MoolahSense investing Thread

[clyclycly]

Interestingly, MoolahSense published some statistics. Somehow they are no longer saying that their default rates are just a mere 4%...


For loans made in 2018, the default rate is 28.46% (of which 14.82% are between 30 to 90 days due, 13.64% are more than 90 days due).

With an average rate of return of 9.9% from the 71.54% performing loans (100% less 28.46%), the average investor should be seeing an overall net loss from the 28.46% of the defaulted loans.

Wonder if default rates are higher now versus 31 Dec 2018. My portfolio has seen default rates jumping from 18 out of 60 companies (30% default rate, in-line with MoolahSense's published figures) in Dec 2018 to 23 out of 60 companies (38% default rate) currently.

Comparing to NPL rates at FS:

Rates of Return
Year of disbursement Lowest & highest rates (per annum)
Weighted average (per annum)
2017
7.65% - 25.86% 12.34%
2018
6.51% - 17.79% 9.32%
Non-Performing Loan Rates
Past 30 days but fewer than 90 days
Past 90 days
0.00% 0.08%
0.47% 0.00%



This just tells you how poor the screening standard at MS is. Yes MS pays higher interest usually I'm aware of that, but that doesnt justify a 28% default rate. I need them to pay me 28% on average on every loan for me to break even!

 

[microtek]

Man, if the expected default rate is 20-30%, since most p2p platforms only pay 10-18% interest, in the long run we definitely will lose. We should all pull out ...

Yep... which is why I decided to pull out after I managed to get my investment + interest back. The benefits just don't outweigh the risks.

 

[wira]

In any case p2p investment is still high risk so only
Put in money that you can afford to lose.

For me I only use part of my “speculative pool of money” to investment in this.
Capital match has so far given me 31% returns for period of 2 years. Not bad.

 

[sp1980]

I actually didnt join in to sue. I do agree morally I should - but the economics doesnt work out for me.

Legal fees estimate from MS is $13,410. The cost per $100 loan range from $44.7 (for 50% participation) to $22.35 (for 100% participation).

It's a bankruptcy filing so it really depends on how much can I expect to recover. Assuming 100% participation and 100% recovery (a big IF), ignoring late interests etc, roughly I'm betting $22.35 to make $100-22.35=$77.65. Approx 1:3.5 bet. And that assumes 100% recovery, no additional legal cost (which MS says is possible) and the process can take years (I have a personal case involving a $100k late payment from a business contact that is taking 2.5 years and counting ...)

I really want to punish these scammers, I really want to. But as I'm in the process of pulling out of MS I decided not to throw good money after bad money.

Good luck to all that decides to join in tho!

It is hard to get back the money already, but we have to kill 1 warn all..
Spend 50 bucks to punish the scammer, i feel it is worth for once or maybe twice.

 

[sp1980]

It is hard to get back the money already, but we have to kill 1 warn all..
Spend 50 bucks to punish the scammer, i feel it is worth for once or maybe twice.

There was an insufficient quorum to proceed with the bankruptcy application against the guarantors. A quorum is achieved by having greater than 50% by value of each issuer’s total outstanding position.

No debit for legal fees has been made to your MoolahSense account.

We will explore other appropriate measures in recovering the debt. All investors will continue to be kept updated via the investments page.


Majority give up to punish scammer.

 

[kenplicity]

There was an insufficient quorum to proceed with the bankruptcy application against the guarantors. A quorum is achieved by having greater than 50% by value of each issuer’s total outstanding position.

No debit for legal fees has been made to your MoolahSense account.

We will explore other appropriate measures in recovering the debt. All investors will continue to be kept updated via the investments page.


Majority give up to punish scammer.

I don't understand. Is it the only way? How abt those money collecter company?

 

[sp1980]

I don't understand. Is it the only way? How abt those money collecter company?

Legal debt collector have a lot of restriction to force the scammer pay. The last way is sue them.

 

[kenplicity]

Comparing to NPL rates at FS:

Rates of Return
Year of disbursement Lowest & highest rates (per annum)
Weighted average (per annum)
2017
7.65% - 25.86% 12.34%
2018
6.51% - 17.79% 9.32%
Non-Performing Loan Rates
Past 30 days but fewer than 90 days
Past 90 days
0.00% 0.08%
0.47% 0.00%



This just tells you how poor the screening standard at MS is. Yes MS pays higher interest usually I'm aware of that, but that doesnt justify a 28% default rate. I need them to pay me 28% on average on every loan for me to break even!

Imo. There are 2 ways to look at this thing, if one thinks p2p is worth saving and then rat **** must be punished to make the industry better. 2nd, like what you have mentioned, it is not worth good money to pursue this, then I forsee the whole p2p industry will go more rotten, ended in bad cycles of bad money and scammer. And eventually we should quit such invertment tool asap. I am quite dissatisfied with moolah sense, b/c what they did would not help this industry to grow, if scammer could go away so easily, eventually less money will be reinvested, I don't feel good for the future of p2p loan.

 

[wonghw12]

My advice: Don't bother trying the legal route at MoolahSense.

1. As mentioned by a few here, the costs probably outweigh the benefits.
2. There's no point suing a few to set them as an example to the rest. It is the platform's (MoolahSense) problem by not screening out those with no ability to repay.

More importantly, MoolahSense makes it really difficult for you to pursue the legal route, and I believe MoolahSense may even make a profit if investors insist to pursue the legal route. This is coming from my own experience.
a) MoolahSense does not put in much effort to contact all the lenders (sometimes, not even by email) when it comes to a vote for legal action - so how easy will it be to get your majority?
b) Even when a simple majority was achieved to take legal action, for example against BUDGET EVENT SOLUTIONS PTE. LTD (Note 1410)... guess what? MoolahSense came back and revised the estimates for legal costs from the original $4k-$8k estimated by its own legal counsel to $25,820. Wrote in to ask MoolahSense why the costs escalated so much... no answer was provided until my 3rd email when they said the legal costs involved 2 guarantors. In addition, MoolahSense stated there will be no claims filed for legal fees paid and I confirmed with them again - there were no previous legal cases which investors were compensated for their legal costs.

I smelled a lot of b/s so I proceeded to ask Funding Societies and Capital Match.
For Funding Societies: Legal costs are $7k-$9k, regardless of the number of guarantors. Legal costs are recovered first before recoveries for loans.
For Capital Match: Legal costs exceed $10k, regardless of the number of guarantors. Legal costs are recovered first before recoveries for loans. While the legal costs is higher than Funding Societies, Capital Match thus far has been footing the legal costs for investors. If Capital Match makes profits this way (e.g. in reality spending just $7k-$9k on legal costs but claiming $10k+ for legal recoveries), I think it is fair as they are footing the legal costs entirely.

Make your choice wisely if you decide to still invest in MoolahSense, or even join in the legal route at MoolahSense. Anyone who tries the legal route at MoolahSense should find out why are the legal costs higher and why there will be no recoveries for legal costs.

It will also be useful to talk to employees and ex-employees about MoolahSense. Read the part on "Cons" as reviewed by an ex-employee on glassdoor.
https://www.glassdoor.sg/Reviews/Employee-Review-MoolahSense-RVW22508004.htm

 

[bullshitregister]

Thanks for the comprehensive sharing wonghw12

Your experience in only getting a reply after multiple emails seems to be very common, and even then, the answer is never clear and transparent. Either the staff really don't know anything, or they have been briefed to be as difficult as possible...

 

[Supersian]

Kudos to that employee..a company without a standard procedures in things is dangerous.

 

[clyclycly]

1946 AA FOOSBALL STRIKERS PTE. LTD.
3/11/2019
The debt collector had conducted a site visit at the residence of the Guarantor(s). There was no one present on site. The Debt Collector had conducted a site visit at the Issuer's office. The address belongs to a corporate secretarial company. As part of our debt recovery strategy, we have appointed another debt collector to support us on our recovery effort.

READ: A paper company with a rented address. Did MS do their due diligence at all? No wonder it's yet another case of the issuer not even making the first payment (i.e. scammers)

 

[Simonlee1977]

Hi all,

Just wan to ask something.
Got my first FS default.
Payment supposed to be feb but now shows default.
Does it mesh’s there’s no chance of getting back the money?

Thanks in advance

 

[wonghw12]

We might have the same defaulting issuer - my first too.

So far, unlike MoolahSense, FS does provide timely info on why the issuers are late and what they plan to do. So I guess you can estimate your risk of not getting your money back.

Anyway, for my loan that is defaulting the latest update is this:

"The borrower has had 2 large projects fall through, resulting in financial difficulties, however they are still operating. The borrower is working on a proposal for restructuring their loans, when they present this we will negotiate and update investors. We should have some more information by 10 May"

 

[kenplicity]

We might have the same defaulting issuer - my first too.

So far, unlike MoolahSense, FS does provide timely info on why the issuers are late and what they plan to do. So I guess you can estimate your risk of not getting your money back.

Anyway, for my loan that is defaulting the latest update is this:

"The borrower has had 2 large projects fall through, resulting in financial difficulties, however they are still operating. The borrower is working on a proposal for restructuring their loans, when they present this we will negotiate and update investors. We should have some more information by 10 May"

That is my 2nd default on fs. However also the biggest one. Guess next course is legal action. All debtors might donate to share legal fee.

 

[Simonlee1977]

Yes. Same one

We might have the same defaulting issuer - my first too.

So far, unlike MoolahSense, FS does provide timely info on why the issuers are late and what they plan to do. So I guess you can estimate your risk of not getting your money back.

Anyway, for my loan that is defaulting the latest update is this:

"The borrower has had 2 large projects fall through, resulting in financial difficulties, however they are still operating. The borrower is working on a proposal for restructuring their loans, when they present this we will negotiate and update investors. We should have some more information by 10 May"

 

[sp1980]

I have 1 default loan in FS too. But the borrow had settle the January installment yesterday and has committed to paying the remaining balance by the end of May.
FS is really much much better than Moolah.

 

[das.gta]

its a fraud and all our investments will disappear soon

its a fraud and all our investments will disappear soon

 

[kenplicity]

I have 1 default loan in FS too. But the borrow had settle the January installment yesterday and has committed to paying the remaining balance by the end of May.
FS is really much much better than Moolah.

I agree that. FS loan has better quality over moolah. Still we got to control our risks ourselves.

 

[ceciltan]

Invest 4. 2 default. Total lost 4K over 2 yrs investing period. Completely waste of time. Typical interest is 10.1% and reits dividend can get 6% no issue.

Totally not worth the risks for an extra 4% return for P2P lending.