Will minimum wage laws work here?

[RAWR!!]

exactly. min wage is just 懒政, or lazy governance. poverty? so easy, just raise min wage lor. it's a blunt tool without solving the underlying productivity issue.

if min wage is superior, the gov could've just give in and legislate it when it's so much simpler to implement. why 自讨苦吃 and go for progressive wage model which is more difficult to implement?

other countries don't have the same level of execution power as our civil service/govt machinery. just because they opt for the easier route of just legislating min wage doesn't mean we have to follow them.

progressive wage model can channel more funds into the govt before redistribution. Give you reason for raising taxes and GST.

Then again, min wage is just to tackle the lowest tier of the PWM from what i have seen from MOM website. the rest of the tiers are above $1,300.

 

[ponpokku]

I read before that local company profit is a higher percentage of revenue compared to us companies.

Perhaps companies should earn lesser?

sg employee income % to GDP ish low. most dev-ed countries the wage share ish about 60-70% of GDP. means ppl get to share the wealth of economic prosperity...

sg ish much lower. chinese saying, 囯富民窮, rich country/govt, poor ppl.

In terms of familial relations, the trend of declining marriages and increasing divorces has persisted over the last two decades while the median age of first marriages rose. Total fertility rates have continued to fall, from 1.6 in 1997 to a low of 1.2 in 2016. Surveys conducted by the Ministry of Social and Family Development and National Family Council found a growing proportion of Singaporeans expressing that long working hours have impeded them from spending desired time with their families. Among married respondents, the number attesting to being satisfied with their marriages fell. Issues of family violence appear to be on the rise, with the number of domestic abuse cases nearly doubling from 2012 to 2016. This suggests that despite overall increases in household income, the institutions of marriage and family appear to be deteriorating.

On individual wellbeing, a cross-country survey found Singapore ranking the lowest in terms of job satisfaction, with senior executives emerging as the unhappiest (Chua, 2016). With average annual working hours of 2,371 in 2016 – exceeding that of other East Asian economies such as Korea (2,113) and Japan (1,719) – Singaporeans face the longest working hours globally. In this context of rising dissatisfaction, the number of mental health related issues have grown. Suicide rates increased by 23 percent from 2000 to 2016. Mental health disorders are on the rise, with the Institute of Mental Health reporting an average increase of seven percent in the number of new patients annually. Singapore is found to hold the lowest levels of social trust among developed countries. These indicate that while living standards have improved through increased employment opportunities, new forms of mental distress and social distrust have emerged due to increased competition stimulated by the emphasis on growth and productivity.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/internationaldevelopment/2018/10/19/the-dark-side-of-a-successful-developmental-state-singapores-socioeconomic-dilemma/

 

[Mugenpower78]

just be prepared to pay more taxes if minimum wage is implemented.

 

[SGMale]

saf only got 70K personnel including regular, but can say got 200k nsf. and nsf can consider unemployed.

satki logic by jelly quitter.

NSF not only army leh. Got civil defense, auxiliary police, navy, airforce and etc.

 

[NTB2DO]

pls, go expand your horizon. there are developed countries with no min wage. sweden, switzerland, denmark, norway etc.

https://www.investopedia.com/articl...developed-countries-without-minimum-wages.asp

and you realize SG is one of the rare few of the developed world that have very low unemployment and have seen real income growth over the past decade, while many other developed countries have stagnant or even declining real income even for the middle class?

if min wage so satki, how many developed countries have seen their bottom 20% have a real income growth of 40% over the past decade?

Read more at https://www.todayonline.com/singapo...productivity-decline-spells-out-ruling-partys

Err.. you got read the link your ownself posted or not? Do you know why minimum is NOT NEEDED (yes it's not that they don't want, but they don't need it)? Come, let's study their cases one by one:

From your linked article:

KEY TAKEAWAYS
Most developed countries with no legal minimum wage still have wage minimums set by industry through collective bargaining contracts.
Some such countries with no legal minimum wages but extremely robust union memberships are Sweden, Iceland, Norway, Denmark, and Switzerland.
However, the truth is most developed countries with no legal minimum wage still have minimum wages set by industry through collective bargaining contracts. The majority of their working populations are unionized. These unions negotiate a fair baseline pay rate on behalf of the participating workers so the government does not have to do it.

Since each industry may require vastly different things from its employees, it makes sense the minimum wage varies from business to business. Five developed nations without legal minimum wage requirements are Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, Norway, and Switzerland.

Sweden
Sweden is often touted as the poster-child for abolishing the minimum wage. However, the Nordic nation using a Nordic model is certainly no free-market free-for-all. Instead, minimum wages are set by sector or industry through collective bargaining. Their currency of choice is the krona.

Nearly all Swedish citizens belong to one of about 60 trade unions and 50 employers' organizations that negotiate wage rates for regular hourly work, salaries, and overtime. The minimum wage tends to hover near 60% to 70% of the average wage in Sweden.

Denmark
Relations between workers and employers in Denmark have been deemed downright harmonious due to the lack of a federally mandated minimum wage.

Once again, trade unions take care of ensuring that workers are paid a reasonable wage and seem to be doing a fine job of it, keeping the average minimum wage across industries at a healthy $20 per hour.

Iceland
Iceland does not receive very much attention except for its breathtaking scenery. However, this tiny island nation consistently ranks among the happiest countries on earth, along with every other nation listed here, because of its low crime rates, high wages, and happy, healthy populace. People like to retire there.

Employees in Iceland are automatically enrolled in trade unions, which are responsible for negotiating baseline salaries for the industries they represent.

A recent Gallup poll showed nearly unanimous support for a plan put forward by the Icelandic Professional Trade Association to increase the negotiated minimum monthly wage to ISK 300,000, or roughly $2,233, within the next three years.

Norway
Norway is yet another northern nation that has eschewed a federally mandated minimum wage in favor of having union-negotiated wages set by industry. Norwegians enjoy good job security, healthy wages, and ample vacation time.

Basic hourly wages vary by industry. However, unskilled workers in the agriculture, construction, freight transport, and cleaning industries, for example, earn minimum rates ranging from $16 to $21 per hour, with increases based on experience and skill level.

Switzerland
Switzerland saw a proposal for a legally enforced minimum wage soundly rejected in 2014. The decisive vote against a $25 per hour base salary was touted as evidence the Swiss do not want or need government intervention, which might cause low-wage workers to lose jobs if employers are unable to pay more.

However, Switzerland also relies heavily on trade unions and employee organizations to negotiate fair wages for each industry, meaning 90% of the Swiss earn more than the proposed minimum anyway.

 

[NTB2DO]

i know of coz.. but what it's suggesting is not Babysitter (for 1 or 2 children).. but a job that overseeing children safety, and needs ... that could be 10 children or more in a group.. how can an elderly cope with that.. it's a very physical demanding job...

No lah. I'm not saying letting the senior single-handedly take care of a large group of children, but help in the tending of the child - example I mentioned is to help prepare meals.

And I understand there's a fixed teacher/caregivers to child ratio for childcare centre to adhere to. More children, more teachers/caregivers are needed.

 

[Misuta]

NSF not only army leh. Got civil defense, auxiliary police, navy, airforce and etc.

entire saf include navy airforce lah. each cohort of sinkies 40k, half of them male, 2yrs also 40k.

so can breakdown how u get 200k NSF? considered unemployed?

 

[Misuta]

Err.. you got read the link your ownself posted or not? Do you know why minimum is NOT NEEDED (yes it's not that they don't want, but they don't need it)? Come, let's study their cases one by one:

From your linked article:

it's the same as PWM what. no legal min wage, but soft industrial min wage.

https://dollarsandsense.sg/is-the-p...an-alternate-and-better-form-of-minimum-wage/

and 80% sinkies earn above $2500 which is almost twice of the proposed $1300 min wage.

 

[NTB2DO]

it's the same as PWM what. no legal min wage, but soft industrial min wage.

https://dollarsandsense.sg/is-the-p...an-alternate-and-better-form-of-minimum-wage/

and 80% sinkies earn above $2500 which is almost twice of the proposed $1300 min wage.

Which leads to the question: why are we still seeing 100k local workers earning below-min-wage salaries then?

 

[Misuta]

Which leads to the question: why are we still seeing 100k local workers earning below-min-wage salaries then?

the local workforce is 2.3m. 100k out of 2.3m is 4.3%.
the swiss example u cited just now have around 10% earning below their proposed min wage.

However, Switzerland also relies heavily on trade unions and employee organizations to negotiate fair wages for each industry, meaning 90% of the Swiss earn more than the proposed minimum anyway.

and obviously any proposed min wage have to be above a certain percentage of the workforce to be effective; meaning there will always be sinkies earning below any proposed min wage.

 

[NTB2DO]

the local workforce is 2.3m. 100k out of 2.3m is 4.3%.
the swiss example u cited just now have around 10% earning below their proposed min wage.



and obviously any proposed min wage have to be above a certain percentage of the workforce to be effective; meaning there will always be sinkies earning below any proposed min wage.

In order to answer your question, I tried to find out Switzerland's minimum wage level (perhaps it's far higher than our criteria for setting min wage?).

Interestingly, here's what I found:
https://www.minimum-wage.org/intern...s no official,per month for skilled employees.

witzerland Minimum Wage, Labor Law, and Employment Data Sheet Switzerland Minimum Wage Rate 2020

Switzerland has a government-mandated minimum wage, and no worker in Switzerland can be paid less then this mandatory minimum rate of pay. Employers in Switzerland who fail to pay the Minimum Wage may be subject to punishment by Switzerland's government.

What is the Switzerland Minimum Wage?
Switzerland's Minimum Wage is the lowest amount a worker can be legally paid for his work. Most countries have a nation-wide minimum wage that all workers must be paid.

While Switzerland has no official minimum wage,a majority of the voluntary collective bargaining agreements contain clauses on minimum compensation,ranging from 2,200 to 4,200 francs per month for unskilled workers and from 2,800 to 5,300 francs per month for skilled employees. Switzerland's minimum wage was last changed in Jan-1-2014.

How does Switzerland's minimum wage compare to the minimum wage in other countries?

Switzerland's yearly minimum wage is $15,457.00 in International Currency. International Currency is a measure of currency based on the value of the United States dollar in 2009. There are 8 countries with a higher Minimum Wage then Switzerland, and Switzerland is in the top 4 percent of all countries based on the yearly minimum wage rate.

Don't ask me why investopedia (ie the link you posted) said Switzerland doesn't implement minimum wage.

 

[traderF35]

So you rather give a man fish everyday than to teach him how to fish? Very shortsighted lei.

You got the wrong idea liao. Not to give a man fish but to supplement his fishing lah. Suppose the man catch one fish and everybody say one fish cannot survive so the Gov help by supplementing him one more fish lah. If the man don't go fish then that supplement will be nothing lor.

You see the whole picture? So this Gov supplement come from 9% GST where everybody pays. That's very fair tio bo. So like that no blank cheque mah. Never never issue blank cheques.

 

[pohw0008]

Actually workfare itself already uses alot of taxes if not more..

Workfare is helping those who earn $1200 to $1500 most though.. by giving them $4k yearly.. those earning less than $1200 will get proportionally lesser.. which doesn't help those of lower wages...

Instead min wage of let say $8/hr will be more useful to those low wage who get $5/hr as a cleaner..

just be prepared to pay more taxes if minimum wage is implemented.

 

[Poomer]

You got the wrong idea liao. Not to give a man fish but to supplement his fishing lah. Suppose the man catch one fish and everybody say one fish cannot survive so the Gov help by supplementing him one more fish lah. If the man don't go fish then that supplement will be nothing lor.

You see the whole picture? So this Gov supplement come from 9% GST where everybody pays. That's very fair tio bo. So like that no blank cheque mah. Never never issue blank cheques.

if u keep importing cheap foreign fish, how local fisherman compete?

do not forget the supplementary fish is not forever. anyway why give handouts when we should encourage them being paid a living wage.

the gov also can implement minimum wage and help companies that are badly affected with tax breaks. same same what. how is this any diff from workfare?

 

[Daftandnaive]

Mw has nth to do with tax. Giving social welfare is

just be prepared to pay more taxes if minimum wage is implemented.

 

[Daftandnaive]

They can implement for all, doesnt change anythijg for those earning more than 1.3 which is 90%

Pruss 1 again,

What if minimum wage is implemented to all? Cost of living will go higher right? to implement or not both must have overall policy to balance it out ar but then i not expert so i just say say only.

 

[Misuta]

In order to answer your question, I tried to find out Switzerland's minimum wage level (perhaps it's far higher than our criteria for setting min wage?).

Interestingly, here's what I found:
https://www.minimum-wage.org/intern...s no official,per month for skilled employees.


Don't ask me why investopedia (ie the link you posted) said Switzerland doesn't implement minimum wage.

your own citing from 4th paragraph:

"While Switzerland has no official minimum wage,a majority of the voluntary collective bargaining agreements contain clauses on minimum compensation"

it's kinda like PWM lah, government mandated but not legislated into the law for all industries.

eg; gov can reject cleaning business license if you pay cleaners too low.

Progressive Wage Model for the cleaning sector
Cleaning companies have to meet the Progressive Wage Model wage and training requirements for cleaners who are Singapore citizens or permanent residents.

What is it
The Progressive Wage Model (PWM) for the cleaning sector was developed by the Tripartite Cluster for Cleaners (TCC).

The PWM comes under the Cleaning Business Licence scheme administered by National Environmental Agency (NEA). Cleaning companies must meet the PWM requirements to obtain or renew their licences.

The PWM requirements:
Are mandatory.
Cover all Singapore citizens and permanent residents employed in outsourced cleaning jobs.

https://www.mom.gov.sg/employment-practices/progressive-wage-model/cleaning-sector

What’s the minimum wage in Switzerland?
Interestingly, there’s no national minimum wage in Switzerland - although cantons are free to set their own laws, and one is currently looking to enforce a minimum wage. More on that later.

When it comes to Switzerland as a whole, there was actually a referendum in 2014, which proposed the introduction of a CHF22 national minimum wage. It's the equivalent of over USD22, or just about EUR19, far higher than the minimum wages on offer in the rest of Europe or North America. However, the vote rejected this move decisively. One important reason given was that the majority of people already earned above this level in Switzerland, making the measure unnecessary.

..

Despite the failure to introduce a standardised minimum wage in Switzerland, there are already protections for workers. One element of this is collective agreements which are in place across some sectors, and can cover minimum salaries.

Collective agreements are made by employers and trade unions and may be on a company, industry, regional or national level. This means that in effect, there are minimum wages in some, low-income industries and jobs.

The national government also maintains the right to enforce standardised employment contracts, which would cover minimum wage, if they believe that an employer is undercutting wages. This approach offers a degree of protection for workers, to make sure that they’re paid fairly for the work they do.

https://transferwise.com/gb/blog/minimum-wage-guide-switzerland

 

[evildoer]

No lah. I'm not saying letting the senior single-handedly take care of a large group of children, but help in the tending of the child - example I mentioned is to help prepare meals.

And I understand there's a fixed teacher/caregivers to child ratio for childcare centre to adhere to. More children, more teachers/caregivers are needed.

That’s fair ....

 

[SkyShroud]

jin funni
ts is not realizing his idea is the same as everyone getting degree
what did the 61% voted ministers say?
dont get degree!

 

[Why so serious]

They can say however bad the gov is...but actual fact is, we experienced good wage growth in this last 10 years. Abiet not equally across the population, but definately better than a lot of developed countries

this is probably the worst among all the developed countries.