Please get Livewings off this website

[Orionz]

Well, MUIS is under the purview of a Minister, who is part of the government.
If you - a citizen - disagree with their opinion, by all means let them know of yours.

Besides, the Mufti of Singapore is always someone who attended years of Islamic school and has the paper qualifications that triumph any user who relies on Wikipedia.

The fact of the matter is that I've proven that said member made false statements that disparage Islam. As such, my opinion is that his account here be banned for good.

Still missing my point...

Look, I'm more than happy that the Mufti of Singapore is upholding the non-fundamentalist version of the religion. But even they are explicit in that they are only providing a view/opinion. I don't know why you keep insisting on their advisory as the final authority on what is a topic of debate even between Islamic sects.

There is no "fact" of the matter but rather opinions.

I respect your crusade against the discrimination of the Muslim community in this forum. But I feel this is just a tad too far. The said user simply expressed his experience and view on the matter. Just because you don't agree, doesn't mean he is spreading falsehoods.

Nevertheless, I believe the mod and admin is likely to again err on the side of caution. But i appeal to them to consider leniency in this case.

 

[kamsani0]

It is obvious that many here are up in arms against with @factuup

@factuup - buat bodoh dengan dorang, jangan layan.

Let mods, admin take care.

To the non-muslims - if you have to believe what the ex-muslim said. He's not an authority in such issue.

I second that this forum member @Livewings be banned from this forum permanently.

 

[IndianChief]

So what's the fake news? Even wiki says he married a 6 year old ( Aisha bint Abu Bakr) and consummated the marriage when she was nine?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wives_of_Muhammad

 

[factuup]

There is no "fact" of the matter but rather opinions.

There is a fact and it is that said member made this remark: "Also anyone who leaves the religion is supposed to be stoned to death according to the Quran."

I want you to show me those verses from the Quran.

Mods, don't close this thread until such verses are furnished.

 

[Orionz]

There is a fact and it is that said member made this remark: "Also anyone who leaves the religion is supposed to be stoned to death according to the Quran."

I want you to show me those verses from the Quran.

Mods, don't close this thread until such verses are furnished.

If you are taking offence in that one statement then make it clear. There is no need to bring up the debate of apostacy in islam (to be fair, of any religion) and then name dropping minister, government, mufti and so on as if they have the final authority on the issue.

Make it clear.
Which post and precisely which sentence is false and offensive.
Not linking a whole list of old posts, of which many are just opinions.

 

[factuup]

If you are taking offence in that one statement then make it clear. There is no need to bring up the debate of apostacy in islam (to be fair, of any religion) and then name dropping minister, government, mufti and so on as if they have the final authority on the issue.

Make it clear. What post and what sentence is false and offensive.
Not linking a whole list of posts, of which many are just opinions.

lol. mods, please close thread and take appropriate actions against @Livewings as this member has failed to furnish any verse to defend said member.

 

[eeLoyH]

Maybe the mods can answer this.

is there a reason why we have additional watcher to repeatedly patrol edmw to flag posts from 2020 and beyond?

We have a reporting limit daily in place to discourage uneccessary reporting

feedback forum is for raising other concerns.

but if ts keeps raising additional topics on a such a frequent basis that only means that he is circumventing the limit then why bother to even limit reporting?

everyone would abuse the feedback forum and goes back to sq 1 of don’t need reporting limits.

also we definitely don’t need an extra pseudo mod to repeatedly monitor forums

Replying to myself to add on

if the intention is to have direct feedback between mods and user to filter noise, then usingfeedback forum so often to report wouldn’t make sense.

this thread exemplifies that.

Mods also sometimes mention that there’s multiple reports on one post then that would signal how appropriate a post is.
But if it’s always that 1-2 people on different posts on the same topic, maybe the issue isn’t with post; so feedback forum wouldn't achieve this measurement.

 

[Reborn]

You believe Wiki?

What a joke!

So its actually not true?

 

[IndianChief]

So its actually not true?

He's trying to rewrite history by saying a fact is not a fact without any fact to support his claim and then try to get people who mention facts to be banned using his "fake" facts.

It's comical.. until you realise there are people like crathir who will most likely penalise livewings just because factup is offended and made a reportb even though livewings mentioned facts n factups entire defence is fake.

Rather sad state of affairs

 

[125xnoob]

 

[Intrinion]

Thread locked. We note the feedback from the thread starter as well as posts from other forum users and will look into them in due course.

Thank you.

 

[cranthir]

He's trying to rewrite history by saying a fact is not a fact without any fact to support his claim and then try to get people who mention facts to be banned using his "fake" facts.

It's comical.. until you realise there are people like crathir who will most likely penalise livewings just because factup is offended and made a reportb even though livewings mentioned facts n factups entire defence is fake.

Rather sad state of affairs

I think more evidence is needed to support how being an ex muslim means he should be banned
thanks for being my misspokeperson anyway

 

[factuup]

Dear Mr Vijay Anand aka @Dr.Vijay,

I refer to this thread of mine - https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/threads/please-get-livewings-off-this-website.6870797/ - where I furnished screenshots and links of posts from @Livewings where he disparaged Islam, Muslims, and the Prophet Muhammad. Two of the posts are as recent as this month whereas the others are included to show a pattern of such behaviour over the years.

The thread was closed by @Intrinion (who, in my PM with him said that his team will review the feedback) but was re-opened by @cranthir who, in reply to @IndianChief 's prediction that @cranthir would likely penalize @Livewings , concludes with:

I think more evidence is needed to support how being an ex muslim means he should be banned
thanks for being my misspokeperson anyway

1) I am perplexed with such a response as nowhere in my thread that I called for @Livewings to be banned just because he is an ex-Muslim. Kindly review if your moderators are fit to do their job.

2) As moderators are volunteers and unaffiliated with SPH Media Ltd, what is the official stance of the salaried staff of this site (either you or @Dragon) regarding this issue?

3) I urge you to take actions against @IndianChief too as he is vehement that what @Livewing said are facts. That is akin to making such disparaging remarks himself. Moreover, he accused me of making up a fake defence despite me having provided two proofs (see Proof 1 and Proof 2) in the very first post of the thread and a link to MUIS somewhere down there.




4) I have lodged a police report.

 

[factuup]

... and here is @Livewings insulting Christians:

https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/...ty-a-high-ses-religion.6796920/post-143363895

 

[Orionz]

Is there really a need to kick up a big fuss just because the mods/admins have not met your demand after, I don't know - 24 hours?

Opening a new thread addressing Vijay in his full name and title, referencing SPH, posting screenshots of your online police report... just to extort the response you demand at your terms. Almost blackmailing.

I don't think the HWZ team has committed to any form of response time SLA. I'm sure the user/post you reported will be dealt with, there is no need to exaggerate or signal aggression.

 

[cranthir]

obviously I was addressing IC misrepresentation. did I commit to not doing anything? we obviously have not finished reviewing yet.

your post keep emphasizing ex-Muslim

we are still reviewing the part "misinformation about Islam and ridiculing Muslims and the Prophet."

When I asked for more evidence, I was referring to evidence like the below

Quran​

The Quran mentions apostasy in many of its verses, expressing God's anger, impending punishment, and refusal to accept repentance towards those who have left the faith. Traditionally, the verses that are thought to "appear to justify coercion and severe punishment" for apostates (according to Dale F. Eickelman),[51] including the traditional capital punishment, are as follows:[52]

But those who reject Faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of Faith, – never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray.
— Quran 3:90

Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected Faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin.
— Quran 9:66

He who disbelieves in Allah after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief-- on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.
— Quran 16:106

Say, ... hindering ˹others˺ from the Path of Allah, rejecting Him, and expelling the worshippers from the Sacred Mosque is ˹a˺ greater ˹sin˺ in the sight of Allah.
— Quran 2:217

O believers! Whoever among you abandons their faith, Allah will replace them with others who love Him and are loved by Him. They will be humble with the believers but firm towards the disbelievers ...
— 5:54

Indeed, those who believed then disbelieved, then believed and again disbelieved—˹only˺ increasing in disbelief—Allah will neither forgive them nor guide them to the ˹Right˺ Way.
— 4:137

... whoever trades belief for disbelief has truly strayed from the Right Way.
— 2:108

You are not ˹there˺ to compel them ˹to believe˺, But whoever turns away, persisting in disbelief, then Allah will inflict upon them the major punishment.
— 88:22–24

But if they repent, perform prayer, and pay alms-tax, then they are your brothers in faith. This is how We make the revelations clear for people of knowledge. But if they break their oaths after making a pledge and attack your faith, then fight the champions of disbelief—who never honour their oaths—so perhaps they will desist.
— 9:11-12

They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them.
— Quran 4:89

to be continued..

 

[cranthir]

Other scholars have pointed out that there is no mention in the Quran of the need to force an apostate to return to Islam, nor any specific corporal punishment to apply to apostates in this world[53][54][55][Note 5]—let alone commands to kill apostates—either explicitly or implicitly;[57][58][59][60]

In fact, other verses emphasize mercy and lack of compulsion in belief:[61]

There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
— Quran 2:256

Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!
— Quran 18:29

And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers?
— Quran 10:99

Therefore do remind, for you are only a reminder. You are not a watcher over them.
— Quran 88:21–22

He said: "O my people! See ye if (it be that) I have a Clear Sign from my Lord, and that He hath sent Mercy unto me from His own presence, but that the Mercy hath been obscured from your sight? Shall we compel you to accept it when ye are averse to it?
— Quran 11:28

Indeed, those who believed then disbelieved, then believed and again disbelieved—˹only˺ increasing in disbelief—Allah will neither forgive them nor guide them to the ˹Right˺ Way.
— Quran 4:137

Other scholars have pointed out that there is no mention in the Quran of the need to force an apostate to return to Islam, nor any specific corporal punishment to apply to apostates in this world[53][54][55][Note 5]—let alone commands to kill apostates—either explicitly or implicitly;[57][58][59][60]

In fact, other verses emphasize mercy and lack of compulsion in belief:[61]

There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
— Quran 2:256

Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!
— Quran 18:29

And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers?
— Quran 10:99

Therefore do remind, for you are only a reminder. You are not a watcher over them.
— Quran 88:21–22

He said: "O my people! See ye if (it be that) I have a Clear Sign from my Lord, and that He hath sent Mercy unto me from His own presence, but that the Mercy hath been obscured from your sight? Shall we compel you to accept it when ye are averse to it?
— Quran 11:28

Indeed, those who believed then disbelieved, then believed and again disbelieved—˹only˺ increasing in disbelief—Allah will neither forgive them nor guide them to the ˹Right˺ Way.
— Quran 4:137

Hadith​

See also: Malik ibn Nuwayrah, Criticism of Hadith, Abdullah ibn Saad, and Ubayd-Allah ibn Jahsh
The classical shariah punishment for apostasy comes from Sahih ("authentic") Hadith rather than the Quran.[62][63] Writing in the Encyclopedia of Islam, Heffening holds that contrary to the Qur'an, "in traditions [i.e. hadith], there is little echo of these punishments in the next world... and instead, we have in many traditions a new element, the death penalty.[45]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

So yes the Quran did not advocate for stoning to death, but the evidence you provide is just a screenshot, not even a link. and you also did not quote the scripture.

In a forum, in any page there will be incorrect opinions, we learn from each other and other members can help to correct each other by sharing in the discussion thread itself. If he start a thread loudly proclaiming that punishment for apostasy is stoning to death according to the Quran, then yes he is actively spreading misinformation.

Sending a ton of quoted posts does not help us with our job, it only dilute your case. you only need to send us a few of the offending posts and the corresponding evidence for us to take action.

Calling names like "Ex-muslim" does not help your case also. You have given us feedback so the above is also my feedback for you to help us help you.

 

[cranthir]

Lastly, I want to share a message from the Prophet (PBUH).

In the Holy Quran, Allah makes it crystal-clear in the verse: “And We have not sent you, O Muhammad, except as a mercy to the worlds”.

The Prophet taught human beings to show mercy and respect one another, saying: “He who does not show mercy to others, will not be shown mercy.” In another story, he was requested by some people to ask Allah to punish the disbelievers, but the Prophet (PBUH), replied: “I have not been sent as one to curse, but as a mercy"

The Quran says that Prophet was sent as a mercy to the worlds. If we are to honor the Prophet (PBUH), it will be by adopting the sublime character of our Prophet and not through the emotions of anger and hate.

I like to ask you if your behavior of sending threatening message / police reports and casting hasty judgement on Mods without giving us more time to review is in line with Prophet's teaching.

https://www.omanobserver.om/article/21319/Opinion/prophet-muhammads-mercy-conveys-a-messagehttps://muhammad-the-merciful.com/prophetic-mercy/https://www.islamicity.org/8645/the-compassion-of-the-prophet-towards-those-who-abused-him/
And no the case is not closed, action taken on some of the more straightforward posts but we are still reviewing the rest.

 

[cranthir]

Thread locked for prevent side tracking the threads.

Those who made irrelevant comment pls take note as per this sticky
https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/...idelines-please-read-before-you-post.6818223/

 

[factuup]

Dear @cranthir,

This is my response to your replies in my "Livewings" thread, which is locked.

So yes the Quran did not advocate for stoning to death, but the evidence you provide is just a screenshot, not even a link. and you also did not quote the scripture.

1) The screenshot that I provided to counter Livewings' remarks contains the sentence: "Categorically, there is not a single verse in the Qur'an which prescribes an earthly punishment for apostasy". I believe that suffices for anyone to do their own Googling if they care.

2) Further down the thread, I included another evidence, which is a link to MUIS' webpage.

3) I do not think that I can find a scripture that says something along the lines of "no, contrary to the haters' remarks, Islam actually does not stone apostates".


Sending a ton of quoted posts does not help us with our job, it only dilute your case. you only need to send us a few of the offending posts and the corresponding evidence for us to take action.

I posted two recent posts of Livewings and five past posts (as evidences of such behaviour). I do not think that seven posts can be called "a ton". Had I posted just two, you guys may think that it is a one-off post.


Calling names like "Ex-muslim" does not help your case also

I mentioned it twice - once to let you guys know that I am aware of his background (lest you guys say "but he was a Muslim so he has a right to critique") and another as a proof to contradict his own claim that Muslims will be killed should they leave the religion. I mean, if he can leave the religion despite (I'm making an educated guess here) not having a Phd (as per his claim) and is still alive, then that proves that he was talking rubbish.

I'm glad that you guys have banned him.

Please consider doing the needful against IndianChief since he is adamant that Livewings were being factual although he did not explicitly say those "facts".