Profitable Group - is it credible?

[probono]

What about the Common Good ?

I think attempts to humiliate them publicly won't have much impact. The only people who can decide whether to pay are angmohs, and angmohs dun react in the same manner as Asians to this type of thing. If they are Chinese, then it's a different story.

Surely the objective here should be

1: to get paid
2: to stop others from being hurt in the same way

So even if there is no money, publicising it and reporting it would stop more money being taken from innocent potential investors. Or perhaps thats just my Ang Moh social conscience talking.

 

[pp-vic]

Hi all, today i go to PP office for clarification about my investment.
Steven Harris is not around, hence the one who handle my case is Simon Dawson.

a) Boron
Same old story as reported by Kelvintyy about the problem related to Dubai & they projected that the payment "maybe" make in mid-Jan2010. He is claiming that the amt on Boron ia about 6 million pound.

b) AAA Plot
He is saying that the directors are all in philippines and pushing very hard to sell part of the land.
They have divided the land into 3 parts. The whole pice of land projected to be sold at 97 million pound.
Due to credit crunch problem, they divided into the land for 3 pieces.
As reported in the client portal, now the first piece of land need to go through the final stage of “Quieting The Title”. The most important thing is that if i want to get my money back now, i need to pay them 15% commission. Is this true for those of you who want to sell the AAA plot back to profitable plot?

c) Concorde Village
The expected date for the land to get planning permisson is 2011.They are using the Bedfont as an example that green belt is able to get planning permission, so he see no reason why concorde village cant get the planning permission.

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2009-02-03c.252795.h

I asked him about selling the plot. He said that there were 30 to 40 buyers on the waiting list and i had to pay them 15% commission for helping me to find a buyer. His advice for me is to wait till next year after the market has picked up so that i am able to sell my plot at a higher price instead of the price now which is 5265 pounds.

After listening to his explanation, I am in a dilemna. I am not sure whether should I listen to him and hold on to the investment or I should just sell now and get some money back instead of losing all of it in the end.

 

[belledonne99]

I'm not sure SCT will work. Couldn't PG simply refuse to be engaged in any settlement? It's not as if there is a case of dispute. There is no dispute, the company simply cannot pay the legions of debtors. Only the ones inflicting the most pain will get paid.

I disagree that there is no dispute. It's clear. I also disagree that the company cannot pay (it's our assumption & Profitable Group's assertion!). For Boron, if it is indeed delivered to a Dubai buyer, Profitable can use these receivables as collateral. That's just one way of getting the money. I am sure they are smart enough to find other means.

Finally, the one who can inflict the most pain is the Singapore Court!

 

[joyjoyhope]

What I am trying to say is find out whether the identified company is solvent or not before spending time and money going SCT. If company insolvent, you get nothing if judgement in is your favour.

henry, thanks for providing us with this advice. IMHO, Im not sure if finding out if the company is insolvent or not will help us to get our money. Yes if the company is insolvent, we may lose our money even if in court, judgement is in our favour. On the other hand, if we hesitate with legal action because we do find out that company is insolvent, then the matter will probably drag and the company will continue to delay payment. For many of us, the idea is to create as much pressure as we can, from as many channels as possible, to make the company pay up.

 

[redkop74]

Dear All,

My lawyer has sent a Demand Letter yesterday. However my lawyer advised they did may not even bother to reply. My question to my lawyer : If PP do not reply, what that does they have a Defence?". He replied that it does not mean they have a Defence. In fact, PP has no case at all. I have also lodged a report with CAD today.

My question here is: Does anyone trust PP that their delay is because of the Philippines site and that they will pay us once that issued is resolved?"

I also got the same reason from Simon Dawson and Steven Harris. As much as I hope this reason is genuine, the thought of hanging in the mid-air is really not comfortable.

In any case, PP is unable to give us a concrete date for payments. We have no choice but to find avenues to recover our payment. Seriously, I do not know if SCT can take on the case.

Belledonne, can you send me a pte msg on to advise me on filing the case with SCT?

As for Concorde Village, Simon also advised that planning permission likely to be in 2011.

However I still am uncomfortable on the Trust Fund. Mr. Chandra from PP called me yesterday. He wanted to arrange a meeting with me as he wanted to provide a clearer overview of how the Trust is all about.

I am still considering if I should meet him up.

 

[henrylbh]

Dear All,

My lawyer has sent a Demand Letter yesterday. However my lawyer advised they did may not even bother to reply. My question to my lawyer : If PP do not reply, what that does they have a Defence?". He replied that it does not mean they have a Defence. In fact, PP has no case at all. I have also lodged a report with CAD today.

My question here is: Does anyone trust PP that their delay is because of the Philippines site and that they will pay us once that issued is resolved?"

I also got the same reason from Simon Dawson and Steven Harris. As much as I hope this reason is genuine, the thought of hanging in the mid-air is really not comfortable.

In any case, PP is unable to give us a concrete date for payments. We have no choice but to find avenues to recover our payment. Seriously, I do not know if SCT can take on the case.

Belledonne, can you send me a pte msg on to advise me on filing the case with SCT?

As for Concorde Village, Simon also advised that planning permission likely to be in 2011.

However I still am uncomfortable on the Trust Fund. Mr. Chandra from PP called me yesterday. He wanted to arrange a meeting with me as he wanted to provide a clearer overview of how the Trust is all about.

I am still considering if I should meet him up.

Since you got lawyer to send demand letter why dont you ask your lawyer to go all the way to obtain writ or seizure and sale. Whatever assets in their office will be tagged for sale and that may be more effective. I am sure they got nice office with nice assets for lelong.

 

[babylontrader]

Hi all, today i go to PP office for clarification about my investment.
Steven Harris is not around, hence the one who handle my case is Simon Dawson.

a) Boron
Same old story as reported by Kelvintyy about the problem related to Dubai & they projected that the payment "maybe" make in mid-Jan2010. He is claiming that the amt on Boron ia about 6 million pound.

b) AAA Plot
He is saying that the directors are all in philippines and pushing very hard to sell part of the land.
They have divided the land into 3 parts. The whole pice of land projected to be sold at 97 million pound.
Due to credit crunch problem, they divided into the land for 3 pieces.
As reported in the client portal, now the first piece of land need to go through the final stage of “Quieting The Title”. The most important thing is that if i want to get my money back now, i need to pay them 15% commission. Is this true for those of you who want to sell the AAA plot back to profitable plot?

c) Concorde Village
The expected date for the land to get planning permisson is 2011.They are using the Bedfont as an example that green belt is able to get planning permission, so he see no reason why concorde village cant get the planning permission.

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2009-02-03c.252795.h

I asked him about selling the plot. He said that there were 30 to 40 buyers on the waiting list and i had to pay them 15% commission for helping me to find a buyer. His advice for me is to wait till next year after the market has picked up so that i am able to sell my plot at a higher price instead of the price now which is 5265 pounds.

After listening to his explanation, I am in a dilemna. I am not sure whether should I listen to him and hold on to the investment or I should just sell now and get some money back instead of losing all of it in the end.

Hi PP Vic & all,
do u think its possible to request PG management to write an official statement or letter of explanation of the above in details to all investors with delayed payout? they wld also have to attached some form of proof or evidence of the above dealings..

tks & regards,
babylontrader

 

[probono]

Get it in writing

a) Boron
Same old story as reported by Kelvintyy about the problem related to Dubai & they projected that the payment "maybe" make in mid-Jan2010. He is claiming that the amt on Boron ia about 6 million pound..

Get it in writing and get the name of the end customer.

b) AAA Plot
He is saying that the directors are all in philippines and pushing very hard to sell part of the land.
They have divided the land into 3 parts. The whole piece of land projected to be sold at 97 million pound.

Its all been "projections". I project that one day Singapore might win the world cup. Not likely in the forseeable future though. Ask them to name one Profitable Group land site that has converted ever. Get it in writing

The most important thing is that if i want to get my money back now, i need to pay them 15% commission. Is this true for those of you who want to sell the AAA plot back to profitable plot?

15% was certainly true for the land banking plots. 85% of something now might be better than 100% of nothing later.

c) Concorde Village
The expected date for the land to get planning permisson is 2011.They are using the Bedfont as an example that green belt is able to get planning permission, so he see no reason why concorde village cant get the planning permission.

As for Concorde Village, Simon also advised that planning permission likely to be in 2011.

Expected based on what ? Even their own consultant says they wont even apply for 4 years. (thats apply not get). And council says any application has no chance of happening under the current planning policy.

See news article "Is 'concorde village' a real opportunity?"

"However, following an investigation by the Chronicle into concerns from investors and neighbours of the site, Hounslow Council has confirmed no such application has been received, while Profitable's UK communications consultants, Chelgate, admitted this week that the claims were untrue.
Mike Hardware, executive vice-president of Chelgate, said: "We know that's not true. I don't know why that's there because the council has not received an application and we are not intending to submit one in the near future."

Chelgate is leading a consultation into proposed development of the former Feltham gravel pits off Chertsey Road but Mr Hardware admitted it would be at least four years before a planning application is even lodged with Hounslow Council.

A spokeswoman for Hounslow Council said: "The site does not have planning permission. We have been in contact with the planning consultants to reiterate that any proposal for redevelopment of this site for residential or mixed used purposes, under current policy, would not be supported by the Council. We have asked that this is relayed to any marketing company that the landowners may be using"

I asked him about selling the plot. He said that there were 30 to 40 buyers on the waiting list and i had to pay them 15% commission for helping me to find a buyer. His advice for me is to wait till next year after the market has picked up so that i am able to sell my plot at a higher price instead of the price now which is 5265 pounds.

The advertised price last year was 8000 pounds. If they have such a waiting list why is it hard to find a buyer and why is the price so low now ?

Perhaps because of this freedom of information request

"It should be noted that a planning application for this site
has not been submitted to the Council. Given that the Council has
evidence that it can meet its development needs (for both housing and
commercial/ industrial uses) for the foreseeable future and the housing
targets set out in the London Plan (which have been established on this
basis) by developing existing urban land that is not designated as Green
Belt or open space, it is very unlikely that planning permission would
be given for development on this site.

We do not anticipate the need to make any exception to
this policy to accommodate the borough's expected growth."

After listening to his explanation, I am in a dilemna. I am not sure whether should I listen to him and hold on to the investment or I should just sell now and get some money back instead of losing all of it in the end.

I think you already know the answer to that.
Whatever you decide Get it in writing

 

[Cheap&Gd]

I didn't know PG said they cannot pay That will be the last thing they will tell anyone. If out of 100 investors due for payment, they have only funds to pay only ten. Who will they pay? You do not want to be No. 11.

Given this scenario, I do not know if you will want all 99 other investors to know that PG cannot pay as well & come knocking on the doors. I think we have passed this stage though. 200 investors are now hounding them (incldg those whose products have not matured). Also given the report in the New Paper as well as internet forums, I think there is enough awareness now about the company.

There is a lack of facts. Investors have to choose between
(i) Believing what PG tells them
(ii) Assuming the worst

I have never seen/heard/read a single thing claimed by PG that is real before. So, if they still owe me money, I do not want to hear any explanation from them& will proceed to take action. However, I'm not sure legal action is the best means to recover the money.

Personally, I don't care if the company closes down if I cannot get my money. However, if legal action can lead to them being jammed from receiving money (such as freezing of personal &/or company bank accounts), I might consider. The real question to ask is how much will I have to spend? I think a court case can easily cost more than $20k if the other party choses to defend it.

 

[belledonne99]

Taking Profitable Group to Court (SCT)

Redkop74, I have sent you a private message as requested. You may need to refer to my previous posts too.

Probono, I agree with you that we should press Profitable Group to release the end customer identity in Dubai. Profitable Group has no rights to maintain that this is confidential when they can't even pay us?!?! In fact, they should release the info to calm investors! Unless of cos, this end customer does not even exist, and this has big big implication...it will be considered cheating...Because of that, I don't think the managers or directors will dare to issue it in writing. Only the Singapore authorities can force them to comply.

 

[chubbytubby]

Hope this helps

Hi all, today i go to PP office for clarification about my investment.
Steven Harris is not around, hence the one who handle my case is Simon Dawson.

a) Boron
Same old story as reported by Kelvintyy about the problem related to Dubai & they projected that the payment "maybe" make in mid-Jan2010. He is claiming that the amt on Boron ia about 6 million pound.

b) AAA Plot
He is saying that the directors are all in philippines and pushing very hard to sell part of the land.
They have divided the land into 3 parts. The whole pice of land projected to be sold at 97 million pound.
Due to credit crunch problem, they divided into the land for 3 pieces.
As reported in the client portal, now the first piece of land need to go through the final stage of “Quieting The Title”. The most important thing is that if i want to get my money back now, i need to pay them 15% commission. Is this true for those of you who want to sell the AAA plot back to profitable plot?

c) Concorde Village
The expected date for the land to get planning permisson is 2011.They are using the Bedfont as an example that green belt is able to get planning permission, so he see no reason why concorde village cant get the planning permission.

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2009-02-03c.252795.h


I asked him about selling the plot. He said that there were 30 to 40 buyers on the waiting list and i had to pay them 15% commission for helping me to find a buyer. His advice for me is to wait till next year after the market has picked up so that i am able to sell my plot at a higher price instead of the price now which is 5265 pounds.

After listening to his explanation, I am in a dilemna. I am not sure whether should I listen to him and hold on to the investment or I should just sell now and get some money back instead of losing all of it in the end.

Hi, pp-vic,

AAA

Presumably, you have served them notice of liquidating your AAA plot? If upon maturity of your plot, you exercised your option to liquidate, then why are you asked to pay a commission to sell? It is not as though you are liquidating your investment prematurely.

Concorde Village

As probono pointed out, the price for Concorde Village was listed as GBP8000 last year. If you decide to sell your Concorde Village plot(s) now, shouldn't the selling price be GBP8000?

If you do decide to ask Profitable to sell your Concorde Village plots, as far as I know, yes, you will have to pay a sale commission of 15%. I also understand that there is an Extended Warranty feature. Find out if you purchased this with your Concorde Village plots. If you had, the 15% commission is based on the PROFIT you make from the sale, and not on the selling price.

So, if you bought your plot at GBP5625, and sold it at GBP8000, you would have made a "profit" of GBP2375. 15% commission on that profit would cost you GBP356. Thus, your net gain is GBP2375 less GBP356 = GBP2019.

Otherwise, if you sold your plot for the same GBP8000, 15% on this will cost you GBP1200 instead. After deducting commission, you are left with GBP6800. Assuming your original price is GBP5625, then your net gain in this case is GBP6800 less GBP5625 = GBP1175.

Of course, you could save yourself from paying commission altogether if you sell your Concorde Village plot(s) on your own.

The investment you are agonising whether to hold on to is presumably, Concorde Village? Your judgement call really. All of us have different financial objectives, risk tolerance, and timeline. Are you comfortable with a timeline (expected, but by no means guranteed) of 2010? Are you comfortable with this company? In the worst case scenario, if you have to write off the investment, can you afford to?

Finally, ask yourself another question. If you (succeed to) sell your Concorde Village plot(s), is a net gain of either GBP2019 or GBP1175 per plot, so bad?

 

[chubbytubby]

Hi pp-vic,

Earlier, I asked if you're comfortable with a timeline (expected, but by no means guaranteed) of 2010? The timeline you need consider should instead be 2011, as I understand you were told planning permission is expected by then.

Another point, were you in fact told there are 30-40 people on their buyer list for Concorde Village? It will be comforting if this is in fact true. That means there is still a secondary market. Could you confirm this with them?

Is that list, a list of ready buyers, or a waiting list of sellers?

 

[chubbytubby]

Hope this helps

Hi pp-vic,

Earlier, I asked if you're comfortable with a timeline (expected, but by no means guaranteed) of 2010? The timeline you need consider should instead be 2011, as I understand you were told planning permission is expected by then.

Another point, were you in fact told there are 30-40 people on their buyer list for Concorde Village? It will be comforting if this is in fact true. That means there is still a secondary market. Could you confirm this with them?

Is that list, a list of ready buyers, or a waiting list of sellers?

 

[pp-vic]

Hi chubbytubby,
What I understand from Simon regarding waiting list is waiting list of sellers.

Actually, I don really need the money & I am prepare to wait for years. What trouble me is the way they handle the Boron issue. It gave no sense of security with my investment. Anyway, I had brought "Extended Warranty" during the time when I buy Concode Village.

Below are the terms:
1. This is designed to reduce the risk as well as allow the client the flexibility of using our re-sale service with complete peace of mind knowing that your capital will be protected at all times.

2. Under the extended warranty, Profitable Plots guarantees to sell the land for clients within a specified period.

3. The site neeed not to be sold out. However, the client has to own the land for at least 5 years prior ro the re-sale. This allows some appreciation in the value of land which then allows us to market the land at a higher price thanwhich the client paid for the land.

4. At that time the land is alos 5 years closer to planning permission thus justifyin the higher asking price. Profitable Plots will not sell the land for less than te client has paid thus protecting the capital.

5. Profitable Plots will take a 15% commission of the profit of the sale.

6. The client will receive the fund from the re-sale within 90 days of the sale.

7. The client will also be assured of a guranteed fast track to any other site they choose.

As we can see in the clauses, i am worried that i might not get my money back after 90 days!

Regarding the AAA, I will write email to Simon about the 15% comission thing.

 

[probono]

Tomorrow never comes for Profitable Group

Hi, pp-vic,
Concorde Village
The investment you are agonising whether to hold on to is presumably, Concorde Village? Your judgement call really. All of us have different financial objectives, risk tolerance, and timeline. Are you comfortable with a timeline (expected, but by no means guaranteed) of 2010?

Expected ? By who ?? Nobody outside of Profitable associated companies is saying this has any chance of happening. Profitables own PR company stated in the UK press even the application wont happen in less than 4 years. If you look on the internet all the way back to 2006 you will find quotes from Profitable Salespeople and land plot enthusiasts saying its almost certain to happen in the next two years. The problem is that year two never comes.

Your question should be how am I qualified to judge this a bad investment ? My question to you would be how are they qualified to judge it to be good investment ? The black box magic money system here is a group of comission earning people with unverifiable opinions, and some cheap land with very low prospects for planning approval.

Finally, ask yourself another question. If you (succeed to) sell your Concorde Village plot(s), is a net gain of either GBP2019 or GBP1175 per plot, so bad?

Your math is good but it leaves out the currency rates. The plots are sold priced in UK pounds (very strange given that the company is in Singapore).

From 2006 to end 2007 it was around S$ 3 to 1 UKP. In 2008 the UKP dropped over the year to around 2.3 where it is stuck now as people bailed out of UK investments. Somewhere in 2008 Profitable repriced the plots up presumably so they could get around the same amount of Sing $ when they sold them.

So when you bought your 5625 UKP plot it cost you around S$16,900.
If you can sell your 8000 UKP plot it will generate around S$ 18,300.
If you have to sell at 5625 UKP it only generates around S$ 12800

The profit in UKP is around 42%. In Singapore $ its around 9%.
If they take their 15% commission on the UKP side you may have a loss.

Me I would get out anyway as I think there is no chance of planning permission and the whole plot resale market would collapse if Profitable Group should fail for any reason.

 

[belledonne99]

I agree with Probono...If you have an investment that is not liquid eg. land investment, you have to make sure you leave the money in the hands of a well-trusted party. If you can't trust that party fully, don't even get into such an investment. If you are already in it, pull out as soon as you can.

Look at Boron - a short term (6 month), straightforward transaction of industrial lubricant between a buyer and a supplier; and, I would say, the most conservative among all the "wonderful" products sold by Profitable Group. It is already in such a mess, how else you want me to say about other products from them?

 

[probono]

EntegrOS Smart Client ESPN advert

Profitable Group still advertising on ESPN under the strategic global products tagline. (strategic global investments not mentioned)

So they still have some money to spend on adverts and TV time. Will this be the next investment product to put your dollars in ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlmf-xQdWPM

 

[Adeius]

Yes, ignore it.

Hi Drav03, the reason why I ignore that piece of **** is because I know it will distract this thread from serious business. We certainly don't just whine here in this thread. Many have reported to CAD.

May I request that my reply be the last one to the person you guys can't stand, so that we can focus on serious stuff? I won't reply to him/her either, after this post. Just ignore him/her. Who knows, he/she could be from PG, trying to distract us.

Absolutely agreed!

 

[belledonne99]

Actions Against Profitable Group

SPRING.
Good news, SPRING replied today, saying that they will look into this case immediately and give me a reply by this week. <...> I feel Profitable Group's is not deserving of their SQA title. Let's see how our dear Mr Nordmann can defend his case. I don't think he can bulldoze over singapore authorities.

Small Claim Tribunal SCT
Trying to sort out the papers required today. <...>

SPRING.
I was contacted by SPRING who said they'd look into the case immediately, they need not wait till the 1.5 years review mark. SPRING also explained the difference between Singapore Quality Class Award and Certification. 'Award' is more stringent. What Profitable Group has is the Certification. SPRING showed concerns over the practice by Profitable Group.

Small Claims Tribunal.
The consultation with the Registrar is next week. Profitable Group is to send a Director who can decide whether to pay or not to attend the session. If they chose to ignore the court order, the court may issue orders against them. This is clearly stated in the letter which Profitable Group should have received last Thurs.

 

[probono]

Boron ESPN Advert and Dubai contract

If anyone needs to refer to it here is the ESPN Profitable Group Boron advert.

There are two references to a problem Boron contract in Dubai in this thread, and other references to contracts in countries starting with "A"

One Profitable source quoted says the Dubai contract value is 6 Million UKP and another says it is $10 Million. That could be easily explained by a currency difference between UKP and US$ or it could indicate the contract does not actually exist. I would think given the concerns expressed that Profitable Group would be keen to clarify that point.

It is a reasonable request for Profitable Group to provide clarification to investors on thse points.

I would suggest that if no reasonable evidence of the Dubai or other Boron contracts can be produced then there might be reasonable grounds to refer to the authorities on suspicion of fraud, or for making a false or misleading representation.