learning japanese

[nnskage]

慇懃無礼ーーいんぎんぶれい，in-gin-bu-re-i (i think i've posted the same term many months ago)

The first term my boss taught me; meaning hyprocritical politeness. It is to warn me not to appear too polite in my emails/reports as i may appear 'boot-licking' or hyprocritical. Not ez to strike a balance...haha. Coz we are taught to use formal keigo (敬語） in formal situation...n then now they dun wan me to be too polite????? i was stretching my head...till today, I'm still trying to find a balance being not too polite..haha.

N i beseech all japanese learners to throw in a word here n there as well. There's no way one can get to know all the vocab by him/herself. As long as u think a word/term is useful, pls post it here. Just a suggestion...haha....who object??

eee nice, i like to read such things. can learn more ^^v

Adding on, it's like when your boss needs help, you offer your help, and while you thought you're being polite and use keigo to say "Do you need help? I'll help you" but the nuance is "I'm doing you a great favour by helping you, ok! So feel grateful already!"

Or,

When you're dealing with a customer who couldnt understand your explanation, and you re-explained and added a お分かりになりましたか。 at the end, which, you thought you're exalting his position by using keigo, is actually very rude to the customer because you're telling him that you think he's stupid. (of course if you really meant it that way, say it with a smirk for the full effect)

 

[VH2006]

they tend to mix old japanese with modern japanese way of speaking, and viewers generally know what they are talking about because japanese students are required to study 古文 in school ^^

Thanks for the info!
By the way, is learning the old Japanese useful for foreigners like us?

 

[nnskage]

apart from being useful (ie, if you want to read/understand ancient poem collections like 百人一首) i guess partly it depends on your interest too? (it gets pretty dry at times though.. the grammar) To provide comic relief when you suddenly speak in old japanese to friends ^^;

in my opinion, it does help in the understanding (and learning) of japanese language, however it's better to concentrate on the "modern grammar stuff" before you want to try learning 古文, though you can pick up phrases along the way when you watch drama/read novels without understanding why and how it came about, the etymological aspects, etc

i'll just give some example as to how it helps in learning?
I don't know what is your level, so it might be a little difficult >_<

there is a grammatical pattern which makes use of:
-ve form (否定形) + んがため
which means it is a very strong wish to do something. and,
-ve form + んばかり
which means looks like ~

and it makes you wonder why does using a -ve form of a verb in this pattern means you WANT to do something, or looks like you're DOING something when logically (in modern sense) it should be the opposite.
車を持たんがために、必死で働いている (wanting to own a car, i work desperately)
出て行けと言わんばかりの顔をして (make a face that seem to say "get out!")

This is becaus what we know as -ve form is grouped together with the volitional form, and a -ve form + ん (which comes from む, to mean a strong wish to do something). The A line (-ve form; ikAnai, nomAnai etc) can mean a strong desire to do something, or not to do something. The O line (volitional form; ikOU, nomOU, etc) only represents a +ve intention to do something.

This, can be seen as a "remnant" of old japanese and the origin is not known unless you study it.

Also, why んがため and not んのため when you're talking about your intention?
eg
私のかばん (my bag)
私の国 (my country)

this is because right up till edo period, possessive is indicated with が and not の.
Hence now we have "relic phrases" like 我が国 which means 私の国, 我が社 to mean 私の会社, etc

(If you're wondering, to say phrases like お金がほしい prior to edo period (ie, as a subject case), が was not used but ゾ instead)

Interesting right ^^

 

[barbie274]

wah... luckily i decided not to join jcs afterall... how about yano? i am thinking of joining yano next year.

and btw, are you a native japanese? if not, then how long have you been studying japanese?! so cheem.... =.=

you mean you also have a personal tutor? my sister went yesterday. she said not bad. I'll be meeting her next week...

 

[barbie274]

wah... luckily i decided not to join jcs afterall... how about yano? i am thinking of joining yano next year.

and btw, are you a native japanese? if not, then how long have you been studying japanese?! so cheem.... =.=

Ikoma has also private, 12 hours for 720sgd. expensive^^ I think JCS is about 50sgd per hour.

 

[rokugo]

And then there's this issue about which school to join for japanese lesson..
I have a good friend who studies in JCS.
From what i know, they don't do much interactions in class (too big?) (he didn't speak very well, sad to say..)
The notes he has look like they're recycled from 50 years ago, with typo included(!) (they can't be bothered to change it?)
And horror of horrors, he is already going to advance class (i think) but i look at his homework.. they are in strings of... hiragana.. >_<; He couldnt link kanji he saw/come across to what he learnt in class. It is like you're in primary 6 and you're using hanyu pinyin to do your homework.. You can speak, but when you see it you can't read it coz your brain doesn't make any link to it. I don't know if that's the teaching method of JCS (not teaching kanji properly?) or not but it did give me the impression that it is heh!

(Or maybe it's just his class that's like this, i dont know :O)

I've already related the problem with JCS in my post #542, but there are still people here willing to queue up for long hours to register with the school, to get into a class that is packed like sardines, and with little or no time for useful interaction.
わけがわからん。

As for "not teaching kanji properly"... get this, the schools here DON'T EVEN TEACH kanji at all.
They think since the majority of Singaporeans are Chinese, students here are already familiar with kanji, or else learn it on their own (by rote memorisation I presume).

Which is nonsensical, because 1) not all JP learners are Chinese and 2) Chinese speakers may know the meaning and how to write kanji (though sometime get tripped up by the subtle differences, eg in the takekanmuri and furutori radicals), but have as much difficulty with the on/kun/nanori readings as non-Chinese students.

So end up many students here spend years studying japanese without ever learning the rules of on/kun readings and related stuff like rendaku, which would have made remembering/guessing the kanji readings so much more easier.
まいっか。

 

[alvinaloy]

So end up many students here spend years studying japanese without ever learning the rules of on/kun readings and related stuff like rendaku, which would have made remembering/guessing the kanji readings so much more easier.
まいっか。

Yep. Care to share what the rules are? I'm able to guess between the on/kun readings from experience but am at a total loss with new words. Apologies if you have posted it before

 

[faithsilence]

I was from JCS from 1997-2000 until Adv II. Sad to say at JCS they dun emphasis much on listening and speaking but more on reading and writing. I joined Yano in 2005 when the Yano couple was still there but they have moved back to Japan and seemingly not coming back. The school now is handled by 2 other younger native Jpn sensei. But now I find the classes too slack and hardly any discipline. I like it when Yano sensei (lady) was teaching, she was not only fun but strict as well. She wld always asked us to stop looking at the text book and answered her and always asked us to listen to the CD in the textbook.

Now with the new teachers(i was taught by the guy), there is none of this. Thus I stopped this year ard April (was at Upper Intermediate 4 iirc)

Thinking of going to Ikoma tho as I have a friend who's studying Jpn there full time..so few reviews from him not bad.

 

[ShougunX]

eee nice, i like to read such things. can learn more ^^v

Adding on, it's like when your boss needs help, you offer your help, and while you thought you're being polite and use keigo to say "Do you need help? I'll help you" but the nuance is "I'm doing you a great favour by helping you, ok! So feel grateful already!"

Or,

When you're dealing with a customer who couldnt understand your explanation, and you re-explained and added a お分かりになりましたか。 at the end, which, you thought you're exalting his position by using keigo, is actually very rude to the customer because you're telling him that you think he's stupid. (of course if you really meant it that way, say it with a smirk for the full effect)

oooo nnskage, u are good. how long have u been studyin japanese? haha. お分かりになりましたか was not often used in my environment (in fact,i have nvr heard it being used). The basic 分かりますかis more than sufficient, although i myself normally pause after an explanation and wait for a clarification rather than ask whether he/she understand. japanese language is kinda abstruct, one dun say everythin clearly and guessing intentions are veri much part of the language culture. As for 手伝いましょうかit's more directed to colleagues. I dunno whether it is my company or it's typically expected in japanese company, but if you are to help your boss, do it without asking for permission to help. Action speaks louder than words

 

[nnskage]

mm. quite long already.. (bleh!) but still very lousy ;_;

for the helping boss example, i actually meant to say it is wrong to use
お手伝いしてあげましょうか or 手伝ってあげましょうか or 手伝って差し上げましょうか
when you think that you're being very polite by attaching a お or by changing あげる to 差し上げる.
However that's not the case, if you already knew ^^;;

Instead, a simple お手伝いしましょうか/お手伝いいたしましょうか will be enough.
And an even simplier, neutral どうか、やらせてください would do too ^^v
(or if you're trying to be hyper-polite, やらせていただけないでしょうか...)

That said, let's say you're having a meal with prime minister koizumi and the shouyu is not within your reach and you want it. He's eating happily away at the other end of the table. How would you request 小泉首相 to pass the soy sauce to you? Remember that he's not just a person like your boss or senpai but a VERY ERAI person, prime minster of Japan (well... ex prime minster). Any wrong choice of words would deem to be rude toward his exalted status.

Make a guess (or make many guesses..)

 

[ShougunX]

hahhahha koizumi is famous for being anti-bureaucratic, but i think i'll use 'すみません。あの…醤油を渡せていただけないんでしょうか'--think it is more than enough. hahahaa. Shinzo Abe wud be a lit'diff though...haha

for boss, just use kudasai or itadakemasu. we dun go to the length of sashiagemasu, kudaimasu etc for ppl u know n work with. It's normally reserved for clients or, like wat u mentioned, erai ppl. But report writting wud be diff though. All the most formal polite forms came out. haha.

 

[ShougunX]

opps, i made a slight typo, no such thing as kudaimasu, it's kudasaimasu. n it takes so long to edit so forget it....

jellybeanx>>paiseh hahhaa. Not been visiting this thread often due to work n was surprised to find it going on strong. sry if i had typed anythin that confuses those that have just started learning.

 

[nnskage]

the correct way to say is..

「首相・・・。あの・・・。醤油・・・。」

:O

surprising right?

because requesting the prime minister to do something for you is rude and you have to say it in a way so that his action is done not by your request but through his own will. lol..

This was on a tv program and the host got many actors and well known people to suggest an answer and ALL were wrong, until a keigo expert revealed the correct answer and they just go "eeehhhhhhh???!!?!?"

We can try telling our government.. 小さいリー・・・。　あの・・・。消費税・・・。xD

 

[ShougunX]

haha ya that is indeed correct. it sounds strange but as wat i had mentioned earlier, in japanese, one is not expected to spell out everything. guessing is veri much in the language.

 

[heguhegu]

「总理・・・。あの・・・。面线不要辣・・・。」

 

[rokugo]

Yep. Care to share what the rules are? I'm able to guess between the on/kun readings from experience but am at a total loss with new words. Apologies if you have posted it before

Here`s a simple rule:
- No Kun reading starts with a "r"

Actually I shouldnt call them "rules", because there are many exceptions.
But there are certain features that help us remember the readings.
Eg 志 こころざし and 快い こころよい both contain the 心 radical.

For On readings, its useful to know what the jouyou kanji list is made of.
For learning purposes, we can classify kanji into 3 categories-

1) "simple" kanji - kanji that cannot be subdivided into simpler kanji.
Forms 10% of jouyou kanji list.
2) semantic compound kanji - formed from two or more simple kanji. The meaning of the entire kanji is found in one of its simple kanji components.
Forms 20% of jouyou kanji list.
3) phonetic compound kanji- formed from two or more simple kanji. The reading of the kanji is found in one of its components. The trick is to find which component is the phonetic. In most cases it is the tukuri. Forms 70% of jouyou kanji.
So provided you know the various components' main On readings, you have a good chance of correctly guessing the reading of an unknown kanji.


Another useful point to know:
- A major Japanese newspaper (cant remember which one) did a search of the kanjis it used for the past 10 years.
The results were interesting: 1000 kanjis from the jouyou kanji list, form 95 percent of kanjis used.
The remaining 945 kanjis form only 5 percent.
So if you want a more concise list for studying kanji for newspaper-level literacy, this 1000 kanji is a good guide.

 

[rokugo]

hahhahha koizumi is famous for being anti-bureaucratic, but i think i'll use 'すみません。あの…醤油を渡せていただけないんでしょうか'

Unfortunately youve made a typo there, which turns a simple request into an accusative/argumentative:
"You mean you won't pass me the soysauce?"

The ん makes a BIG difference

 

[ShougunX]

not exactly the ん is used to emphasize the passing of the 醤油 as in the request. Due to the usage of いただけ n でしょうか it softens the language structure. it is rather similar to あの…醤油が欲しいんですが渡せていただけませんか。but i do agree it doesn't sounds as polite as it wud have been without the ん.

i use to ponder over the usage of ん but it is seemingly very much used in the spoken language although it is almost nvr used in written form when during formal situations. ん is used both in situations of asking for a reason n in request. i had encountered this form being used in my office environment n from wat i know (i may be wrong in my interpretation of their usage), it is used to show a level of intimacy with ppl of higher status ranking.

 

[PingJun]

I have 1 enquiry regarding kanjis.

Whenever I see a Kanji [or a Chinese character] among Japanese words [Hira or Kata], I will always read them in Chinese.

How can I correct this?

 

[rokugo]

not exactly the ん is used to emphasize the passing of the 醤油 as in the request. Due to the usage of いただけ n でしょうか it softens the language structure. it is rather similar to あの…醤油が欲しいんですが渡せていただけませんか。but i do agree it doesn't sounds as polite as it wud have been without the ん.

i use to ponder over the usage of ん but it is seemingly very much used in the spoken language although it is almost nvr used in written form when during formal situations. ん is used both in situations of asking for a reason n in request. i had encountered this form being used in my office environment n from wat i know (i may be wrong in my interpretation of their usage), it is used to show a level of intimacy with ppl of higher status ranking.

There's nothin really mysterious about the usage of んだ　(short for のだ ) .
It is quite similar to わけだ or からだ or 意味だ ie they function as "explainers", they indicate that the first part of the statment (before the explainer) is the reason/meaning/cause for the last part of the statement.

And because its an explainer, のだ can be used to introduce (not so much to emphasise) a topic, to lead up to your actual request. Like you did with the example :
醤油が欲しいんですが、渡していただけませんか。　Because I want the soysauce、could you pass it to me please?

So when you use んだ with a negative statement, you are actually asking the other party to do the explaining, ie you are interrogating him.

Its easier to understand if I replace your original sentence with the other "explainer" terms:
醤油を渡していただけないんですか。
醤油を渡していただけないわけですか。
醤油を渡していただけないという意味ですか。

You also will notice that the above 3 sentences sound very awkward to start of a conversation. They are more likely to be used as a response to what the listener did or said to you earlier (or some other common experience shared by the both of you before you made the statment).

So just for example's sake, if Koizumi were to say to you when you first met on the dining table:
君の顔が嫌いだ。
"I don't like your face."

Then something like your original sentence would make a witty retort
じゃ、醤油を渡していただけないんですか。
"So does that mean you won't pass me the soysauce?"

But otherwise, putting a んだ　in a request would be a glaring mistake.