Will minimum wage laws work here?

[zuoom]

Honestly. What are those jobs that are paid below 1300?

 

[evildoer]

Im totally for helping the more needy..

What im more concern about is, as the cost (say hawker food) will most likely be passed on to the consumers.. the needy will also need to eat there.. thus getting min wage may not actually give them more purchasing power.

u must remember the more involving in business that uses low wagers workers.. they more it will build up your expenses

So ur meal budget increase by $30.69 Based on 3 meal x 31 Days x 33 Cents increase

your condo conservancy charges increase by
$14.00 (Cleaning)
$4.00 (Landscaper)


So if we all chip in we can have a fairer society... but i think getting every singaporean to agree to bear the increase cost for minimum wages . is more difficult than landing on the moon...

 

[evildoer]

Honestly. What are those jobs that are paid below 1300?

i also don't know.. the company i working now .. already paid our cleaners more than 1300..

 

[pureice]

just go download MOM data lor - they got show in June 2019 for sgreans + PR 28K people with monthly less than 1k, and breakdown by sector/job scope also.

Vietnam/myanmar/china also has minimum wage, the core problem is when you implement it, it will produce unemployment for lower income. Are we ready to accept that? the current workfare is it not adequate? A more targetted approach with good data is needed. Rather than just a blanket policy of 1.3k.

 

[bakuten]

That's flawed. The point is, workers who contribute enough of a margin more than $12 an hour (based on my example) value in value will be fine. Businesses will pay them because the exchange will be worth it. Workers less productive than that will not be employed, because companies won't be able to afford to take the loss. They will be replaced through automation, or the work flow will be redesigned to eliminate the need for those jobs. Something will be done so the business isn't losing money and survive. That's the natural evolution. The businesses that don't figure it out will go out of business. SME bosses who pass those costs directly to customers, or want the same thing you're claiming customers should do are just being greedy or lazy.

If we do have a moral obligation to help low income workers, whatever measures taken to help need to actually help. They can only do so if they operate within reality. However, it will fall on deaf ears since the feel good emotional anti-SJ caricatures will still have the majority of folks condemning a rise in salary and not caring about the consequences. In any case, those who want the $12 minimum could help, if it doesn't get implemented, by tipping.

U are right...i was just pointing out everybody want to help low wage earners but never think enough.

First reaction is always govt must do this govt must do that.

The more important question with minimum wage argument. Is. "Then what?"

Myopic policies tend to ignore what next and only focus on the immediate issue.

That was what caused the brain drain in the first place when govt anyhow import FT to take up PMET jobs with little to no consideration to the question "Then what?"

Myopic policies tend feel good at the beginning but cause havoc in the long run.


And ya lor...for those who really feel that strongly about low wage earner....ask yourself....when was the last time you tipped the cleaner auntie or uncle?

Pls dont come virtue signal trying to push your own beliefs onto others while doing nothing yourself.

 

[theMKR]

you do have your points. But just because it hasn't been implemented in non oil rich countries doesn't make it impossible.

Resources we can draw could be from using the nations reserves to stick in some investment. Guess we could even take more from the top.

Spread the wealth a bit more.

Everyone works hard and played their part in building the nation. It's time everyone gets to enjoy some of the nation's success and keep on hustling.

our national reserves are built by labor tax. this is significantly different from nations which reserves are mainly from their natural resources.

natural resources guarantees a valuable asset class. while human resources is a variable.

Therefore using the reserves should be the LAST choice and not given out freely like UBI....

 

[Swisspers]

Example
Food stall assistant Total Wages : 1,200
Min Wage: 1,300
Increase by $100. What is the impact to consumer?

Assume 1: food court stall hire 1 assistant. Cost increase = $100
Assume 2: Staff sells 100 bowls of food per day = 3,000 bowls per month (100 X 30)
This works out to $0.033 per bowl (100 / 3,000)
Assume 3: Eat one bowl per meal per day. $2.91 per month (0.033 X 3 X 30)
Median wage for Singapore: $4,563
Impact of increase to Singapore worker: Less than 0.01%(2.91 / 4,563)

MOM
<Source: https://stats.mom.gov.sg/Pages/Occupational-Wages-Tables2019.aspx >

Median income
2019: 4,563
<source: https://stats.mom.gov.sg/Pages/Income-Summary-Table.aspx >

1. If the food stall assistant wages is $1,200, the stall owner will be paying $1,404 including 17% employer cpf contribution. The food stall assistant will take home $960 after employee cpf contribution.

2. The assumption is that this food stall only hires 1 assistant to run the entire stall by himself.
If that's the case let's assume this food stall opens on Mon-Fri for lunch and dinner, & Sat for lunch. The assistant is required to work from 10.30am - 2.30pm (Mon-Sat) and 5pm-9pm (Mon-Fri), inclusive of preparation and cleaning time.
This will be a total of 44 hours per week. https://www.mom.gov.sg/employment-practices/hours-of-work-overtime-and-rest-days
In the month of July 2020, the staff would have worked 192 hours.

3. The assumption of 100 bowls of food sold per day is unreasonably low. Let's assume the stall sells 25 bowls of food per hour, from 11am-2pm & 5.30pm-8.30pm.
In the month of July 2020, the stall would be opened for 144 hours, with an expected total of 3600 bowls sold.

4. If the min wage is set at $1,300, the stall owner will need to pay $1,521 (including 17% employer cpf contribution) in wages. The food stall assistant will take home $1,040.

5. In order to maintain the same profit margin, all things being equal, the additional price each bowl of food will need to be sold at $117/3600 = $0.0325 per bowl.
However we all know that prices will not be increased by $0.0325 per bowl. Most likely it'll increase by $0.20 per bowl, or a 6.67% increase in food price.

6. There's no point in comparing this price increase to the median wage. What's the point? You might as well compare this price increase to the highest income bracket to show no discernible impact.

If the point of min wage law is to help low wage workers, then this price increase should be measured against the wages of low wage workers instead.

Therefore, the food stall assistant is going to take home $80 more due to min wage law.

However, since each bowl of food is going to cost $0.20, then the total increase this food assistant will spend on food is $0.60 x 31 = $18.60 (3 meals a day in the month of July 2020).

So out of $80 increase in salary, $18.60 is already spent on food. How about the rest of his other spending? Town council cleaning fees go up? Telco fees go up? Transportation? School fees? Groceries? Utilities? etc etc

 

[NTB2DO]

just go download MOM data lor - they got show in June 2019 for sgreans + PR 28K people with monthly less than 1k, and breakdown by sector/job scope also.

Vietnam/myanmar/china also has minimum wage, the core problem is when you implement it, it will produce unemployment for lower income. Are we ready to accept that? the current workfare is it not adequate? A more targetted approach with good data is needed. Rather than just a blanket policy of 1.3k.

Ask them to upskill or learn new skills that can meet market needs lor. Isn't that what skillsfuture is for?

 

[evildoer]

Ask them to upskill or learn new skills that can meet market needs lor. Isn't that what skillsfuture is for?

i wonder if there is any success story using skillsfuture...? i want to try it out...


but those that draw a salary below the minimum wages ,probably are elderly ... some might have no formal education .. probably in their 60+.. how kind of skill can you give them... and with that skill they are can get job above the minimum wages ?

 

[Poomer]

Ask them? JT? She's busy fighting the FW cases don't disrupt her minimum wage.
In reality no way to force employer pay minimum wage other than fines and jails. Gov can help maybe by supplementing the wages of the lowly paid. The money come from 9% GST. This is more sustainable. That's the link. No blank cheque.

So you rather give a man fish everyday than to teach him how to fish? Very shortsighted lei.

 

[hardwaregone]

Thanks for taking the trouble to explain in such great details. (Frankly it seems rather complex, takes me a while to understand the mechanism. )

As per your suggestion, yes, govt could compliment by adjusting the qualifying eligibility for the schemes to offset the perceived loss of income (in the form of assistance) received by the low wage workers.

As for the domestic workers and bangla.. frankly I'm not sure how we are gonna resolve this.. But, as I've mentioned, as cheap labour supplier countries gradually progress economically, it's a matter of time before we have to pay higher wages to hire such workers.. Plus, I was wondering, there are many developed countries who need not rely on cheap domestic workers and bangla as much as we do.. yet their cost of living is not much higher than ours - considering that SG is already among the most expensive cities to live in.. Perhaps we could take a look at how they made it, emulate and tailor it to suit our needs?

Those countries that could do it without maids are plenty, infact which other countries can have so many elderlies having maid?

However, most of those countries, may not have the same life expectancy. One of the easiest way an elderly could die is by falling down. Singaporeans are living longer because they are simply better taken care of. There are schemes to buy grab bars, hire maids, etc. This is enough to pull up the life expectancy by quite a bit.
If minimum pay is somehow inclusive of foreigners, then life expectancy and quality of living for the old will be lower as surely a lot of people will not be able to afford hiring them. Of course the law can just exclude these foreigners to be included to the minimum wage, but that may draw a protest from various embassies and international agencies.

The only country that I think on similar grounds and did it better are the Japs, but in Japan, the old people are rich and fetches a better pay than the younger ones. The govt also pour a lot of money for them. This is unique and it's hard for us to replicate over a short term and it contains a Japanese spirit which we don't possess. Matter of fact, from PAP's campaigns and strategy, the old are often seen as the burden of the society with not much dignity or use.

As for the other countries, most have an abundant population to take the caregiver jobs. PAP's approach is to replace the declining core population with imports. Importing FT/FW does generate crazy amount of revenue for the government, look at how much levies, GST, ERP, income taxes collected from these pets. And they can micromangage who to bring in to fill which sector. They think it works from the top, but they don't see how the bottoms sees it.

As you can see, the whole system is wired to each other and they have deeper roots in the ground than what we can see on the surface. If WP wants to try tampering this system now, loosening one screw may collapse the whole thing and the blame will be on them. I will personally advise them to look into other matters or find ideas to complement the existing system, improve its efficacy than to give it a shake.

Eventually we may have to do away with maids, as the developing countries get richer. But we may still be way richer than them or we could be getting maids from other sources. Also by the time it happens, automation and AI might be mature enough to replace caregivers. Automation and AI are definitely the next big thing in the coming decades. Exoskeleton suits, home automation and many things you may never imagine now maybe become the norm in future. Just like how PMDs are suddenly appearing. The future will be taken care by the technology and people in the future.

 

[NTB2DO]

1. If the food stall assistant wages is $1,200, the stall owner will be paying $1,404 including 17% employer cpf contribution. The food stall assistant will take home $960 after employee cpf contribution.

2. The assumption is that this food stall only hires 1 assistant to run the entire stall by himself.
If that's the case let's assume this food stall opens on Mon-Fri for lunch and dinner, & Sat for lunch. The assistant is required to work from 10.30am - 2.30pm (Mon-Sat) and 5pm-9pm (Mon-Fri), inclusive of preparation and cleaning time.
This will be a total of 44 hours per week. https://www.mom.gov.sg/employment-practices/hours-of-work-overtime-and-rest-days
In the month of July 2020, the staff would have worked 192 hours.

3. The assumption of 100 bowls of food sold per day is unreasonably low. Let's assume the stall sells 25 bowls of food per hour, from 11am-2pm & 5.30pm-8.30pm.
In the month of July 2020, the stall would be opened for 78 hours, with an expected total of 1950 bowls sold.

4. If the min wage is set at $1,300, the stall owner will need to pay $1,521 (including 17% employer cpf contribution) in wages. The food stall assistant will take home $1,040.

5. In order to maintain the same profit margin, all things being equal, each bowl of food will need to be sold at $117/1950 = $0.06 per bowl.
However we all know that prices will not be increased by $0.06 per bowl. Most likely it'll increase by $0.20 per bowl, or a 6.67% increase in food price.

6. There's no point in comparing this price increase to the median wage. What's the point? You might as well compare this price increase to the highest income bracket to show no discernible impact.

If the point of min wage law is to help low wage workers, then this price increase should be measured against the wages of low wage workers instead.

Therefore, the food stall assistant is going to take home $80 more due to min wage law.

However, since each bowl of food is going to cost $0.20, then the total increase this food assistant will spend on food is $0.60 x 31 = $18.60 (3 meals a day in the month of July 2020).

So out of $80 increase in salary, $18.60 is already spent on food. How about the rest of his other spending? Town council cleaning fees go up? Telco fees go up? Transportation? School fees? Groceries? Utilities? etc etc

1. Employee's CPF contribution is still employee's money. It will go back to employee ultimately. So it's not right to base you calculation on take home pay alone.

2. From sharpsnappers figure (see below), the below-min-wage earners constitute just (100k/1.97m)x100% =5% of the entire SGean labour force. What is the likelihood that price will increase extensively (telco la, transportation la, sch fees la, etc etc) just because of paying that 5% a few hundred dollar more?

Let me give some real numbers.

The WP says there are more than 100,000 Singaporeans who earn a take-home pay of less than $1,300 a month while engaged in full-time work.

There were 2.33 million residents in the labour force as of June 2019, comprising 1.97 million Singaporeans and 360,000 PRs. Jan 23, 2020

Important number is 1.97 million Singaporeans.

Minimum wage is only for low income Singaporeans. This is to benefit 0.05% to 0.1% out of 1.97 million Singaporeans. Many of you think that your coffee, chicken rice and fast food prices all go up. Go and think harder what is the overall composition of business cost compare to the wages of low income workers.

 

[theMKR]

i wonder if there is any success story using skillsfuture...? i want to try it out...


but those that draw a salary below the minimum wages ,probably are elderly ... some might have no formal education .. probably in their 60+.. how kind of skill can you give them... and with that skill they are can get job above the minimum wages ?

the hardtruth about SG is.

Here have a very strong, "eat not full, hungry not die" policy.

basically to survive between 2k and 5k is quite a norm. As long as you willing to work hard, work long, work anything, you will not go hungry.....

however, if u want to break thru that 6-7k barrier..... all those govt policies doesnt help....

 

[Poomer]

U are right...i was just pointing out everybody want to help low wage earners but never think enough.

First reaction is always govt must do this govt must do that.

The more important question with minimum wage argument. Is. "Then what?"

Myopic policies tend to ignore what next and only focus on the immediate issue.

That was what caused the brain drain in the first place when govt anyhow import FT to take up PMET jobs with little to no consideration to the question "Then what?"

Myopic policies tend feel good at the beginning but cause havoc in the long run.


And ya lor...for those who really feel that strongly about low wage earner....ask yourself....when was the last time you tipped the cleaner auntie or uncle?

Pls dont come virtue signal trying to push your own beliefs onto others while doing nothing yourself.

I'm a strong advocate for a minimum wage. But your idea of tipping a low wage earner is quite ridiculous.

How much can you help them? You can help one, you can help all? You can help today does than mean you can help tomorrow? A social issue should be dealt with in a systematic way, a little bit here and there will get your nowhere. Seems pretty myopic to me.

 

[WC32890]

the hardtruth about SG is.

Here have a very strong, "eat not full, hungry not die" policy.

basically to survive between 2k and 5k is quite a norm. As long as you willing to work hard, work long, work anything, you will not go hungry.....

however, if u want to break thru that 6-7k barrier..... all those govt policies doesnt help....

At gov job is to give you a kickstart ma. That's where the 2-5k jobs are for. After that its up to you liao. Cannot be expecting gov help all the time ma. Gov don't owe you a living leh....

 

[Hierophant]

Moi ish say no to minimum wage cus things will just become more sexpensive

 

[decibel.]

the hardtruth about SG is.

Here have a very strong, "eat not full, hungry not die" policy.

basically to survive between 2k and 5k is quite a norm. As long as you willing to work hard, work long, work anything, you will not go hungry.....

however, if u want to break thru that 6-7k barrier..... all those govt policies doesnt help....

That's why you still need to upskill and have a Singaporean first policy that gives priority to Singaporeans instead of balancing it out with foreigners. The current scale is tilted to which side, I believe everyone in the mix would know.

Sent from HUAWEI VOG-L29 using GAGT

 

[NTB2DO]

i wonder if there is any success story using skillsfuture...? i want to try it out...


but those that draw a salary below the minimum wages ,probably are elderly ... some might have no formal education .. probably in their 60+.. how kind of skill can you give them... and with that skill they are can get job above the minimum wages ?

Skillsfuture concept itself is fine, but they really should ensure that the course offered are relevant enough to meet market needs.

As for the elderly (old but not too old to work), not all jobs require high level of literacy, off hand I can think of is child-tending job eg help looking after children in childcentre by say preparing their meals, or looking after older folks in aged home, etc.

 

[Swisspers]

1. Employee's CPF contribution is still employee's money. It will go back to employee ultimately. So it's not right to base you calculation on take home pay alone.

2. From sharpsnappers figure (see below), the below-min-wage earners constitute just (100k/1.97m)x100% =5% of the entire SGean labour force. What is the likelihood that price will increase extensively (telco la, transportation la, sch fees la, etc etc) just because of paying that 5% a few hundred dollar more?

1. Whether the employee can use his CPF eventually is a separate discussion and up for debate.

I'm sure the main objective of min wage law is to improve the immediate living standards of low wage workers, not 20 years later.

2. If you have noticed, a 2% increase in GST didn't increase prices by just 2% in 2007. Companies tend to round up the numbers or exploit the situation by raising prices. Again, whether this is ethical or not is for a separate discussion but the observation on the ground is that companies will increase prices, and not just proportionately.

 

[hmsweethm]

Why do ministers and their affiliated persons seems like always got the skills for the jobs, but yet cannot perform, can brush it off to other people’s fault?
Yet commoners like us, need to go thru and attend those skills upgrading courses。。。