace training. Both are legit training, just marathon pace training we train by pace, and RPE, no HR. When doing HR training, protocol, pace is ignore. But it his choice to conflate both for his athletes, just confusing for us.

HR training actually takers care of cardiac drift. Cause as you get fatigue, the threshold pace becomes slower, and hence pace slow down correspondingly. And easy run usually takes cardiac drift as one of the sign that the run should ends soon. That's how we improve our steady HR duration with easy runs. During my prime prior to my hyperthroid, steady state for 2.5 hours before drift sets in for zone 2.

 

[WussRedXLi]

I always got this issue of pacing being screwed by cycling prior. Remember very similar pace.
One thing they say gotta be in tune and don't always look at watch, but......

This was in March during Taylor swift concert weekend. It was cooler then and no cycling "TT", so managed to last longer then b4 exploding with massive positive split lol

 

[WussRedXLi]

I think this coach conflate HR training goal with marathon pace training. Both are legit training, just marathon pace training we train by pace, and RPE, no HR. When doing HR training, protocol, pace is ignore. But it his choice to conflate both for his athletes, just confusing for us.

HR training actually takers care of cardiac drift. Cause as you get fatigue, the threshold pace becomes slower, and hence pace slow down correspondingly. And easy run usually takes cardiac drift as one of the sign that the run should ends soon. That's how we improve our steady HR duration with easy runs. During my prime prior to my hyperthroid, steady state for 2.5 hours before drift sets in for zone 2.

For me nowadays (esp such warm days) i really prefer to train by pace, with some reference based on HR.
Bo bian, if not longer runs i used to really slow down to like 5.30 and even nearly 6 min pace.
And similar for tempo or LT. For max effort i gotta use chilled water liao.

 

[Kuudere]

I think this coach conflate HR training goal with marathon pace training. Both are legit training, just marathon pace training we train by pace, and RPE, no HR. When doing HR training, protocol, pace is ignore. But it his choice to conflate both for his athletes, just confusing for us.

HR training actually takers care of cardiac drift. Cause as you get fatigue, the threshold pace becomes slower, and hence pace slow down correspondingly. And easy run usually takes cardiac drift as one of the sign that the run should ends soon. That's how we improve our steady HR duration with easy runs. During my prime prior to my hyperthroid, steady state for 2.5 hours before drift sets in for zone 2.

I get faster when I run, different strategy

Mine is more frequent one, depending on venue and things it could be 400m (my place's rooftop, 800m circuit) to 1.5km. I use chilled water and also a tower (the 100 plus towel that you get from races) to soak up the chilled water and refill.
Now i have bike, so relatively easy to bring stuff out.

ps. Of coz i only do that for the "TT" runs. Only the really fast runs and/or longer ones need cooling.
My guess is that it's probably safer too.

I think 5km is good enough for me, I try not to take too much water so can focus on my running.

 

[dreamaurora]

Anybody preordered the Reon Pocket 5?

https://store.sony.com.sg/products/reon-pocket-5

I preordered mine and the collection date will be 6 May.

Interested to see if this will help with running. The salesperson at Sony said could not use for running because not fully sweat proof but I still want to try.

 

[Kuudere]

Last week long run, 11.68km, avg. HR 172, 4.53 min/km > 0.52 min watch stop



This week long run, 14.14km, avg. HR 169, 4.50 min/km > 1.22 min watch stop



@Ender

Since you're a results oriented person, how come my avg. HR can drop when I run longer and faster? Same shoes, same route.

My mindset is that I will keep pushing and visualise my form as I run. In fact, for the entire long run, I just focus on my posture. I followed the negative split from the article that you linked and made adaptations from that strategy and improve from there.

So, with higher temperature, it's only natural that people will slow down and also have a higher HR. And it's not like Irenicus didn't slow down, he slowed down but his HR is still high.

I am more critical when certain training methods have huge potential to cause injuries, for e.g. sph running long run as a threshold run (15-16km at HMP pace). This kind of runs are like time trial. If done weekly coupled with intervals, it puts a lot of strain on the legs. And the outcome actually happened when he continued doing that.

There are some things that are black and white not a good idea. There are also things that are more grey area where it depends on your training, HR profile, etc.

But if almost everyone in this thread is affected by it and also national triathlete (not for me because I am heat adapted as you can see from my long run times), then you probably have to question what you mentioned.

 

[Irenicus91]

It's like that one lah.......also go google cardiovascular drift.

Ok.....here, just one of the many articles.
https://runnersconnect.net/coach-co...mportant-for-runners-who-train-by-heart-rate/

So dont blindly follow the zone range right to the dot, you might just be training in zone 1 or maybe even zone 0.

So can take HR less into account if I've been running for awhile (due to cardiac drift) and just care about the perceived effort instead?

Nowadays I just run fixed 1hr, try to maintain below MAF as much as possible. If cannot then at least as low as possible. Cos some of the days I run in the morning before WFH, no choice have to exceed MAF to make it back home in time.

 

[WussRedXLi]

I not that fit yet to be running and still be in zone 1

So can take HR less into account if I've been running for awhile (due to cardiac drift) and just care about the perceived effort instead?

Actually im not a super sciencey pax ........ it might also be due to the types of workouts/training/trials that i am doing.

For mon-fri office days, my "easy runs" are the legs for home->office and office->home jogs/brisk walks of around 1,1km distance, which are short. I put quotes coz it might be controversial to some folks that these can be considered as any training at all? So these are not gonna be affected by much cardio drift, if any at all from what i have seen on my watch
I go home for lunch (coz so near) and so that is 4 x 1.1km daily. Nowadays i gotta chop chop take a shower when reach home esp during lunchtime. Reach office is go server room stand in front of chiller (so far so good didnt get sick lol )


Then once per week would be a typical run, usually is faster ones be it strides/SIT and some threshold......or basically speedwork. But then quite chapalang also coz i never follow any prescribed plans or workouts, just run for speed. But i dont focus on distance, depending on feeling and time available it could be just 3-5k, it could 7-8k

I used to have more of these normal runs in a week prior to AHM 2023 (Aug 2023).
But then since last year Sep, i changed to cycling....only doing 1 of these typical runs per week instead of like 6-7 times a week.

 

[WussRedXLi]

I get faster when I run, different strategy

I think 5km is good enough for me, I try not to take too much water so can focus on my running.

Oh....actually i dont really take in water during the runs unless if it's long runs. Coz feel that the absorption is pretty slow....for hard efforts confirm just sit in the stomach slosh around nia.

Im talking about parking my bike at one spot and then i run to and fro straight lines and then run past it and splash the small cups of chilled ice-slushies or re-wet the ubiquitous 100-plus towel ( ) with the chilled water.
It has to be chilled water or ice-slushie for me, not just water.

For ice-slushie i first put it near the vents of the bottom compartment of the fridge so thatit gets to around 2-4 deg C. Then when i each home i place it into the freezer, it freezes partially after like 2 hours and i just shake it. Then i cycle to ME or GBTB, the 2 spots having straight paths and open skyline for the 3/5/10k "TTs" (during CNY period i tried some 1.6K as well).
Side story : Actually coz it's all straight lines if i do @ Marina area, I dont feel that the GPS of my Huawei kena any substantial "cutting corner" effects, other than a small bit at each u-turn at the end of the straight paths but it does not vary wildly vs the Goggle Map measurements.

 

[sph777]

I was wondering running at 4 am

Would it be much better.

I run at 4am it's much less traffic and much cooler. Just must be careful on roads

 

[Ender]

Last week long run, 11.68km, avg. HR 172, 4.53 min/km > 0.52 min watch stop



This week long run, 14.14km, avg. HR 169, 4.50 min/km > 1.22 min watch stop



@Ender

Since you're a results oriented person, how come my avg. HR can drop when I run longer and faster? Same shoes, same route.

Your HR profile between the two runs are vastly different. Can't have a fair comparison. If just going by reading your HR profile, I would have guess your are doing different workout. You also need to explain why the sudden rise in HR just before 4km mark in the first profile, and then then 2nd spike and 3rd spike. Farlek? or cadence lock?

Anyway, not talking about your two runs, two different days workout can have different HR, due to form and weather factors, but ball park is there. Here's my two runs only a week apart. Its the same steady state Pace assigned by TAO, but different HR, even though it still steady state HR. I can only say my one with 139 HR was just a bad day. Both distance and route the same. I can compare these two runs, coz of the steady state nature profile. Maybe I have improved? Need more repeated results to confirm that, but since the HR profile is similar, they are comparable if the workout are the same.




To judge a average of a HR, try to use the steady state portion of the run to judge if that was a good run or wanting to compare to another older runs. Those HR that shoot up one moment, climb down another moment, averaging them out is not going to compare well with another that don't follow the same profile.

 

[Ender]

But if almost everyone in this thread is affected by it and also national triathlete (not for me because I am heat adapted as you can see from my long run times), then you probably have to question what you mentioned.

Enlighten please, what I have mentioned? is it about cardiac drift? I don't disagree with cardiac drift. I experience it too. But my drift starts earlier than before compare to last time. Just different strategy when dealing with drift. In most low HR training, is to keep HR constant and when the drift occurs, lower the pace. If lowering the pace to walking doesn't lower HR, then the training has become too hard. Coz there another matter of taking note how fast your HR recover, if it doesn't recover from lowering pace, might be a sign of pushing too hard. By right during easy run, your HR should be manageable. Unlike hard training, for e.g a good Interval training, your HR recovery will not drop to your easy pace HR after that workout as it is hard.

If you see my two plot above, my HR is actually climbing later. But I was employing pace base training of TAO. So I was keeping pace, by allowing my HR to rise. I am not against pace base training if that what you trying to say, coz now my training are all pace based. Neither am I against HR base training or RPE base. You choose your medicine. Maybe I have been talking about the HR base protocol? Well if I am into a protocol, I try to stick to it. Like once I was into 80/20 polarise training. I strictly don't do grey zone running zone 3 or 4. No threshold, no tempo. But that was short lived when I started periodize training for a 17 week marathon. When I was on MAF, I was strictly on MAF HR base training, no training above 128 bpm. I adhere strictly to it. SO when I talk about a protocol, it will sound strict, coz I will follow strictly, but that doesn't mean I am against other, coz mostly likely I have tried those as well.

 

[Kuudere]

Oh....actually i dont really take in water during the runs unless if it's long runs. Coz feel that the absorption is pretty slow....for hard efforts confirm just sit in the stomach slosh around nia.

Im talking about parking my bike at one spot and then i run to and fro straight lines and then run past it and splash the small cups of chilled ice-slushies or re-wet the ubiquitous 100-plus towel ( ) with the chilled water.
It has to be chilled water or ice-slushie for me, not just water.

For ice-slushie i first put it near the vents of the bottom compartment of the fridge so thatit gets to around 2-4 deg C. Then when i each home i place it into the freezer, it freezes partially after like 2 hours and i just shake it. Then i cycle to ME or GBTB, the 2 spots having straight paths and open skyline for the 3/5/10k "TTs" (during CNY period i tried some 1.6K as well).
Side story : Actually coz it's all straight lines if i do @ Marina area, I dont feel that the GPS of my Huawei kena any substantial "cutting corner" effects, other than a small bit at each u-turn at the end of the straight paths but it does not vary wildly vs the Goggle Map measurements.

You can try testing it on track, put your bottle at one corner cool yourself down from time to time

Your HR profile between the two runs are vastly different. Can't have a fair comparison. If just going by reading your HR profile, I would have guess your are doing different workout. You also need to explain why the sudden rise in HR just before 4km mark in the first profile, and then then 2nd spike and 3rd spike. Farlek? or cadence lock?

Anyway, not talking about your two runs, two different days workout can have different HR, due to form and weather factors, but ball park is there. Here's my two runs only a week apart. Its the same steady state Pace assigned by TAO, but different HR, even though it still steady state HR. I can only say my one with 139 HR was just a bad day. Both distance and route the same. I can compare these two runs, coz of the steady state nature profile. Maybe I have improved? Need more repeated results to confirm that, but since the HR profile is similar, they are comparable if the workout are the same.




To judge a average of a HR, try to use the steady state portion of the run to judge if that was a good run or wanting to compare to another older runs. Those HR that shoot up one moment, climb down another moment, averaging them out is not going to compare well with another that don't follow the same profile.

Yes, it's a different workout but it was harder, I was doing 3k easy, 5k steady, 6k HMP. I usually go for harder workout compared to the previous week, to see if I can improve on that. For that run, I tweaked my strategy and then run longer and faster.

I managed to run faster at a longer distance, not having to exert as hard. And I think I can still improve on that, since it's a work in progress.

First 3km: 5.20
Mid 5km: 4.55
Last 6.14km: 4.32

From a comparison standpoint, it's definitely not as exact as what you are getting at. But I want to keep tweaking the strategy to optimise it to be more efficient and also injury-free.

Enlighten please, what I have mentioned? is it about cardiac drift? I don't disagree with cardiac drift. I experience it too. But my drift starts earlier than before compare to last time. Just different strategy when dealing with drift. In most low HR training, is to keep HR constant and when the drift occurs, lower the pace. If lowering the pace to walking doesn't lower HR, then the training has become too hard. Coz there another matter of taking note how fast your HR recover, if it doesn't recover from lowering pace, might be a sign of pushing too hard. By right during easy run, your HR should be manageable. Unlike hard training, for e.g a good Interval training, your HR recovery will not drop to your easy pace HR after that workout as it is hard.

If you see my two plot above, my HR is actually climbing later. But I was employing pace base training of TAO. So I was keeping pace, by allowing my HR to rise. I am not against pace base training if that what you trying to say, coz now my training are all pace based. Neither am I against HR base training.

I am more concerned with heat and recovery runs. Not really on cardiac drift. The avg. HR is a lot higher during recovery runs because of the heat. I believe that slowing down is important but it shouldn't come at the expense of changing running form too much. Most of the times, I just go with vdot/macmillian calculator for recovery pace at the slower end of it. This would still give me 150+ avg. HR because of the heat. During the run, I could still run at conversational pace with my sibling. The national triathlete, Aaron Lee went from threadmill running with air con at 125 avg. HR to 153 avg. HR, despite slowing down his pace 5.27 > 6.07.

At the end of the day, what matters is that my legs are not feeling too fatigue after the easy run. And it serves that purpose even though I am running at 150 avg. HR, which isn't considered as easy by the watch. If this was the case and I have been doing this for weeks, I will be injured by now for going too hard continuously for my easy runs.

 

[ctan84]

Aiyah cardiac drift issue again. This one we all have to accept its a pain in the ass when running in a tropical climate and as such, training that's HR focused becomes very limited use. I am of the stand that HR zones are only useful in 2 settings: 1) recovery / easy run where the focus is not to over-strain & 2) high intensity work whereby you really want to ensure you are pushing hard enough for the benefits.

Everything else HR zones are quite pointless liao coz you need to remember the runner needs 2 types of adaptations to improve performance: central (cardiac) & peripheral (muscle). If you go by HR zones and keep dropping pace to try to drop the HR readings coz of drift, you peripheral working muscles (legs in this case) are not getting the stress they need from a higher speed. Over time, you can end up in a situation whereby you won't be able to hold the speed you desire over the required distance liao coz of the lack of peripheral adaptation or what we call "muscular endurance".

Then there's a group of pple with medical conditions where HR training is totally useless. I recall during @zeroX26's class he said b4 that he has beta thalassemia (not enough red blood cells), so if he were to obey HR training zones, his moderate intensity will forever be limited to brisk walking liao.

 

[WussRedXLi]

So can take HR less into account if I've been running for awhile (due to cardiac drift) and just care about the perceived effort instead?
Nowadays I just run fixed 1hr, try to maintain below MAF as much as possible. If cannot then at least as low as possible. Cos some of the days I run in the morning before WFH, no choice have to exceed MAF to make it back home in time.

One thing that differs from person to person is heat acclimatisation, only you as the stakeholder can answer that i guess. It's not going to be factored in by your training program or your smartwatch.

The perceived effort (ie RPE) for gauging zone 2 can also be somewhat gauged by trying to speak/sing.
See if you can complete a 10-15 word sentence if your HR is elevated on a warm day.

Alternatively, what you can also do now is also to try easy running in a gym, best if there is a fan. I used to do that when the company gym was available to me, in fact 1 standing fan and 1 floor fan. lol Temperature pretty cold there, 20 deg C RH low 50s% according to the wall thermo/hygrometer.
You can then also solidify what RPE at Zone 2 feels like, so that you can then run on warm days (evenings like 6.30pm?) and see if you can form any relationship with regards to this cardiac drift.


Or just do it my wah lah, use chilled water and ice slushies, that 100 plus towel that you get from local races,
Coz ultimately whichever way you and I and anyone here cuts it, the high heat index warm weather is here for most parts of the year. LLST, we live here where it is warm and humid, ie high heat index.
For me i would never be able to run below 4.00 pace for more than that first few km if not for active cooling.....eg my MHR is around 180 (i measured 182 before, once), then i am already hitting like mid 170s past a certain km mark at say "just" 4.00-4.15, then push simi?

 

[Ender]

Aiyah cardiac drift issue again. This one we all have to accept its a pain in the ass when running in a tropical climate and as such, training that's HR focused becomes very limited use. I am of the stand that HR zones are only useful in 2 settings: 1) recovery / easy run where the focus is not to over-strain & 2) high intensity work whereby you really want to ensure you are pushing hard enough for the benefits.

Everything else HR zones are quite pointless liao coz you need to remember the runner needs 2 types of adaptations to improve performance: central (cardiac) & peripheral (muscle). If you go by HR zones and keep dropping pace to try to drop the HR readings coz of drift, you peripheral working muscles (legs in this case) are not getting the stress they need from a higher speed. Over time, you can end up in a situation whereby you won't be able to hold the speed you desire over the required distance liao coz of the lack of peripheral adaptation or what we call "muscular endurance".

Then there's a group of pple with medical conditions where HR training is totally useless. I recall during @zeroX26's class he said b4 that he has beta thalassemia (not enough red blood cells), so if he were to obey HR training zones, his moderate intensity will forever be limited to brisk walking liao.

I think time to time, brings up for discussion is great. I guess that is why marathon training programme are a combination of everything and largely pace base. With long runs to include MP pace for a portion of the run.

HR training has it limitation, but their philosophy is rooted on being easy and high volumes. So it not the best training programmed for marathon HM, or 10km if timing goal is the criteria. But more me, it was mileage accumulator during the covid lock down.

 

[Irenicus91]

One thing that differs from person to person is heat acclimatisation, only you as the stakeholder can answer that i guess. It's not going to be factored in by your training program or your smartwatch.

The perceived effort (ie RPE) for gauging zone 2 can also be somewhat gauged by trying to speak/sing.
See if you can complete a 10-15 word sentence if your HR is elevated on a warm day.

Alternatively, what you can also do now is also to try easy running in a gym, best if there is a fan. I used to do that when the company gym was available to me, in fact 1 standing fan and 1 floor fan. lol Temperature pretty cold there, 20 deg C RH low 50s% according to the wall thermo/hygrometer.
You can then also solidify what RPE at Zone 2 feels like, so that you can then run on warm days (evenings like 6.30pm?) and see if you can form any relationship with regards to this cardiac drift.


Or just do it my wah lah, use chilled water and ice slushies, that 100 plus towel that you get from local races,
Coz ultimately whichever way you and I and anyone here cuts it, the high heat index warm weather is here for most parts of the year. LLST, we live here where it is warm and humid, ie high heat index.
For me i would never be able to run below 4.00 pace for more than that first few km if not for active cooling.....eg my MHR is around 180 (i measured 182 before, once), then i am already hitting like mid 170s past a certain km mark at say "just" 4.00-4.15, then push simi?

Yep, ok will try to run on treadmill in aircon room the next time I get an opportunity.

Cos I cannot tahan running on treadmill, scenery never change I will get very bored. So far all my runs are done outdoors. But think need to run on it once in awhile to track my progress.

 

[ctan84]

I think time to time, brings up for discussion is great. I guess that is why marathon training programme are a combination of everything and largely pace base. With long runs to include MP pace for a portion of the run.

HR training has it limitation, but their philosophy is rooted on being easy and high volumes. So it not the best training programmed for marathon HM, or 10km if timing goal is the criteria. But more me, it was mileage accumulator during the covid lock down.

My approach to training is quite straight-forward one - the runner just need to identify the main goal of each type of run, then from there you will be able to decide better to use pace or HR.

1) Easy / recovery run: The most common mistake is to go too hard when its supposed to be easy. Many runners have no issue pushing hard, but they struggle to go easy esp if its aim is to "recover" and not "stress". So this type of run use HR, not pace.

2) Long runs (esp marathon prep): The key thing you want to improve here is muscular endurance or the ability to hold a specific range of pace for as long a distance as possible / delay fatigue as much as possible. For this to work, your brain MUST 1) recognise & 2) remember the CONSISTENT pace you are using (read Tim Noakes' central governor theory about this). Hence, pace NOT HR matters the most here.

3) Aerobic filler mid distance runs (4-10km): See how you are filling that day. If you are feeling a tad tired / sluggish & your next workout is gonna be a hard one, I would say use HR. If you are feeling ok, then just stick to your desired range of pace. No hard and fast rule for filler runs. You want to half-half also can. First half use HR to be more conservative then end strong on the 2nd half using pace.

4) Threshold (LT2) and HIIT: I would say both HR and pace, but pace gets priority. For these 2 workouts, HR is a very useful secondary indicator to ensure you are indeed working hard.