Red Wing shoe Thread

[stormcontrol]

im not a pro but i believe the problem lies in the type of cork that manufacturers use in the soles. In the past, cork sheets were used which u can see in the pic below. Once it becomes moulded to your foot shape, the comfort of the inner/middle sole lasts much longer.

goodyear welt is a process of manufacturing cork into the soles. I believe it became popular cos it was less time consuming which ultimately saved time and money. If u watch from 1 min and 42 sec in the video below, u can see what a goodyear welt process is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOJBOOOLK-A

The shoe/boot is placed underneath a machine that dispenses some gummy substance which acts as a substitute to cork sheets. The maker takes the shoe out and spreads the substance over the entire sole. That substance does not last as long as cork sheets.

To answer your question, the "best" in my opinion are those that don't use goodyear welt (duh!). But of course, it might take years and years of deterioration before the user can tell the difference between a goodyear welt and a non-goodyear welt. I think its safe to assume that handmade shoes do not use goodyear welt. But it is important for the buyer to check, double check and triple check

let me know if that helps....

So the issue is more the use of a cork spread bottom filler rather than a traditional cork sheet?

My understanding dabbling in dress shoes is that GY construction is the superior construction method vs Blake/rapid and cement. Hence I was curious as to what requirements of boots would turn that conventional wisom on its head. Thanks for sharing shalomp!

Sent from stormy seas using GAGT

 

[Shalomp]

So the issue is more the use of a cork spread bottom filler rather than a traditional cork sheet?

My understanding dabbling in dress shoes is that GY construction is the superior construction method vs Blake/rapid and cement. Hence I was curious as to what requirements of boots would turn that conventional wisom on its head. Thanks for sharing shalomp!

Sent from stormy seas using GAGT

ok edited my earlier post about goodyear welt.

yes if im not wrong, one of the main reasons that makes goodyear welt inferior is that cork substitute. there might be other reasons but only a real shoe enthusiast would know.

hmmm this is the first time im hearing of blake and cement. will need to educate myself more on that

 

[stonecold996]

ok edited my earlier post about goodyear welt.

yes if im not wrong, one of the main reasons that makes goodyear welt inferior is that cork substitute. there might be other reasons but only a real shoe enthusiast would know.

hmmm this is the first time im hearing of blake and cement. will need to educate myself more on that

yeah I believe GY Welt is the superior welting method and has been the case for many years, just that maybe RW uses "newer alternatives" A.K.A cheaper substitutes for some of the welting materials.

 

[eyz]

actually that gummy substance is still cork.

this guy documented his DIY resoling of his RW.

http://www.reddit.com/r/DIY/comments/2pj0kq/resoling_an_old_pair_of_redwing_8173s_at_home/

he actually grind the cork and mix it with glue to use as the inlay.

i think the purpose of the cork inlay is to give more comfort, and it is the mouldable charateristic of the gluey mashed cork that give it the ability to take the shape of the foot.

just my guess.

 

[Shalomp]

yeah I believe GY Welt is the superior welting method and has been the case for many years, just that maybe RW uses "newer alternatives" A.K.A cheaper substitutes for some of the welting materials.

It is the superior method only if u compare it with blake and cementing.

Natural storm welt is supposed to be better than goodyear. From the article below, "Storm welt construction uses a welt similar to that of a goodyear constructed boot but wider. The extra width allows the welt to be bent upwards, creating a seal around the junction between the upper and the mid-sole. Aptly named, the Storm welt is generally considered to offer greater moisture protection than a Goodyear welt."


http://www.rawrdenim.com/2014/04/know-welts-common-boot-welts/


But of course, its not like we live in a country that floods regularly

 

[Shalomp]

hmmm made an interesting find. There is another welt method that makes the shoe even more waterproof than goodyear called norwegian welt and it is used in a redwing 1907. Always wondered about that extra circumference of stitching!

Calling it a "double goodyear welt", red wing amsterdam website says norwegian welt provides more strength to the sole and makes the shoe sturdier.

U can see the double stitching around the circumference of a 1907 below.

Only a single round of stitching in the redwing 875:

 

[Shalomp]

actually that gummy substance is still cork.

this guy documented his DIY resoling of his RW.

http://www.reddit.com/r/DIY/comments/2pj0kq/resoling_an_old_pair_of_redwing_8173s_at_home/

he actually grind the cork and mix it with glue to use as the inlay.

i think the purpose of the cork inlay is to give more comfort, and it is the mouldable charateristic of the gluey mashed cork that give it the ability to take the shape of the foot.

just my guess.

ok i think this should explain it

There's many different names for it but this website below calls it cork paste. I saw some websites call it cork amalgamate but whatever name they give, it is cheaper than sheet cork.

U can visit the website here and watch their video on how they resole a shoe using sheet cork.


http://www.artigianoteca.it/recrafting-goodyear/?lang=en


yup the cork whether sheet or non-sheet is inserted for comfort. im guessing non-sheet cork gets moulded faster to the user's foot compared to sheet cork considering how soft it appears, but that probably comes at a price as i read somewhere before that it breaks down faster unlike sheet cork which is more durable

 

[likehotbutter]

i think the purpose of the cork inlay is to give more comfort, and it is the mouldable charateristic of the gluey mashed cork that give it the ability to take the shape of the foot.

just my guess.

The sole purpose of the cork inlay is because of the use of fabric Gemming in GY construction. Any other claims are just pure marketing lol.

GY is the industralisation of the Handwelt process. So instead of having an artisan carve out the holdfast from a leather midsole. They just glue a fabric strip for cost and time savings. Let the pictures do the talking hehe.

Goodyear leather insole with Gemming (white fabric strip on the perimeter). Note the structural gap in the middle from the raised edge of the Gemming. That has to be filled with something, solid Cork sheet (provides more support) or the cheaper paste.

Handwelted sole. Note how there is no gap at all.

So the issue is more the use of a cork spread bottom filler rather than a traditional cork sheet?

My understanding dabbling in dress shoes is that GY construction is the superior construction method vs Blake/rapid and cement. Hence I was curious as to what requirements of boots would turn that conventional wisom on its head. Thanks for sharing shalomp!

GY welt is not superior Blake Rapid. They are both different types of constructions with their own merits.

As noted above. Goodyear has a cork paste layer that may deteriorate and the glued gemming may fail. Note that all that stitching still relies on the glue of the gemming fabric not failing over time lol.

Blake Rapid is a fully stitched construction method. Brands like Maganni's blake stitch uses a damm solid and thick leather insole to outsole connection that is much more solid than the usual goodyear gemming method. Equally waterproof. And note...no need for a cork layer lol.

Only prob is the stitch aloft in sockliner that some people hate

Do note. Blake Rapid is not Blake also.

hmmm made an interesting find. There is another welt method that makes the shoe even more waterproof than goodyear called norwegian welt and it is used in a redwing 1907. Always wondered about that extra circumference of stitching!

Wait till you see Veldtschoen (American Stitch Down) or Norvegese lol

 

[eyz]

great information you guys have over here.

butter, after reading shalom's posts, i went to google and actually read some posts that you posted in a Dr. Marten thread last year on the cost cutting cork filler.

i am also especially interested in the Indo handwelt shoes that you mentioned.

Would you mind sharing how cam we get our hands on those shoes?

 

[stormcontrol]

Oooh. Learnt alot from Butter's post, thank you.

Found this link yesterday night which makes for fascinating reading on shoe construction: http://www.reddit.com/r/goodyearwelt/comments/23giwq/discussion_construction_methods_and_their/

Sent from stormy seas using GAGT

 

[Shalomp]

Wait till you see Veldtschoen (American Stitch Down) or Norvegese lol

Wow my head hurts from all the info lol!

All said and done, does this mean hand welt is better than good year welt? I notice some manufacturers proudly tout their stuff as hand welt.

Isn't norvegese the same as Norwegian welt? Interchangeable names?

 

[likehotbutter]

Cheers all. Always glad to share info

great information you guys have over here.

butter, after reading shalom's posts, i went to google and actually read some posts that you posted in a Dr. Marten thread last year on the cost cutting cork filler.

i am also especially interested in the Indo handwelt shoes that you mentioned.

Would you mind sharing how cam we get our hands on those shoes?

Doc Martens really cut cost eh lol. Felt Fibre filler instead of a cork derivative

Try adding them on BBM or Email? Its also cheaper to remit them money instead of paying in USD.

Those were my first foray into indo boots though. Santalum's finishing is pretty rough and I have relegated them to beater boots that I use for trekking. They use a Veldt and a bellows tongue after all so it's hardwearing, just that the stitches are aloft in the sole, so lifespan is reduced as the stitch is exposed to the ground.

Check out Sagara also. That fella's work is superb and I think he is more or less regarded as the top cordwainer/bootmaker in Indo, though I got to say that his shoe designs are rather dated. His boots though...are another matter. Beautiful triple stitch, stacked leather heels etc

The workmanship is there. Only issue with the Indo guys vs Western guys is the quality of leather they have. Sometimes they do get good Horween stuff but most of the time its local stuff (still good btw!) or regional produce, like Jap cordovan.

Wow my head hurts from all the info lol!

All said and done, does this mean hand welt is better than good year welt? I notice some manufacturers proudly tout their stuff as hand welt.

Handwelted stuff is the best. Its the equivalent of a hand crafted Rolls Royce compared to a production Merc.

Goodyear, Blake rapid etc are the industralisations of various traditional Handwelts. So Handwelts are basically hand crafted versions without any of the shortcuts and costs savings implemented in a factory production line. Also most of the time, premium materials are used in Handwelts due to the incredible effort already going into the shoe.

But that is only if the handwelt is executed properly. A Goodyear factory shoe is still leaps and bounds better than a poorly executed Handwelt.

Isn't norvegese the same as Norwegian welt? Interchangeable names?

This is something that is a little confusing out there lol. They are more or less interchangable in the lexicon of footwear today but still do bear minute differences in the way the stitching is done internally, the presence of a welt(or not) and the qualities different country's cordwainers have allocated to it.

Check this link out!
http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/...71-Shoes-Norwegian-v-Veldtschoen-Construction

 

[kenapa siol]

Quick check on sizing.
If im a 9.5E for 875, can a 10D 875 or 1901 "make up" for the width for my wide feet?

 

[Shalomp]

Check this link out!
http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/...71-Shoes-Norwegian-v-Veldtschoen-Construction

thanks mate! will slowly get down to it once my head stops spinning from all the info!

would u have a list of all the cobblers in sg that do resoling for Dainite soles?

 

[Shalomp]

Sometimes they do get good Horween stuff but most of the time its local stuff (still good btw!) or regional produce, like Jap cordovan.

i hear cordovan trumps Horween chromexel

 

[likehotbutter]

would u have a list of all the cobblers in sg that do resoling for Dainite soles?

Wah dainite abit rare dont think that anyone does it. Dainite has the retro appeal but its performance cant match the newer compositions . Most use Vibram now like solemann.

Replacement of a rubber outsole (like a topy) most sg cobblers can do. But if you're lf full goodyear resole there is only Ed et al.

Safer to send back to USA imo if they're a treasured pair.

i hear cordovan trumps Horween chromexel

Cordovan is just Horse butt leather haha . It dosnt crease like cowhide but rolls, very water and scratch resistant, just different characteristics and aesthetics.

But amongst the tanneries that produce Cordovan, Horween is dah best!

 

[Shalomp]

Wah dainite abit rare dont think that anyone does it. Dainite has the retro appeal but its performance cant match the newer compositions . Most use Vibram now like solemann.

Replacement of a rubber outsole (like a topy) most sg cobblers can do. But if you're lf full goodyear resole there is only Ed et al.

Safer to send back to USA imo if they're a treasured pair.

Do u know of other soles that looks like the Dainite studded soles? If there are other alternatives that are cheaper, more durable and all round better and look pretty much the same like Dainites then its worthy to go for them, no?

Oh and what do u think of Diamond Walker shoes? From their video below, they say their hand welt is better than goodyear welt. I always walk past their store in China Square but never closely examine their stuff. All seem too loud for my liking. They are Korean according to their facebook page


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqt1v4EbDiA&feature=youtu.be

 

[lty1098]

letting go my new 875 - size 10E for $360

bought in HK recently, size too big thats why wana sell away

pm me if interested.

 

[Shalomp]

letting go my new 875 - size 10E for $390

bought in HK recently, size too big thats why wana sell away

pm me if interested.

Good morning bro,

Sorry to say this but I think u got to give better price. U paid hkd 2089?

 

[lty1098]

Good morning bro,

Sorry to say this but I think u got to give better price. U paid hkd 2089?

Yeap, was in a hurry, calculate wrongly. Willing to let go at $360.