Stashaway discussion thread

[revhappy]

Just put $100 into SA, then copy their allocations in your own portfolio. Save the management expense ratio. Of course this won't be doable for everyone.

If you think Robos have some brilliant ideas of being able to time the market or secret asset allocation then nothing is further from the truth.

So you are not really paying the Robo guys for any brilliant decision making. What you are really paying them for is for the convenience of being able to transfer money and they invest on your behalf, without you worrying about doing it yourself with a broker and having to worry about th exchange rate, bid ask spreads, getting the best price etc. So mainly it is to overcome your behavioural issues, like analysis paralysis, leveraging, buying some crazy stuff, over trading etc

If you could do all this yourself, without any hesitation totally mechanically, then really there is nothing you get by copying a Robo. You could do a 3 fund portfolio recommended by Bogleheads and the likes and you will do just fine.

Unfortunately stashaway has failed here badly, the basic stuff they were supposed to do they didn't do, instead they tried to chase performance and did exactly the mistake we fear doing ourselves.

 

[tesarise]

So you are not really paying the Robo guys for any brilliant decision making. What you are really paying them for is for the convenience of being able to transfer money and they invest on your behalf, without you worrying about doing it yourself with a broker and having to worry about th exchange rate, bid ask spreads, getting the best price etc. So mainly it is to overcome your behavioural issues, like analysis paralysis, leveraging, buying some crazy stuff, over trading etc
.

This might be what you want from a robo, but it is clearly not what stashaway is trying to sell to their customers and investors

But I do agree that they messed up pretty badly.

 

[revhappy]

This might be what you want from a robo, but it is clearly not what stashaway is trying to sell to their customers and investors

But I do agree that they messed up pretty badly.

Yeah, unfortunately, if they were just honest enough and stuck to just the basics, there is a big market out there to tap. Bogleheads concept is still very very infant in Singapore. They could have just completely taken the market for themselves, without much effort, just preaching the stuff that Jack Bogle of Vanguard does. He has built a very profitable organization so it is not like doing the right thing wont get you profits.

Even now, there is this gap and unfortunately no Robo or unit trust company has come in to fill this gap in Singapore.

 

[sohguanh]

Even now, there is this gap and unfortunately no Robo or unit trust company has come in to fill this gap in Singapore.

Some investors like lotsa options. If going by the simple 3 index funds portfolio so boring every one can do no need use those robo to do correct?

Robo aka fintech are for profits company so their marketing model must be exciting to lure monies. Preaching a simple 3 index funds will not attract dollars am I right?

Analogy. It is like I go economic rice stall only 3 dishes to choose? I want many many so I can pick and everyday different dish lagi best.

 

[tesarise]

Some investors like lotsa options. If going by the simple 3 index funds portfolio so boring every one can do no need use those robo to do correct?

Robo aka fintech are for profits company so their marketing model must be exciting to lure monies. Preaching a simple 3 index funds will not attract dollars am I right?

Analogy. It is like I go economic rice stall only 3 dishes to choose? I want many many so I can pick and everyday different dish lagi best.

Yeah, unfortunately, if they were just honest enough and stuck to just the basics, there is a big market out there to tap. Bogleheads concept is still very very infant in Singapore. They could have just completely taken the market for themselves, without much effort, just preaching the stuff that Jack Bogle of Vanguard does. He has built a very profitable organization so it is not like doing the right thing wont get you profits.

Even now, there is this gap and unfortunately no Robo or unit trust company has come in to fill this gap in Singapore.

The simplicity of a 3 fund portfolio is a double edged sword for robo. If that is all they are offering, investors will just switch to DIY once they are more experienced with the investing process.

Even if someone see value in the monthly automation provided by this hypothetical robo, how much in fees are they willing to pay for the convenience?

 

[revhappy]

The simplicity of a 3 fund portfolio is a double edged sword for robo. If that is all they are offering, investors will just switch to DIY once they are more experienced with the investing process.

Even if someone see value in the monthly automation provided by this hypothetical robo, how much in fees are they willing to pay for the convenience?

How much does vanguard charge in fees? It is all about volumes. Someone like DBS digiportfolio could have implemented some very simple and charged 20bps fees. Everyone would have just rushed to it. After all low fees and convinience is also something that attracts people.

Have a look at Endowus single fund portfolios 30bps + dimensional funds, that is such a winning formula.

 

[Kojo0403]

What's your plan have you withdraw everything?

most of it.. but have left some to track how they do.

 

[duhduhduh]

I think I will wait a bit more before drawing out

 

[dappermen]

since alrdy on it, pointless to rush to "wdraw" in a haste now

 

[tesarise]

I think I will wait a bit more before drawing out

wait until? if you believe in their methodology, you should keep holding. If you don't believe, then why wait?

 

[Kojo0403]

wait until? if you believe in their methodology, you should keep holding. If you don't believe, then why wait?

most people just don’t want to realize the “paper loss”

though one can always withdraw from stashaway and open new positions hence “migrating” the loss, most investors are just biased against accepting the losses.

before stashaway exited kweb totally i actually increased my allocation to their SRI 36 because i too believe that china tech will rebound and gold will do well. but when they decided to exit kweb totally- it has deviated fro m what i believe in and pulled out most of my funds.

but back to your point- i agree that if you no longer share the same belief as SA, you should just decide now.
By the time you recover the losses from SA and exit from them, general market valuation is also likely to be higher than now- then are you going to hold cash and time the market entry?

 

[Linkenmort]

Anyway, what's done has been done. What I've learned from this whole fiasco is to just DIY. The team at StashAway have revealed a lot about themselves to their customers here.

Financial markets are more efficient that what people give them credit for. Laughable that their small team would think that they are one step ahead. Moving all my money out. Done and dusted.

 

[dappermen]

much was shared when pp tried to compare them

it is clearly who is the obvious loser
ref to posting in last oct, why r u guys still discussing SA?
who joined SA in Oct 2021or byond? for comparison purposes, u need to bring in SA, i can understand but very likely no1 should be discussing SA solely by now esp u r spoilt by so many Robos

https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/...shaway-vs-syfe.6092311/page-49#post-137461554
https://endowus.com/insights/q3-202...view&utm_campaign=291021-Update-Q3Performance

 

[Kojo0403]

much was shared when pp tried to compare them

it is clearly who is the obvious loser
ref to posting in last oct, why r u guys still discussing SA?
who joined SA in Oct 2021or byond? for comparison purposes, u need to bring in SA, i can understand but very likely no1 should be discussing SA solely by now esp u r spoilt by so many Robos

https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/...shaway-vs-syfe.6092311/page-49#post-137461554
https://endowus.com/insights/q3-202...view&utm_campaign=291021-Update-Q3Performance

interesting chart.. shows that one should just DIY into ETFs

 

[sohguanh]

interesting chart.. shows that one should just DIY into ETFs

Actually is it apple to apple comparison? Endowus is more on mutual fund while the rest are on ETF which is well known to have lower expense ratio. If the chart take expense ratio in then Endowus must be doing very great given they invest in mutual funds which typically has higher expense ratio that will impact their performance

 

[dappermen]

It will never be an apple to apple cos the robos each got their own theme eg syfe has reits theme

but we needed such a comparison!

There can never be having a pure apple to apple comparison of robos
It is better than nothing, rite??!

As for whether shd we etf, i thk it really depends on that period* and the theme we liked…. Eg i m into green and Esg…..
if certain funds /uTs offered not enugh? Then i have to seek on etfs



i am commenting this is cos i m a real true-blue robo investor! (Not all here r! Some just wanna be warriors) though i gaveup my two pf at disappting sa last yr! Way before the time i shared such interesting comparison/ chart
i believe in facts and data (though we all knw clearly that previous results/performance doesnt indicate the future! We all knew that!) only!


* the “period “ makes it a whole lots of a diffce, sorry to say
It seemed like syfe reits r the Lowest3 bottom performer??! At this period of fear of More interest-rate hikes & stagflation/inflation ….
But how abt syfe reits? (It appear to be a poor performer in normal times if u look at the chart)
The period means the time u invested as well as the era u r now situated in (rhe situational factors in play now)
My syfe reits performance is back to its past glory (oh ok, at least very near to its past top performance level)
Else? Some pf still in green but the paper “loss” is halved(though in green)


I mentioned this point too yestday (pls alwys compare and read in wholesome - dont ever zoom in to just 1 sA thread and then start to invest! We created plenty on good thread on extremely gd performing mutual funds as well as comparison of robos not for fun!)
https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/threads/syfe-reit.6196988/page-22#post-140597310

but for sure my Syfe Reits is the champion for now , just like his too

which of your Syfe Reits in the green?

Only a true-blue has resources and comparison points of various robos and brokers (be it how biased certain robo/brokers could be) nvm, just compare! U can do ur own data analysis since anyone dare to claim they r not biased at all! I m sorry to say all r biased so long u r human esp those who have no robos coming in here to comment

i knw some seniors (in experience; not age) like kojos they have vast experience in robos and etfs too
Some snrs hve mostly in mutual funds/stks eg sohguan

Lessons learnt: read up more!& in fact many of us been thru that, we alrdy suffered in advance (in bloody red) so our experience is enugh to share with u (although our risk appetite and overall investmt ideals could be entirely diff & we respected yours too)

https://endowus.com/insights/not-al..._qZF8-6h9Wfk7GcYrKm8TxpqCDZ6VQoypWr1I7h_crAAQ

 

[Kojo0403]

probably SA will add back China again soon.

things moving positively for one of the unknowns

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ccess-to-audits-of-most-firms?srnd=markets-vp

 

[zzTiny]

Add back again in such a short period of time? If Its me, I will scream and run very far away.

They have no trust in their strategy or whatever that is. They don't even trust themselves. Anyone that stay, had already accepted whatever strategy it had.

 

[creatrixnator]

Add back again in such a short period of time? If Its me, I will scream and run very far away.

They have no trust in their strategy or whatever that is. They don't even trust themselves. Anyone that stay, had already accepted whatever strategy it had.

Not everyone reads the news or monitors closely. I may have missed it. Withdrawn all except StashAway simple

 

[revhappy]

Add back again in such a short period of time? If Its me, I will scream and run very far away.

They have no trust in their strategy or whatever that is. They don't even trust themselves. Anyone that stay, had already accepted whatever strategy it had.

Stashaway did the classic rookie investor mistake which Howard Marks calls: "a 6-foot-tall man who drowned crossing the stream that was 5 feet deep on average"

"The important thing to remember about investing is that it is not sufficient to set up a portfolio that will survive on average. The key is to survive at the low ends."

https://stableinvestor.com/2017/04/never-forget-6-foot-man-drowned-5-feet.html