learning japanese

azumangadaioh

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But I thought you cannot choose which sensei to teach you?

Yes. We cannot choose the sensei, but surely we can find out who is teaching which class AND THEN choose the class accordingly which we know the sensei which we want has received good feedback ?
 

azumangadaioh

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Sorry but where does ur friend studies? No offence but Bunka sound too good to be true that it seems that their patent teaching method makes other schools seem sub-par in terms of their teaching in grammar and vocabulary:)

This is my story, so bear with the long windedness:

We used to study at Cambridge Jurong East together ( immediate level ) Aug 2008, the textbook used came from Minna no Nihongo, that time I did not really know even hiragana yet much less katakana, there was not really a structure or system that the school uses, but rather depend on the sensei's teaching ability & experience.

Still, the sensei was great, there was dialogue practice amongst students ( I know there are others that have senseis that babble on and on till the class ends without dialogue ), exercises that we do, homework to bring back ( most of the time I struggle to finish it, sometimes not even done at all, basically I couldn't read hiragana ) and sometimes video and listening comprehension. Some in the class are more competent than others, some struggle to even answer basic questions, since there was no qualifying test to have *quality control*, people with all sorts of abilities are in the class. Maybe the one at Jurong East has a lot less enquiries ( one class maybe once every few mths ) than those at Peninsula Plaza, where they have packed classes.

Thing is I felt lousy, and yes I was lazy, yes I was not really taking it seriously when I first signed up for that course at the beginning. So I went online, checked the websites of those schools with full price listings and course details, and of course I found this forum too along the way. Some here recommended this, some recommended that, of course it included my current school.

So I figured, 8 wks for Ele1, Ele2, Int1, Int2, Int3, Int4 each, effectively one would be able to learn to the equivalent of JLPT3 in 1 year assuming the lessons are non-stop week after week, AND PRE-ADV 1 to 3 is only 4mths each, only another 1 year !

Since Bunka Int2 = JLPT4, Int4 = JLPT3 and PRE-ADV = JLPT2

So I signed up their day ELE1 early Oct class ( 2 lessons / wk - finish in 6wks ), while my cambridge lessons are on silll ongoing with 4 wks to go.

Then somehow either I was possessed or rather after a few lessons, my hiragana started to pick up, also, using particles が は を に と for basic uses became clearer. The difference was Bunka is teaching using the ADDITION method whereas most schools ( or any school teaching other languages ) using SUBTRACTION method.

E.g. Later today, I want to go to Takashimaya and have my dinner there
normally, the common method will be to show to swap variables:
1. change *Takashimaya* to other location
2. change *dinner* to lunch / breakfast etc
3. change *want to* to intend to, like to, going to
4. change *Later* to just now, earlier, soon
5. change *today* to tomorrow, yesterday
6. change *and have my dinner here* to *take a bus home* or *some other activity*
All this above while maintaining the length of sentence / aka forming sentences by removing ( subtracting ) parts & changing parts / from a long sentence to a shorter one that you want

in comparision:
e.g. of ADDITION at ELE1 level: ( I try to follow their teaching sequence as accurately as possible )

1. I go to *somewhere* where *somewhere* = post office / bank / school
2. *day* + I go to *somewhere* where *day* = today / tomorrow
3. *day* + I go to *somewhere* + and + *some other activity*
4. *day* + *from X time to Y time* + I go to *somewhere* + and + *some other activity*

so in nihongo it becomes ( typing in romaji for those that cannot read hiragana yet ):

1. watashi wa gakkoo e ikun desu / watashi wa gakkoo e ikimasu
2. kyo + watashi wa gakkoo e ikun desu / kyo + watashi wa gakkoo e ikimasu
3. kyo + watashi wa gakkoo e ikun desu + sore kara + *some other activity*
4. kyo + 12ji kara 6ji made + watashi wa gakkoo e ikun desu + sore kara + *some other activity*

Legend: gakkoo = school, go = iku / ikimasu, kyo = today, sore kara = and then, kara = from, made = to,
ji = ~ o'clock, *wa* and *e* are particles to join sentences.

Here effectively I can choose what parts I want and add them accordingly, even if I forget some words, I can drop using them ( not recommended though ) , and the listener will be able to understand from context. ( not to mention faster response time from me in replying and answering )

Decide for yourself which one works for you...

Then I got greedy, if I could learn hiragana in less than 6wks, why not I take their placement test and jump to ELE2 ? Which I passed, less than 4wks after I started ELE1 class with 5-6 lessons to go. And joined ELE2 class with 1 lesson left.

By this time my sensei at Cambridge was pleasantly surprised when I made a turn in improvements with 1 or 2 lessons left, when I showed her the Bunka textbk she commented how different it is from others. I don't have the heart to tell her I suddenly decided to work hard so that's how I improved quickly but I just told her the truth as everyone in the class knows ( myself included ) I am amongst the bottom 3.

I got greedy again, wanted to go even more faster, so attempted the placement test for Int1 which I eventually passed when the ELE2 was ending with 2-3 lessons to go, by the time I started Int1 it was mid Dec 2008, finished it somewhere in Feb. That was when it dawned on me realizing JLPT2 may be possible this year, remotely, yes, but still achieveable.

After that, I skipped group lessons and started attending individual lessons since there is not much time left till Dec.

As of now, should be able to finish Int 4 this month or early next month depending on how fast I learn the honorific form and humble form.

Other schools I cannot say is sub-par or not, but what I do know is I have never learned anything as fast as this using this method my whole life, before that maybe I was lazy, maybe I had poor study techniques, maybe I even have learning disabilities, but somehow I can pick them up faster, perhaps it matches my personality or it's my preferred learning style. And I know I definitely will not want to, will not be able to learn a list of 30-40 words presented to me everytime I go for EVERY SINGLE lesson like before.

I think you should just sign up for ELE1 and see if it suits you, take those classes that are taught by senseis that have some experience ( a few new senseis just started teaching couple of weeks after arriving from Japan ), even if you think you can pass the placement test. Jumping in halfway at middle levels will not be really beneficial since courses are build on one another & relates to previous courses, unless you want to save some money & time, otherwise, you will be handicapped by the things missed out even if you passed their placement tests.

Oh I forgot, my friend is currently at Stanford Jurong East...
 
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King Pikachu

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This is my story, so bear with the long windedness:

We used to study at Cambridge Jurong East together ( immediate level ) Aug 2008, the textbook used came from Minna no Nihongo, that time I did not really know even hiragana yet much less katakana, there was not really a structure or system that the school uses, but rather depend on the sensei's teaching ability & experience.

Still, the sensei was great, there was dialogue practice amongst students ( I know there are others that have senseis that babble on and on till the class ends without dialogue ), exercises that we do, homework to bring back ( most of the time I struggle to finish it, sometimes not even done at all, basically I couldn't read hiragana ) and sometimes video and listening comprehension. Some in the class are more competent than others, some struggle to even answer basic questions, since there was no qualifying test to have *quality control*, people with all sorts of abilities are in the class. Maybe the one at Jurong East has a lot less enquiries ( one class maybe once every few mths ) than those at Peninsula Plaza, where they have packed classes.

Thing is I felt lousy, and yes I was lazy, yes I was not really taking it seriously when I first signed up for that course at the beginning. So I went online, checked the websites of those schools with full price listings and course details, and of course I found this forum too along the way. Some here recommended this, some recommended that, of course it included my current school.

So I figured, 8 wks for Ele1, Ele2, Int1, Int2, Int3, Int4 each, effectively one would be able to learn to the equivalent of JLPT3 in 1 year assuming the lessons are non-stop week after week, AND PRE-ADV 1 to 3 is only 4mths each, only another 1 year !

Since Bunka Int2 = JLPT4, Int4 = JLPT3 and PRE-ADV = JLPT2

So I signed up their day ELE1 early Oct class ( 2 lessons / wk - finish in 6wks ), while my cambridge lessons are on silll ongoing with 4 wks to go.

Then somehow either I was possessed or rather after a few lessons, my hiragana started to pick up, also, using particles が は を に と for basic uses became clearer. The difference was Bunka is teaching using the ADDITION method whereas most schools ( or any school teaching other languages ) using SUBTRACTION method.

E.g. Later today, I want to go to Takashimaya and have my dinner there
normally, the common method will be to show to swap variables:
1. change *Takashimaya* to other location
2. change *dinner* to lunch / breakfast etc
3. change *want to* to intend to, like to, going to
4. change *Later* to just now, earlier, soon
5. change *today* to tomorrow, yesterday
6. change *and have my dinner here* to *take a bus home* or *some other activity*
All this above while maintaining the length of sentence / aka forming sentences by removing ( subtracting ) parts & changing parts / from a long sentence to a shorter one that you want

in comparision:
e.g. of ADDITION at ELE1 level: ( I try to follow their teaching sequence as accurately as possible )

1. I go to *somewhere* where *somewhere* = post office / bank / school
2. *day* + I go to *somewhere* where *day* = today / tomorrow
3. *day* + I go to *somewhere* + and + *some other activity*
4. *day* + *from X time to Y time* + I go to *somewhere* + and + *some other activity*

so in nihongo it becomes ( typing in romaji for those that cannot read hiragana yet ):

1. watashi wa gakkoo e ikun desu / watashi wa gakkoo e ikimasu
2. kyo + watashi wa gakkoo e ikun desu / kyo + watashi wa gakkoo e ikimasu
3. kyo + watashi wa gakkoo e ikun desu + sore kara + *some other activity*
4. kyo + 12ji kara 6ji made + watashi wa gakkoo e ikun desu + sore kara + *some other activity*

Legend: gakkoo = school, go = iku / ikimasu, kyo = today, sore kara = and then, kara = from, made = to,
ji = ~ o'clock, *wa* and *e* are particles to join sentences.

Here effectively I can choose what parts I want and add them accordingly, even if I forget some words, I can drop using them ( not recommended though ) , and the listener will be able to understand from context. ( not to mention faster response time from me in replying and answering )

Decide for yourself which one works for you...

Then I got greedy, if I could learn hiragana in less than 6wks, why not I take their placement test and jump to ELE2 ? Which I passed, less than 4wks after I started ELE1 class with 5-6 lessons to go. And joined ELE2 class with 1 lesson left.

By this time my sensei at Cambridge was pleasantly surprised when I made a turn in improvements with 1 or 2 lessons left, when I showed her the Bunka textbk she commented how different it is from others. I don't have the heart to tell her I suddenly decided to work hard so that's how I improved quickly but I just told her the truth as everyone in the class knows ( myself included ) I am amongst the bottom 3.

I got greedy again, wanted to go even more faster, so attempted the placement test for Int1 which I eventually passed when the ELE2 was ending with 2-3 lessons to go, by the time I started Int1 it was mid Dec 2008, finished it somewhere in Feb. That was when it dawned on me realizing JLPT2 may be possible this year, remotely, yes, but still achieveable.

After that, I skipped group lessons and started attending individual lessons since there is not much time left till Dec.

As of now, should be able to finish Int 4 this month or early next month depending on how fast I learn the honorific form and humble form.

Other schools I cannot say is sub-par or not, but what I do know is I have never learned anything as fast as this using this method my whole life, before that maybe I was lazy, maybe I had poor study techniques, maybe I even have learning disabilities, but somehow I can pick them up faster, perhaps it matches my personality or it's my preferred learning style. And I know I definitely will not want to, will not be able to learn a list of 30-40 words presented to me everytime I go for EVERY SINGLE lesson like before.

I think you should just sign up for ELE1 and see if it suits you, take those classes that are taught by senseis that have some experience ( a few new senseis just started teaching couple of weeks after arriving from Japan ), even if you think you can pass the placement test. Jumping in halfway at middle levels will not be really beneficial since courses are build on one another & relates to previous courses, unless you want to save some money & time, otherwise, you will be handicapped by the things missed out even if you passed their placement tests.

Oh I forgot, my friend is currently at Stanford Jurong East...

Thank You for sharing your experience...yeah I agree that Bunka teaching method sure suits u and managed to arouse your interest to learning japanese(おめんでとうぎざうます) I agree that differnet sch suits different ppl because different schools will have different methods to arouse the interest of the people and their learning abilities and lastly, IKOMA suit me for this aspect... cheers:)
 

dimitri_can

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There are some things i wish to comment, as i have been studying in all the Japanese schools before.

We used to study at Cambridge Jurong East together ( immediate level ) Aug 2008, the textbook used came from Minna no Nihongo, that time I did not really know even hiragana yet much less katakana, there was not really a structure or system that the school uses, but rather depend on the sensei's teaching ability & experience.

This i agree. How good the teacher teach will help to motivate the students.

So I figured, 8 wks for Ele1, Ele2, Int1, Int2, Int3, Int4 each, effectively one would be able to learn to the equivalent of JLPT3 in 1 year assuming the lessons are non-stop week after week, AND PRE-ADV 1 to 3 is only 4mths each, only another 1 year !

Do you know that Pre-Advanced courses do not teach JLPT 2 like what the other schools like Ikoma,Hougang teaches? Bunka's Pre-Advanced courses are basically courses that focus on conversation skills, rather than letting you attempt JLPT 2. And if you can't speak well, you would be stuck at the same level. My friend got stuck in Pre-Advanced 2 for 8 months already. Still haven't promote. He was so disappointed that he decided to go to Ikoma to study the prep course for JLPT 2. I suggest you find out more details about their Pre-Advanced classes.

Then somehow either I was possessed or rather after a few lessons, my hiragana started to pick up, also, using particles が は を に と for basic uses became clearer. The difference was Bunka is teaching using the ADDITION method whereas most schools ( or any school teaching other languages ) using SUBTRACTION method.

E.g. Later today, I want to go to Takashimaya and have my dinner there
normally, the common method will be to show to swap variables:
1. change *Takashimaya* to other location
2. change *dinner* to lunch / breakfast etc
3. change *want to* to intend to, like to, going to
4. change *Later* to just now, earlier, soon
5. change *today* to tomorrow, yesterday
6. change *and have my dinner here* to *take a bus home* or *some other activity*
All this above while maintaining the length of sentence / aka forming sentences by removing ( subtracting ) parts & changing parts / from a long sentence to a shorter one that you want

in comparision:
e.g. of ADDITION at ELE1 level: ( I try to follow their teaching sequence as accurately as possible )

1. I go to *somewhere* where *somewhere* = post office / bank / school
2. *day* + I go to *somewhere* where *day* = today / tomorrow
3. *day* + I go to *somewhere* + and + *some other activity*
4. *day* + *from X time to Y time* + I go to *somewhere* + and + *some other activity*

so in nihongo it becomes ( typing in romaji for those that cannot read hiragana yet ):

1. watashi wa gakkoo e ikun desu / watashi wa gakkoo e ikimasu
2. kyo + watashi wa gakkoo e ikun desu / kyo + watashi wa gakkoo e ikimasu
3. kyo + watashi wa gakkoo e ikun desu + sore kara + *some other activity*
4. kyo + 12ji kara 6ji made + watashi wa gakkoo e ikun desu + sore kara + *some other activity*

Legend: gakkoo = school, go = iku / ikimasu, kyo = today, sore kara = and then, kara = from, made = to,
ji = ~ o'clock, *wa* and *e* are particles to join sentences.

Good way i would say, but it would confuse beginners. For you, you have experience in Minna no Nihongo syllabus, so it's should be easy for you.

Other schools I cannot say is sub-par or not, but what I do know is I have never learned anything as fast as this using this method my whole life, before that maybe I was lazy, maybe I had poor study techniques, maybe I even have learning disabilities, but somehow I can pick them up faster, perhaps it matches my personality or it's my preferred learning style. And I know I definitely will not want to, will not be able to learn a list of 30-40 words presented to me everytime I go for EVERY SINGLE lesson like before.

I think you should just sign up for ELE1 and see if it suits you, take those classes that are taught by senseis that have some experience ( a few new senseis just started teaching couple of weeks after arriving from Japan ), even if you think you can pass the placement test. Jumping in halfway at middle levels will not be really beneficial since courses are build on one another & relates to previous courses, unless you want to save some money & time, otherwise, you will be handicapped by the things missed out even if you passed their placement tests.

Grammar without vocabulary is useless. I am a living example. When you want to speak to Japanese and your vocabulary power is not there, it's very very hard for you to speak and people can straight away tell from your vocabulary power, your Japanese is not there, and some of them just don't want to talk to you any longer. Ignoring you as if you weren't there.

Ultimately, as i always say, Certificate or Conversation skills? 最後の選択は?
 
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demid

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wow.... I applaud azumanga daioh's effort to improve. Haven't seen such a long post in quite some time.

It seems that you are learning at quite a fast pace. From Aug 08 to now Jun 09, and going on JLPT 2 already. Not to sound mean but how is your listening coming along? And what do you do for listening practice? Because i think listening is a skill that takes some time to form. :)
 

sweet_vanilla

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dimitri >> you're in Ikoma too??
Which level?
Must be in Further Advance?
Are the books over @ that web u given cheap?
 

dimitri_can

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wow.... I applaud azumanga daioh's effort to improve. Haven't seen such a long post in quite some time.

It seems that you are learning at quite a fast pace. From Aug 08 to now Jun 09, and going on JLPT 2 already. Not to sound mean but how is your listening coming along? And what do you do for listening practice? Because i think listening is a skill that takes some time to form. :)
demid殿、

長いメッセジーがほしいの?私はいつでもあげられますよ。 =p
 

demid

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demid殿、

長いメッセジーがほしいの?私はいつでもあげられますよ。 =p

lol.... has nothing to do with my wants or the length of the msg.....

It's always nice to have people contributing to this thread.

And pls drop the 殿 part, its unsettling.....:yawn:
 

dimitri_can

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「殿」のことは冗談だ... haha..

yup, i always love to have ppl in this thread, make this thread more lively.
 

azumangadaioh

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There are some things i wish to comment, as i have been studying in all the Japanese schools before.



This i agree. How good the teacher teach will help to motivate the students.



Do you know that Pre-Advanced courses do not teach JLPT 2 like what the other schools like Ikoma,Hougang teaches? Bunka's Pre-Advanced courses are basically courses that focus on conversation skills, rather than letting you attempt JLPT 2. And if you can't speak well, you would be stuck at the same level. My friend got stuck in Pre-Advanced 2 for 8 months already. Still haven't promote. He was so disappointed that he decided to go to Ikoma to study the prep course for JLPT 2. I suggest you find out more details about their Pre-Advanced classes.



Good way i would say, but it would confuse beginners. For you, you have experience in Minna no Nihongo syllabus, so it's should be easy for you.



Grammar without vocabulary is useless. I am a living example. When you want to speak to Japanese and your vocabulary power is not there, it's very very hard for you to speak and people can straight away tell from your vocabulary power, your Japanese is not there, and some of them just don't want to talk to you any longer. Ignoring you as if you weren't there.

Ultimately, as i always say, Certificate or Conversation skills? 最後の選択は?

I agree with you. The examples given are a simple summary of grammar and skills of what those taking Ele1 levels SHOULD HAVE after finishing the course, of course there are other grammar that I left out that are important but not central to the course at elementary levels, but will come into play later on.

Experience in Minna no Nihongo wise, I can't say I have much, as any advantage I have and lessons learnt at cambridge basically evaporated by the time I hit the 3th lesson for Ele2 course ( which is 7-8weeks spent at cambridge at that point ), I can safely say that the money I spent at cambridge has been wasted by then ( recalling that I spent a total of 20 weeks at cambridge still not able to read, write hiragana and katakana, much less speaking ).

Money wise, 3 courses at Bunka ( elementary1 = 8wks x 3hrs/ elementary2 = 8wks x 3hrs / intermediate1 = 8wks x 3hrs) is almost equal to 2 courses of cambridge ( beginner = 10wks x 2.5hrs / immediate = 10wks x 2.5hrs ), content wise ( using equal amount of money spent to compare content ) the most advanced grammar I recalled from cambridge is non-polite past tense ta form ( intermediate level ) using i-adj and verbs only, whereas from Bunka, potential form, tara form, te-form + miru, and others.

Bunka does teach vocabulary, but forces you to use the grammar with the not so many vocabulary to strengthen grammar, their approach basically is to want students to be able to form proper sentences instinctively and speak sentences instinctively AS SOON AS they learn it. Most grammar will be taught at the Intermediate levels, PA1 is basically a revision of everything up till Int4, but you will be expected to be able to use everything learnt to speak, yes speak. Only new stuff will come into play from PA2 onwards.

No time to flip notes, no time to think, reaction time for speaking needed is faster than writing, taking a test.. Obviously if we can speak as fast as the Japanese, no errors in spoken grammar then, we have won more than half the battle.

Vocabulary, I think, are like the bricks in building a house, whereas grammar are like the structure, the things that hold the rooftop together, since once the structure is there, we can pretty much lay as much bricks we want, as fast as we want. The other extreme end I want to avoid is like my friend, who pretty much has a lot of vocabulary in his head ( knows more kanji that I do ), probably far more than I know at this point, but he couldn't string a simple sentence that was listed in the example, so much so that he became a *1 word master*

Summarizing, for those reading this, is if you want to save money, learn basics quickly, Bunka is something you can consider, but remember to buy a good dictionary once you hit the Intermediate levels since dimitri_can has highlighted the pitfalls of not having enough words to use in normal conversations.

For me, my ultimate goal like everyone who wants to learn Japanese, is to be have full Japanese linguistic capability:
read japanese newspapers, write an email or letter to a Japanese friend, watch anime, dramas, documentaries without translation, laugh at Japanese comedies, talk to someone in Japanese so well that an outsider will think we are Japanese.

In order to do that, I will be building my structure ( grammar ) fast, build them strong, and lay the bricks ( vocabulary ) quickly. JLPT is one of the stepping stones towards the goal.

Also, Bunka do have JLPT pre-course for level 2 and 3, but they may be full so you have to find out..

I am at a Mcdonalds daily in Jurong area, those who are interested are welcome to join if you need practising partners. I cannot say I speak well, but then you need 2 to dance since one cannot practise alone.
 
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azumangadaioh

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wow.... I applaud azumanga daioh's effort to improve. Haven't seen such a long post in quite some time.

It seems that you are learning at quite a fast pace. From Aug 08 to now Jun 09, and going on JLPT 2 already. Not to sound mean but how is your listening coming along? And what do you do for listening practice? Because i think listening is a skill that takes some time to form. :)

I admit that listening is something I am weak in, that said, will be making full use of PA1 level to catch up on my listening since it is 1 huge revision for ele till int4 levels, and maybe getting one of the sensei there to practise my conversation skills using individual lessons as speaking and listening goes hand in hand. Since once you can speak, effectively you can vocalize speech inside your head, or rather, talk to yourself, and attempt to anticipate what the other party wants to say before they open their mouth...
 

demid

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I agree with azumanga daioh's analogy of grammar being the structure and vocabulary being the bricks which together are necessary to build a house. But however i also think that grammar should come first before vocabulary, just as erecting the supporting structure of a house comes naturally before the laying of bricks.

It is true that vocab without grammar is useless and the same goes for the opposite. But given the fact that grammar is pretty much limited in number and very flexible in its usage whereas vocabulary is very very vast and easy to forget, i would say build up a good foundation of grammar first and worry about vocab later.

My 2 cents.
 

diggie

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JLPT1/2 books for sale

Sorry to interrupt with a notification for a sale:
books sold thanks!
 
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dimitri_can

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誠にありがとうございます。。。。もうすぐ5200ドルのレベルを超えます。
 
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