Will minimum wage laws work here?

[cherry6]

A Dignity wage proposal for all Singaporeans.

Thread source (HWZ): MINIMUM WAGE ISSUE
I am no politician and I am not politically inclined. In fact I have no voting rights as I was overseas on business most of the time and after missing the voting of the last presidential elections, I was deleted from the voting register and I had not gone about getting myself reinstated yet.

What concerns me is the minimum wage issue and the noise making on the minimum wage. I wonder how many Singaporeans that are being paid below one thousand that are being marginalized.

To me a legislation on the minimum wage of one thousand may result in the few hundred thousand families that are employing domestic workers to having to fork out a significant increment to their monthly expense for the foreign maids that they are employing and noting that there are a few hundred thousand domestic workers in Singapore. ( I do not have one anyway )

Next, with this increase in expenditure, it would only mean that the cost of living would rise and then this would be in contradictions to the claim of the rising cost of living.

So, should we forge ahead with the minimum wage demand into legislation.

Personally, I don't think we have more than 300,000 of Singaporeans that are having to be marginalized by the non existence of the minimum wage legislation.

We should be mindful of what we prescribed and shout about and not just the airing of an issue to rattle.

I agree that minimum wage law is like using hammer to kill an ant: indeed the ant (problem) will die (solved for now) but the table surface ( economy) will be damaged in long run ( at greater eventual cost): so minimum wage is TOO BLUNT an instrument.

For necessities, gahmen can provide poor (unemployed people) with simple allowance for prescribed activities: e.g. town council cleaner, allowance for attending class/ counselling on $ management/ simple studies : e.g. fast food preparation work, baby sitting, arranging books in library, parking summon auntie work, O- levels, etc.

On wider scale, gahmen should enact law that all companies must pay its Singaporean workforce MORE than foreign workforce on the following terms whereby any deficit shall be payable to SG gahmen and accrue towards a training fund for Singaporeans. (The amts paid however can be refunded back to the company should Singaporean's begin to earn more according to the following rough parameters.

Total eaned by Singaporeans must exceed total salary to foreign employees, PRs to be split into 2 groups, the higher earners being grouped with foreigners for purpose of calculating the 'wage difference levy' payable to gahmen.
The median Singaporean wage must also exceed median for foreigners (PR calculation as a/m): any difference in median wage being multiplied by half the employee population for the calculation of levy payable: e.g.: difference in median wage with 50th percentile foreigner earning $100 more than equivalent in citizen group for company with 50 foreign employees and equal number of local employees= $100 * 50= $5000/ month. (Refundable when company pays Singaporean group more up to total of that PREVIOUSLY paid)(tax deductible as operating costs but taxable as operating profit when refunded) (Non-refunded 'wage difference levy' goes into gahmen income should company deregister itself or after a suitable duration not exceeding 15yrs from first incorporation).
As there might be many methods of calculating the difference in salaries paid, the highest result of all calculations will be the amount payable as 'salary difference' levy.

This will ensure that EVERY COMPANY in Singapore either pays the Singaporean workforce MORE than the foreign employee workforce, or else contributes the difference in tax to the Singapore gahmen. Dignity is defined as being paid more than the equivalent foreigner employee, as such, no minimum wage limit is specified in my proposal.

2¢.

PS: if company employs 70foreigners and 30 Singaporean's, median will be calculated as median of the top 30foreigners (I.e. 15th highest paid foreigner) vs salary level of the 15th Singaporean.
If company hires 30foreigners and 70 Singaporeans, median salary =15th foreigner vs 35th Singaporean.

Every foreigner employed from maid(/construction worker) to banker/ CEO shall pay a standard employment levy of about $400/ month to gahmen . Half of all foreigner headcount levy shall be returned to citizens CPF as e.g. training fund since the employmeny levy is an implicit 'gst' like tax which translates into higher prices for goods and services.

A daily employment levy of $15 plus 33.3% earnings (approx 1.5x Max income tax rate) can be applied to ad hoc foreigner employees not on an annual pay roll (e.g. GE tai singers, performers, specialist consultants etc)

PS: this article was in major part written to counter the PAP's assertion that the 'dignity' of a person is solely determined by his salary scale, even if some/ many CEOs might subscribe to such a view.:

"If the annual salary of the Minister of Information, Communication and Arts is only $500,000, it may pose some problems when he discuss policies with media CEOs who earn millions of dollars because they need not listen to the minister's ideas and proposals. Hence, a reasonable payout will help to maintain a bit of dignity."
- MP Lim Wee Kiak apologises for comments on pay

[IMG URL]

 

[DanielTng]

A Dignity wage proposal for all Singaporeans.



I agree that minimum wage law is like using hammer to kill an ant: indeed the ant (problem) will die (solved for now) but the table surface ( economy) will be damaged in long run ( at greater eventual cost): so minimum wage is TOO BLUNT an instrument.

For necessities, gahmen can provide poor (unemployed people) with simple allowance for prescribed activities: e.g. town council cleaner, allowance for attending class/ counselling on $ management/ simple studies : e.g. fast food preparation work, baby sitting, arranging books in library, parking summon auntie work, O- levels, etc.

On wider scale, gahmen should enact law that all companies must pay its Singaporean workforce MORE than foreign workforce on the following terms whereby any deficit shall be payable to SG gahmen and accrue towards a training fund for Singaporeans. (The amts paid however can be refunded back to the company should Singaporean's begin to earn more according to the following rough parameters.

Total eaned by Singaporeans must exceed total salary to foreign employees, PRs to be split into 2 groups, the higher earners being grouped with foreigners for purpose of calculating the 'wage difference levy' payable to gahmen.
The median Singaporean wage must also exceed median for foreigners (PR calculation as a/m): any difference in median wage being multiplied by half the employee population for the calculation of levy payable: e.g.: difference in median wage with 50th percentile foreigner earning $100 more than equivalent in citizen group for company with 50 foreign employees and equal number of local employees= $100 * 50= $5000/ month. (Refundable when company pays Singaporean group more up to total of that PREVIOUSLY paid)(tax deductible as operating costs but taxable as operating profit when refunded) (Non-refunded 'wage difference levy' goes into gahmen income should company deregister itself or after a suitable duration not exceeding 15yrs from first incorporation).
As there might be many methods of calculating the difference in salaries paid, the highest result of all calculations will be the amount payable as 'salary difference' levy.

This will ensure that EVERY COMPANY in Singapore either pays the Singaporean workforce MORE than the foreign employee workforce, or else contributes the difference in tax to the Singapore gahmen. Dignity is defined as being paid more than the equivalent foreigner employee, as such, no minimum wage limit is specified in my proposal.

2¢.

PS: if company employs 70foreigners and 30 Singaporean's, median will be calculated as median of the top 30foreigners (I.e. 15th highest paid foreigner) vs salary level of the 15th Singaporean.
If company hires 30foreigners and 70 Singaporeans, median salary =15th foreigner vs 35th Singaporean.

Every foreigner employed from maid(/construction worker) to banker/ CEO shall pay a standard employment levy of about $400/ month to gahmen . Half of all foreigner headcount levy shall be returned to citizens CPF as e.g. training fund since the employmeny levy is an implicit 'gst' like tax which translates into higher prices for goods and services.

A daily employment levy of $15 plus 33.3% earnings (approx 1.5x Max income tax rate) can be applied to ad hoc foreigner employees not on an annual pay roll (e.g. GE tai singers, performers, specialist consultants etc)

PS: this article was in major part written to counter the PAP's assertion that the 'dignity' of a person is solely determined by his salary scale, even if some/ many CEOs might subscribe to such a view.:

I am a layman and I am not into the economics of derivations on how the wage system must be calculated as if I were to deft into it, I would have to do a little bit more of researching.

But What I am prescribing is that nothing can be solved by a sweeping statement.

However, whatever that we introduce for the benefits of our local Singaporeans, we must get the end results of it. I am of the generation that doesn't qualify me a the pioneer citizen and I believe this generation that lags the pioneer citizens contributed just as much if not more to the building of our nation.

To me, we must ensure that while we sort out the foreign workers brigade which in my opinion is necessary, we must ensure that loop holes must be plucked such that they are not exploited. ( I can talk about the foreign workers issue from my experience in another thread )

At the same time we must ensure that we are ensuring that our younger generations are working just as hard to earn what they deserve. At no time should we be a giving society that will award them well just because they are Singaporeans and then spoiling them and letting the productivity index dipping. Rewards and incentives should come along the way with productivity, otherwise we ended up in the failed communist ideology of equal rewards for unequal productivity. Or worse still greater rewards for lower productivity.

I came to realize that in Singapore we have a 3 wage system in place already.

I have 4 kids whom I brought from China ( 3 are children from my cousins and 1 the son of my employee ).

So I am giving an example of the bottom rung job. After 12 years of my sponsorship, they have all completed their polytechnics and University. So, they have to start their live in Singapore.

During their schooling days, the wife ( of my employee ) decided to come over to help look after the young guy and help up with the taking care of the lot - under the 陪读妈妈 scheme.

With the green card, she tried looking for a job and this is what I found out.

The same low end job, it is very difficult for her to secure a job even in the food court as a cleaner. Getting a work permit is really tough and many operators of the food stalls are finding tough to operate without adequate helping hands.

Apart from the difficulty in getting permit, the workers levy is significant and the cost is high and what happen is that these workers have to work 12 hours shift for as low as 850 for a start. And for them to earn $1,100, they would be displaced by the permanent residents ( these group are scarce. Most PR's attained a certain education qualifications. The PR's that had little educations are usually parents of the group that are better of, so do not have to go to the low end works. The stall holders are always on the lookout for Singaporean workers much even though they have only to work 8 hours and are prepared to pay 1300 or slightly more but this is hard to find. In my opinion, we do not need the government to come up with any minimum wage scheme to really tackle the low end minimum wage in fact. The employers are dying for Singaporeans to do these works as they need the numbers to allow them to employ foreigners based on the quota system. But sadly, they are not able to get the numbers to allow them to employ the foreigners desired to cater for their business. I believe many of these stall holders are Singaporeans and their failure to get the employees hurts them just like many other small and medium size businesses - the foreign labour policy hurts them much more then the labour policy to protect locals ( I am a small business operator and I can feel it. In fact, I have decided to move my business operations to China and Indonesia and even Malaysia but not Singapore ). Another reason why I found out that these people are ever willing to give jobs to the locals are that they do not have to pay for the workers levies which are significant.

So, why is that we hear people saying that the aunties cannot find any works and had to go and collect cardboards, I really do not comprehend.

1. With the difficulty in the getting of local workers, the stall holders and the food court or operators of businesses and public toilet operators have to resort to agencies for the supply of workers and I note that most of these agents exploited the workers. If a foreigner worker on a visitor pass only and without a PR'ship, they have to work 12 hours and are offered to the stalls or the other operators at $1300 for 12 hours works which the stalls and operators would be happy to pay but the agents pay this category of people only 850 - neat profit.

2. For the stall-holder or toilet operators to employ themselves, they do not match the quota and therefore are not allowed to employ the foreign worker directly. Then they have to have a guarantee in place for employing foreign workers and the paper-works and hassles are far too much for them. So they need to turn to labour supply agencies.

Thus for the local aunty that wanted a job even to clean toilet, they are not deprived and they would not be paid 850 because they are precious to the agencies and the stall-holders. I believe, many stall holders are willing to pay them $1300 or even $1500 as I have spoken to some of the stall-holders.

Turning to the cardboard collectors that are a much talk about talking point. I have come across one that I have known of and quite honestly, her family has been an average house-hold earner that does not require her to be collecting cardboards. But because, she used to do it in her early days to compliment her cleaning job to help bring up her children after her husband deserted the family due to gambling debts, she developed the attitude of doing so. I have spoken to her son and he told me that he doesn't wanted her to work as a cleaner anymore and to stay at home but she just cannot keep still and would go about with her cardboard collections which are very much against the children's wishes. He even told me that he had talked her time and again but she just does not listen and they cannot be scolding her all the time. They are worried about her safety but they have to work and cannot be baby-sitting her and keeping watch over her all the time. Perhaps, I should suggest to her son while I am writing to allow her to go back and work as a cleaner which is by far safer and thereby taking one cardboard collector off the street. ( Please note that at 10 cents per kg, she cannot be living on cardboard collects as she would need 100 kg per day if she goes on a $10 per day to service the daily needs ).

With this cardboard collectors being an issue, I think the government should scrutinize carefully on this category and find out how to look after this lot if indeed we have this category of poverty or deprived people just like how we tackle the street begging issue.

So, to me a minimum wage of 1000 would actually help the low end foreign workers and open up the deprivations of the few locals that may need a job as a cleaner. Apart from this if the agent has to pay more, the stall-holder or the operators have to pay more and this will inevitably be reflected to the price of our food court food prices. 羊毛生在养身上。 Please note that from what I have been experiencing, for any dollar that a stall holder that had to outlay more, the price increase would be significantly more.

This is my other layman insight of the minimum wage issue of 1000 which I felt should not be considered as it does not help the locals but would contribute to the locals to further suffer.

 

[Slade_Wilson]

I am a layman and I am not into the economics of derivations on how the wage system must be calculated as if I were to deft into it, I would have to do a little bit more of researching.

But What I am prescribing is that nothing can be solved by a sweeping statement.

However, whatever that we introduce for the benefits of our local Singaporeans, we must get the end results of it. I am of the generation that doesn't qualify me a the pioneer citizen and I believe this generation that lags the pioneer citizens contributed just as much if not more to the building of our nation.

To me, we must ensure that while we sort out the foreign workers brigade which in my opinion is necessary, we must ensure that loop holes must be plucked such that they are not exploited. ( I can talk about the foreign workers issue from my experience in another thread )

At the same time we must ensure that we are ensuring that our younger generations are working just as hard to earn what they deserve. At no time should we be a giving society that will award them well just because they are Singaporeans and then spoiling them and letting the productivity index dipping. Rewards and incentives should come along the way with productivity, otherwise we ended up in the failed communist ideology of equal rewards for unequal productivity. Or worse still greater rewards for lower productivity.

I came to realize that in Singapore we have a 3 wage system in place already.

I have 4 kids whom I brought from China ( 3 are children from my cousins and 1 the son of my employee ).

So I am giving an example of the bottom rung job. After 12 years of my sponsorship, they have all completed their polytechnics and University. So, they have to start their live in Singapore.

During their schooling days, the wife ( of my employee ) decided to come over to help look after the young guy and help up with the taking care of the lot - under the 陪读妈妈 scheme.

With the green card, she tried looking for a job and this is what I found out.

The same low end job, it is very difficult for her to secure a job even in the food court as a cleaner. Getting a work permit is really tough and many operators of the food stalls are finding tough to operate without adequate helping hands.

Apart from the difficulty in getting permit, the workers levy is significant and the cost is high and what happen is that these workers have to work 12 hours shift for as low as 850 for a start. And for them to earn $1,100, they would be displaced by the permanent residents ( these group are scarce. Most PR's attained a certain education qualifications. The PR's that had little educations are usually parents of the group that are better of, so do not have to go to the low end works. The stall holders are always on the lookout for Singaporean workers much even though they have only to work 8 hours and are prepared to pay 1300 or slightly more but this is hard to find. In my opinion, we do not need the government to come up with any minimum wage scheme to really tackle the low end minimum wage in fact. The employers are dying for Singaporeans to do these works as they need the numbers to allow them to employ foreigners based on the quota system. But sadly, they are not able to get the numbers to allow them to employ the foreigners desired to cater for their business. I believe many of these stall holders are Singaporeans and their failure to get the employees hurts them just like many other small and medium size businesses - the foreign labour policy hurts them much more then the labour policy to protect locals ( I am a small business operator and I can feel it. In fact, I have decided to move my business operations to China and Indonesia and even Malaysia but not Singapore ). Another reason why I found out that these people are ever willing to give jobs to the locals are that they do not have to pay for the workers levies which are significant.

So, why is that we hear people saying that the aunties cannot find any works and had to go and collect cardboards, I really do not comprehend.

1. With the difficulty in the getting of local workers, the stall holders and the food court or operators of businesses and public toilet operators have to resort to agencies for the supply of workers and I note that most of these agents exploited the workers. If a foreigner worker on a visitor pass only and without a PR'ship, they have to work 12 hours and are offered to the stalls or the other operators at $1300 for 12 hours works which the stalls and operators would be happy to pay but the agents pay this category of people only 850 - neat profit.

2. For the stall-holder or toilet operators to employ themselves, they do not match the quota and therefore are not allowed to employ the foreign worker directly. Then they have to have a guarantee in place for employing foreign workers and the paper-works and hassles are far too much for them. So they need to turn to labour supply agencies.

Thus for the local aunty that wanted a job even to clean toilet, they are not deprived and they would not be paid 850 because they are precious to the agencies and the stall-holders. I believe, many stall holders are willing to pay them $1300 or even $1500 as I have spoken to some of the stall-holders.

Turning to the cardboard collectors that are a much talk about talking point. I have come across one that I have known of and quite honestly, her family has been an average house-hold earner that does not require her to be collecting cardboards. But because, she used to do it in her early days to compliment her cleaning job to help bring up her children after her husband deserted the family due to gambling debts, she developed the attitude of doing so. I have spoken to her son and he told me that he doesn't wanted her to work as a cleaner anymore and to stay at home but she just cannot keep still and would go about with her cardboard collections which are very much against the children's wishes. He even told me that he had talked her time and again but she just does not listen and they cannot be scolding her all the time. They are worried about her safety but they have to work and cannot be baby-sitting her and keeping watch over her all the time. Perhaps, I should suggest to her son while I am writing to allow her to go back and work as a cleaner which is by far safer and thereby taking one cardboard collector off the street. ( Please note that at 10 cents per kg, she cannot be living on cardboard collects as she would need 100 kg per day if she goes on a $10 per day to service the daily needs ).

With this cardboard collectors being an issue, I think the government should scrutinize carefully on this category and find out how to look after this lot if indeed we have this category of poverty or deprived people just like how we tackle the street begging issue.

So, to me a minimum wage of 1000 would actually help the low end foreign workers and open up the deprivations of the few locals that may need a job as a cleaner. Apart from this if the agent has to pay more, the stall-holder or the operators have to pay more and this will inevitably be reflected to the price of our food court food prices. 羊毛生在养身上。 Please note that from what I have been experiencing, for any dollar that a stall holder that had to outlay more, the price increase would be significantly more.

This is my other layman insight of the minimum wage issue of 1000 which I felt should not be considered as it does not help the locals but would contribute to the locals to further suffer.

Ok, several things:
-The median salary of Singaporeans is actually higher than the median salary of foreigners. It's common just to look at expat PMETs, but the majority of foreign workers such as construction workers and maids earn far, far less than Singaporeans, resulting in the median salary for foreigners being lower. Now, let's think through how this proposal might still be made to work: what if policy instead called for the median salary of Singaporeans in PMET and STEM jobs needed to be higher than those of foreigners?

So, let's say we compare the top quintile of Singaporean earners vs. the top quintile of foreigners: once again, Singaporeans are richer. Let us remember that the top 20% of Singaporeans are cash millionaires and seem to be doing extremely well as a group. I don't really see how this could be implemented in practice. Additionally, I think we consider it a violation of our meritocratic norms if we were to make the median wage for second quintile of Singaporeans to be the same as the top quintile of foreigners. Perhaps what might be more constructive would be to just stop as much immigration as possible and propose solutions to mitigate the effects of the slowing growth and the possible flight of multinationals.

-I think the government has been increasing social spending, but I would say that there is room to be more generous. They could ensure a de facto minimum wage of SGD2000/month for every worker and top up the difference in paychecks. That would not be too bad of a solution. This, as you have said, might cause the cost of living to go up, but for food and oil prices and transport prices we are largely beholden to whichever way the wind is blowing in the global economy anyway.

 

[normality78]

Just to share...

I'm working in big company which hired quite some cleaners and security officers.

When gov started the min wages for cleaner (S$1000), my management told me to cut some of them and have the current (those survive) to cover.

Coming Sept 2016, security will be the next one (S$1100) and i've been told to start to "explore" it and go for automation if possible.

So in my case, some of them "win" and some of them "lose". If more firm start go for automation, then....

 

[1SMRTPAIB]

please write in to mom to remove minimum wage scheme for gov sector, political office holders and foreign maids. 10q.

 

[pinkpiggie]

Not so simple

I think we all here agree that minimum wage is not the answer to the problem of wage disparity here. But to add to the low wages and the influx of foreigners, let's look at why there is a high number of foreigners coming in here, and why Singapore is a rich country, but yet wages are not high.

One of the qns I often ask myself how is it Singapore is successful, but yet the businessmen in Singapore is not that entrepreneurial or savvy compared to other countries. Now, businesses and entrepreneurs are important b/cos it creates more output using the same number of resources, or creates new ways of using resources (resources here can be human labour). In Malaysia : Airasia / Genting, Taiwan : HTC, Korea : Samsung etc. Singapore famous brand would be Breadtalk, SQ, Singtel, ? Now SQ I would say wouldn't count, as that is gahmen driven. Singtel as well. In fact, out of Singapore most ppl would not know Singtel, DBS which are just local champions.

Now I wouldn't say that Singapore does not have smart ppl. Most of the smart ppl ends up in the public sector, and thus the civil service here is efficient, quick to adopt innovations. In the end that may matter more, as better public goods (e.g. parks, libraries, roads) serves ppl more effectively than businesses (such as restaurants, or electronic goods). However, the question is what makes Singapore rich then?

When I watch Lim Swee Say's interview, he was using the analogy that when Singapore tries to catch the wind of the world economy. And he was saying (together with Low Thia Khiang in WP) saying that the number of foreigners increased a lot since 2000 - the so called lost decade according to WP. What Lim Swee Say may be giving out, without saying it so, is that Singapore is partly so successful bcos of China. China joined WTO end 2001. So what happened then is that China joined the world market and created a huge demand for goods, services, everything.

Now what is Singapore main drivers of economy? According to Wiki, it is trade - electronics, chemical, petrochemical, services (mainly wealth mgmt).
So there you have it - when China grows, China consumes everything, including driving up oil prices. So oil price goes up - Singapore makes money. World trade increase - Singapore makes money being an entrepot. Wealthy billionaires & shady politicians need somewhere to park their money - Singapore makes money with the well known banking secrecy. In other words, Singapore made a lot of money for the past few years, not b/cos of the ppl here exceptionally enterprising, or created sthg which the world needs. Simply b/cos everyone makes money, we also make money.

Now that is not a bad thing. Some other countries too also enjoyed the same benefits, e.g. Australia. Australia export minerals, raw materials, so when China booms Australia also does well. That is why Aussie dollar at one point was too high.

Which comes to the point of immigration. Lim Swee Say also says that relaxation of foreign workers during the past decade is due to cater for the demand and businesses growing. But the gahmen started increasing the levy on foreign workers for the past few years to curb the inflows. And according to him the numbers has dropped a lot in the past few years (haven't seen yet WP refuting this numbers, so I take it as good). I think we see this too, where when we go to restaurants, sometimes there is a long q and the tables can't be opened up b/cos not enough ppl working for the SME. The SME can't get enough locals to join at the wages. But if were SME to offer 2-3K to a foreign worker whom can speak legible English i think they would jump at it. The typical construction and marine foreign worker earns abt 500 - 700 for a job that is dangerous and life threatening.

Now if minimum wages is implemented across the board, a lot of businesses would suffer. What they would rather do is to fold, and lay off ppl. Businesses don't care of ppl without jobs. Gahmen does. Businesses are answerable to shareholders with profits at year end. Politicians KPI is getting elected at the next election.In fact implementing minimum wage is easy for politician. They just pass a law. The ones suffering is businesses and employers for foreign workers (e.g. households etc).

The other problem is why we see a lot of aunties, uncles collecting cardboards and cleaning dishes at hawkers, or cleaning toilets. Of course this is disturbing to see. However, i don't think in other countries, it is not a qn whether old ppl work in their senior years. I think they do as well. It is just that other countries, ppl are more enterprising and have their own businesses to run. E.g. Japan, Taiwan. So you don't see so many old ppl working doing these menial jobs, as they are not so visible in public.

So the solution may be how to create jobs for these groups of ppl so that they can earn a living with dignity. Neither do i think that paying singaporeans more would help compared to foreigners. What companies would do is to lay off ppl. Also, how necessarily does a singaporean earn that higher wage? setting such a rule can set the biz backwards. In Malaysia , Chinese tends to think that Malays (the bumiputras) are overly protected by the BN government. So any promotion is must because of quota. so i do think a solution must be able to address all these issues

 

[joharn99]

.....
minimum wage of one thousand may result in the few hundred thousand families that are employing domestic workers to having to fork out a significant increment to their monthly expense for the foreign maids...

I believes what Min wage are meant for Singaporean and PR only. Especially those who contribute to CPF.

Common sense tells me that min wage not meant for Work permit holders such as Foreign Construction workers and foreign maids.
That why labour laws such as annual leave dont apply to them.

 

[pinkpiggie]

Easy to implement, but repercussions unknown

I believes what Min wage are meant for Singaporean and PR only. Especially those who contribute to CPF.

Common sense tells me that min wage not meant for Work permit holders such as Foreign Construction workers and foreign maids.
That why labour laws such as annual leave dont apply to them.

You are partly right there. But i think there is already minimum wage for 2 industries 1) cleaning industry at 1K, 2) security guard industry at $800. I think the govt choose that as these are the industries singaporeans still work that is with low wages.

But let's see what happens if we implement minimum wage across the board, but only for singaporean and PR.

i think, doing that is easy. all it needs is MOM telling all employers that salary increased to let's say 2K for all singaporeans + PR. what is hurts the most is employers, and subsequently singaporeans + PR themselves. here's why

let's say, the auntie cleaning plates are doubled for their salary from 1K to 2K. however, in the cleaning industry, we also hv the foreigners whom are non singaporeans + PR. let's say these group of ppl are omitted then. what can possibly happen might be

1) compensation of employees would be based on being singaporean / PR but not based on performance. when such things happen, it causes unhappiness, and resentment among workers. of course, these happens all the time, as some workers are paid more, whereas some others are paid less. e.g. english league clubs paying more for english players, but paying less say for players from africa. but now, it is out in the open where everyone knows about it, and the foreigners would be saying, why should they work so hard, when they are paid 1K, but the singaporeans + PR are paid 2K.
remember the time when PRC bus drivers strike bcos they claim they are paid less compared to drivers from other nationality? Well, the govt sent them back and rightly so. But in china, these news are sensationalized.
remember also the time when in little india when there is riot? british press analyse this as resentment due to disparity and bottled up unhappiness of foreign workers in singapore.
now, we may say that screw them, after all they chose to come here to work. but being the case that singapore is a very open economy, and i think a large part of the economic growth comes from china, negative publicity hurts us. when chinese tourists shy away after the MH370 flight crash, retailers here are swatting at flies even during GSS.

2) let's say that the foreign workers suck it up and still choose to work then with the lower pay. but would they work just as hard? it would go on their mind, someone else is being paid double, and they can't get that pay even if they work hard, so why bother.

3) if let's say, things stay as they are, whom would the employer choose to hire? singaporean + PR at 2K or the foreigner at 1K? it would be much cheaper to hire a foreigner which comes at half price. again, this backfires on singaporean + PR, which although paid higher, but then less jobs to get.

4) of course, then u may say a quota can solve all that. yes, but let's look at the repercussion. when someone is paid higher, economic sense tells us that pay relates to production or productivity. but if the pay is just jacked up, with productivity stays the same, then someone is losing out here. so, if all the singaporeans + PR pay is doubled, but the number of plates they cleaned up is the same, then the question is whom is paying?

it would seem like the answer here is the employer, as they are getting the same amount of revenue, but cost of wages is going up higher. so what employers tend to do (similar with my company), is that they let people go, or they don't hire new ones even when people quit. so suddenly, u end up doing 3 or 4 people's work, just bcos company doesn't want to hire as it is not profitable to do so.

5) even if let's say that all these worked out well, someone else would be bearing the cost. chances are, here it would be consumer. so, if the employer of the cleaners charge more, if the food court accepts it, they pass on the cost say rental (i am just supposing here), then suddenly u will find more expensive food with the same serving everything the next day.

like what i pointed out, it is pretty easy to set the bar, but then the implications wouldn't be pretty.
i was watching some tv show based in japan. there is an old lady, about 80+ still working, weaving cloth. so yes, in silver population country like japan, they still work even till they are very old. maybe it is in their culture, maybe they are talented, and able to produce something which is special. it could be a combination of all the above.
the problem here in singapore, is that there are very few cottage industries here. maybe, it has to do with singapore small population, where if u come out with anything, there is no sizeable market to sell to. but if, (here is a big if), these group of people can be trained to produce and run a small business, then there is no need for minimum wage, as they can earn as much as they can produce.

 

[DanielTng]

You are partly right there. But i think there is already minimum wage for 2 industries 1) cleaning industry at 1K, 2) security guard industry at $800. I think the govt choose that as these are the industries singaporeans still work that is with low wages.

But let's see what happens if we implement minimum wage across the board, but only for singaporean and PR.

i think, doing that is easy. all it needs is MOM telling all employers that salary increased to let's say 2K for all singaporeans + PR. what is hurts the most is employers, and subsequently singaporeans + PR themselves. here's why

let's say, the auntie cleaning plates are doubled for their salary from 1K to 2K. however, in the cleaning industry, we also hv the foreigners whom are non singaporeans + PR. let's say these group of ppl are omitted then. what can possibly happen might be

1) compensation of employees would be based on being singaporean / PR but not based on performance. when such things happen, it causes unhappiness, and resentment among workers. of course, these happens all the time, as some workers are paid more, whereas some others are paid less. e.g. english league clubs paying more for english players, but paying less say for players from africa. but now, it is out in the open where everyone knows about it, and the foreigners would be saying, why should they work so hard, when they are paid 1K, but the singaporeans + PR are paid 2K.
remember the time when PRC bus drivers strike bcos they claim they are paid less compared to drivers from other nationality? Well, the govt sent them back and rightly so. But in china, these news are sensationalized.
remember also the time when in little india when there is riot? british press analyse this as resentment due to disparity and bottled up unhappiness of foreign workers in singapore.
now, we may say that screw them, after all they chose to come here to work. but being the case that singapore is a very open economy, and i think a large part of the economic growth comes from china, negative publicity hurts us. when chinese tourists shy away after the MH370 flight crash, retailers here are swatting at flies even during GSS.

2) let's say that the foreign workers suck it up and still choose to work then with the lower pay. but would they work just as hard? it would go on their mind, someone else is being paid double, and they can't get that pay even if they work hard, so why bother.

3) if let's say, things stay as they are, whom would the employer choose to hire? singaporean + PR at 2K or the foreigner at 1K? it would be much cheaper to hire a foreigner which comes at half price. again, this backfires on singaporean + PR, which although paid higher, but then less jobs to get.

4) of course, then u may say a quota can solve all that. yes, but let's look at the repercussion. when someone is paid higher, economic sense tells us that pay relates to production or productivity. but if the pay is just jacked up, with productivity stays the same, then someone is losing out here. so, if all the singaporeans + PR pay is doubled, but the number of plates they cleaned up is the same, then the question is whom is paying?

it would seem like the answer here is the employer, as they are getting the same amount of revenue, but cost of wages is going up higher. so what employers tend to do (similar with my company), is that they let people go, or they don't hire new ones even when people quit. so suddenly, u end up doing 3 or 4 people's work, just bcos company doesn't want to hire as it is not profitable to do so.

5) even if let's say that all these worked out well, someone else would be bearing the cost. chances are, here it would be consumer. so, if the employer of the cleaners charge more, if the food court accepts it, they pass on the cost say rental (i am just supposing here), then suddenly u will find more expensive food with the same serving everything the next day.

like what i pointed out, it is pretty easy to set the bar, but then the implications wouldn't be pretty.
i was watching some tv show based in japan. there is an old lady, about 80+ still working, weaving cloth. so yes, in silver population country like japan, they still work even till they are very old. maybe it is in their culture, maybe they are talented, and able to produce something which is special. it could be a combination of all the above.
the problem here in singapore, is that there are very few cottage industries here. maybe, it has to do with singapore small population, where if u come out with anything, there is no sizeable market to sell to. but if, (here is a big if), these group of people can be trained to produce and run a small business, then there is no need for minimum wage, as they can earn as much as they can produce.

Personally, the cry for the legislation of minimum wage is nothing more than political agendas to raise as there are not many issues that the people can cry about due to lack of information and in depth understandings so as to raise a legitimate suggestion or improvement to policies and this is the easiest subject to be shouting at.

As I have given the examples of the cleaner and the foreign maids and if I may add the security guards, the people that wanted to promote the call for legislations must have the in-depth knowledge of the circumstances as what I have presented and the facts and figures of the amount of people affected before we started shouting allowed. Calling of legislation changes must be properly calculated and substantiated and not just on imaginative figures and the numbers that are suffering.

As I say, my understanding is that the employers die to have local such that they can get additional quotas for foreigners and foreigners are important as we do not have enough numbers of our own nationals to do these works which the vast majority of our people are not keen in doing. The same goes with the security guards. It is not the employers desire to just employ cheap security guards if they can get Singaporeans. In fact from what I have studied, a lot of problems are from the security guards themselves - internal jobs. Thus, a Singapore security guard employer would rather employ a Singaporean than a Malaysian for if they did something, they disappear into Malaysia and then the Company is in big trouble.

Next, the government should in as far as possible not interfere with the market forces and let the market prevails and not by legislation. Legislation that cause the employer to having to pay their workers the required amount when they do not perform is bad and this may result in the employers getting rid of the locals instead. Then if with the legislation, the employee with the minimum wage of 2k for local Singaporean started to play punk, then is it fair to the employer to having to pay them this amount just because they are Singaporeans.

To me, the government can help with each category of local workers by their registering with the town council with their seeking for a job of as cleaner, security guards and or any other category and the town councils registering online with the Manpower Ministry and when employers seeking work permits for foreign workers in that category has to first employ the locals. The employment contract can be evaluated by the Manpower Ministry to ensure that the locals are given a fair deal and that they are not manipulated so as to employ foreigners only. The employer that takes in the placements by the Manpower Ministry would then be considered priority in the obtaining of foreign workers.

Then, the Manpower Ministry must also be attentive of the problems of these locals and making sure that they are productive based on the Singapore wages. It should not be a legislative figure but a figure that will take into considerations the absence of employee levies etc. I am sure, the employers would want to employ these locals at higher rates such that they are entitled to employ foreigners.

I object to the government or the Manpower Ministry restricting the employment of foreigners as in certain industry whereby there are no locals that are willing to take the jobs but the business cannot function because the businesses having problem taking in workers and employees. Anything that is sweeping and across the board is bad.

A legislation whereby the minimum wage is applicable to locals only are bad and this is sensitive as the nationals of those countries can pressure their government to put pressure on us during trade pacts or labour issues. This is not something new. The Indonesian government had ordered the freezing of the domestic workers heading to Malaysia for issues which they felt are unfair to their nationals and we must not leave any ground for anybody to hold us on ransom so as to garner better benefits for their nationals who are working here. A crisis of the barring of foreign maids to Singapore till we gave them equal benefits as per the legislated minimum wage would harm many middle class families who needed these foreign domestic workers to tend to their chores when both husband and wives having to work.

The oppositions can cry many issues and agendas but those are political cries which the government succumb and this is bad for the economy and the interest of the people and the business sectors. For every business that cannot operate, it takes away the employment opportunities of the locals that could serve as managers and supervisors, marketing executives and/or business developments etc and unless we have sufficient foreign companies to give employment to this category of people with the many that may lose their jobs due to folding businesses, we have more super qualified taxi drivers or security guards which the opposition is blaming onto the government. Policies if badly applied had negative chain effects and could be harmful.

So, on the one hand we scream at the government on the foreign workers policy and demanding the curb and when the government succumb to the political pressures and obliged, the many businesses that cannot function folded and then executives and senior staffs of these businesses ending up without a job especially when they are in their late 40's. These people managed the local businesses based on experience and more often having no big degree or paper qualifications and would therefore finds it difficult to get a managerial or senior position with the foreign company and then the finger pointing of the government for not protecting the locals and allowing these foreign companies to employ foreigners instead of locals or the other blame of the government for causing the rise in super qualified taxi drivers and security guards and not protecting the local interest.

I believe whatever we want the government to prescribed must be measured and well considered as these people are offering themselves as a voice to the people and perhaps as alternatives and must therefore be responsible and not crying out to blind the people and garnering political mileage. People that works against the interest of the people with cries that are for political mileage alone cannot be our voice in parliament as it is their political interest that they care about and not the interest of the people.

Next, for wages issues, the government should let the market forces and the employees unions play its role. Let them act in between the employee and employers. If not the unions will lose its purpose.

However, without the minimum wage mess around, the Manpower Ministry should act to make sure that preference be given to the locals that wanted the job while making sure that the market is allowed the sufficient numbers to satisfy the requirement.

Government policies must be in placed for the good of the country, the people and the economic well being and not fearful of unpopular decisions which will give rooms to the oppositions to shout and make issues out of. If the government were to succumb to these demands, the people in office are not better than the people that are crying out just for political mileage, then they are no better than the people that are making such cries. Ultimately, it is the well being of the country, the people and the society at large that the politicians that should aspire to serve and not making mountains and exaggerations for political mileage.

People want to talk of issue must offer solutions and not for any other agenda or criticism to smear the policy makers.

This is how we can help with our society and solve problems regardless of whether we support or are oppositions. One has to note that oppositions are legitimate when they are really out to serve the people but not crying for political mileage only and when they know that they do not even do in-depth studies or understanding of the basic and fundamental issues and the negative effects that their sweeping statement for legislations that will affect the people or to cause other people ( local people ) and businesses to suffer.

Government can protect the interest of the people but should not interfere in the setting of limits and wage scale to the private sector. This succumbing to opposition political cries are easy way out but are not solutions and should be avoided and I strongly oppose to this and detest their introductions.

Any people that calls for this sweeping legislative changes must do a certain amount of data gathering and satisfy that whatever legislative enactment - has all sectors - pros and cons and ill effects properly considered before these are allowed into legislation.

Next, a legislation should only be allowed to be put in place when the governing body having done its thorough studies of the effects on all sectors and not for mere succumbing to opposition pressures. Government should not be afraid to make unpopular decisions while serving the interest of the majority and shall have measures in place to cater for the minority that could be affected by the legislation. Government should not be cowards. They are there because of the mandate of the people to serve them and should not have fear of the unpopular decisions which may "impact" their votes. I do not agree that unpopular policies will impact their votes. What that will impact their votes are that the reasons, pros and cons and the benefits and ills of the decisions are not properly promulgated to the people.

We have the medias, we can have professional talks and forums, we can disseminate facts and figures in term of phamplets to the mass public and seek feedbacks etc. Allow the opposition to debate the issues publicly and convince the people of the benefits of such policies and how it will benefit them and not harm them and the negatives that affects the minority are addressed and taken care of.

 

[fishbuff]

hard truth.

 

[Sure Win Bo?]

Why are there still kumgong sinkies believe in minimum wage?

In America, the average minimum wage is 7-8 USD/hour. While a Venti cup of Starbucks costs around 7 USD and a Extra Value Meal at Macdonalds cost about 6 USD.

America is one of the biggest exporters in the world, thus, they can afford to sell Starbucks and Macdonalds at the price of their minimum wage.

In Singapore, almost EVERYTHING is imported. So what should we set the minimum wage to be, like 9-10 SGD? And when we finally have the minimum wage being implemented, should business owners also increase the price of their products? Those sinkies that say no, then explain who should bear the cost of raising their employees' pay?

I believe such sinkies are also expecting ginna pis who are doing simple jobs like working part-time in a mini-mart and giving out flyers to be earning 9-10 SGD an hour? While cleaners and plumbers who are doing menial jobs, earning the same as those ginna pis?

When those who used to earn peanuts for simple part-time jobs are now earning as much as those blue-collared job workers, do you think those blue-collared job workers would still want to continue doing what they are doing?

America is already a good example of how the "minimum wage" has been killing jobs. People who were once lazy to work, are now trying to find easy job that pays them as much as what the rest of the nation are earning, while those who are earning a slightly higher pay, now feels that it's unfair that they are earning as much as the rest who are doing a lot lesser work than them. People are quitting their "professional jobs" to work in jobs that are less taxing for the same pay.

So if you think that minimum wage is good? You must be retarded to think so

 

[pikafunk3]

One problem is that you need to pay too much for people doing too simple jobs

Sent from ... using GAGT

 

[gysiang]

One problem is that you need to pay too much for people doing too simple jobs

Sent from ... using GAGT

At what level of pay is too much for simple jobs? $7 or $8?

 

[Dr.KongHee]

our min wages ish can laugh until the pant drop one. LOL!

 

[Sure Win Bo?]

One problem is that you need to pay too much for people doing too simple jobs

Sent from ... using GAGT

Precisely why minimum wage is bad. If a cleaner is earning 10 bucks now, and after minimum wage is introduced, the cleaner would rather quit his/her job to work in Macdonalds or give out flyers instead. Because who would want to clean toilets and floors when they can do something simpler and less dirty for the same salary. In the end, Who will takeover those Singapore's cleaner jobs after they all resigned? I certainly hope it would be those Liberals who keep screaming "UNFAIR UNFAIR".

 

[RocketRocket]

Progressive wages
Employers can tan ku ku the "progressive" for your wages and low ball your starting wages.

Minimum wages
Your minimum wages is your maximum wages, there is no need for progressive, employers already given you your "minimum required"

 

[Sure Win Bo?]

our min wages ish can laugh until the pant drop one. LOL!

Hello, since when Singapore got min wage? If you want to pay 10c to someone per hour also can. If the person is not happy, he can go MOM to complain.

 

[Sure Win Bo?]

Progressive wages
Employers can tan ku ku the "progressive" for your wages and low ball your starting wages.

Minimum wages
Your minimum wages is your maximum wages, there is no need for progressive, employers already given you your "minimum required"

At least progressive wage push for improvement?

Anyone who takes the minimum wage can **** care their job and just continue to take their salary every month.

Which is worse?

 

[GBC]

Hello, since when Singapore got min wage? If you want to pay 10c to someone per hour also can. If the person is not happy, he can go MOM to complain.

Mom Progressive Wage Model is not minimum wage for workers in the cleaning, security and landscape sectors ?

 

[gysiang]

At least progressive wage push for improvement?

Anyone who takes the minimum wage can **** care their job and just continue to take their salary every month.

Which is worse?

most silver serpants have the exact same attitude leh. **** care about their job and just take salary.